Sue Denim

I promise this is not meant to attack you and I only mean well but you might want to be careful with how you're phrasing things. As it stands, your reply does sound homophobic even though you may not have meant to be. ' I actually thought he's gay but I kept watching because of the chemistry.' implies that you will not have watched if he was gay, if not for the chemistry he has with the actor playing the FL.' I hope you can understand where I come from.

Ha ha ha...This is so funny...His family or friends don't want to be verbal punching bags so they stay away...Funny

I think they were also referring to her interactions with their flatmate too though.

He puts Flora first in every situation because he can afford to, is the point! Flora's priority is work and Luan Nian's would've been the same when he was her age. If not, he can afford to have other priorities because irrespective of whether he is close to his family or friends, he comes from wealth, he has people to fall back on if things don't go his way.
Also, I don't understand the context behind adding how close they are to their friends and family is to this. If you're referring to the fact that the FL has better relationships with them compared to the ML, even then you're only supporting my point that the Fl has that too to lose! If the the ML doesn't have good relationships with the same, then he's not really going to lose that is he?

The male apologists on here are insane. I can bet anything nobody would be defending the ML as hard if it weren't for the fact the actor playing him is conventionally good looking. Let that sink in.
I agree the FL proposing marriage seemed out of place as if she was trying to 'fix' the relationship by marrying him. You don't fix a relationship with marriage. However, the stuff that he was saying at the matchmaking event was bang out of order! It wasn't just harsh words like previously, it was character assassination! He was attacking her self respect. 4 years and he still doesn't trust her. He stalks her. Weird. People are going on about how the FL didn't reveal she was his girlfriend to her ex but it's easy for him and you all to say! He has nothing to lose! She has everything to lose!

I have clarified many a time what I meant by using the term. It's exhausting. My position has never changed though because if it did, we wouldn't still be having this argument where I disagree with you and we would be on the same side which we aren't.

'That's never going to happen, the best people can do is learn to do better.' I feel bad you haven't seen good enough people then. And you're at it again with your assumptions about people and how they are.

You know what? I think I should adopt your MO of hyper fixating on a term or clause that touches a nerve in a comment one makes and gaslight you into believing what you meant was something that you didn't, irrespective of whether you clarify yourself later on or not and see how that makes you feel. You said, 'you need people and to be in close relationships in order to overcome triggers and issues.' I'm going to assume that what you meant by that is that you should get into relationships with people for them to fix your issues. I am going to be in complete denial about the clarification you gave in the previous reply and keep repeating what you said when you first mentioned this again and again. Don't come at me for the same now because that's exactly what you did.

This is laughable. Have you really decided to ignore the entire conversation and cherry pick one line from it? He said more and worse you know.

This! Luan Nian's instinctual reaction was for his ego to be hurt not concern for his partner!

I am not going to respond to you reiterating that I have changed what I meant because I specifically asked you where the hell I did that and you have not answered me but instead just repeated what you were saying like a broken tape recorder.

Hurt people hurt people is your takeaway. Hurt people especially should NOT be hurting people is mine.

We need to stop this problematic idea that getting into relationships with people will somehow miraculously 'fix' you. It is not a partner's nor friend's job to fix you! That's selfish. You seek professional help from a therapist or a counsellor if you have issues not get into a relationship.

Well then you have a different idea of what telling people to 'Give it a rest.' could mean. Where I'm from, telling someone to 'give it a rest' after they've given their opinion, judgemental or not, is condescending and patronising.

Also, to say, 'You don't have to be perfect to be loved' is not an excuse for repeatedly making the same kind of mistakes. Yes, you don't have to be perfect to be loved because nobody is so it doesn't actually carry as much weight as people think it does. It's like whenever people make mistakes, they say, 'They're only human, after all' to excuse their behaviour. There seems to be a lot of 'harsh words spoken-apologise-forgiven' in the drama when LN being as smart as he claims to be should've realised by now that his greatest enemy is his own tongue! But no, he has to make the same mistakes again and again and the male apologists in the comments have to rush to his defence with the show's slogan which the showrunners have intentionally put in there so as to legitimise the happy ending. His immediate reaction, whether he meant to or not comes across as he being annoyed at the fact she was capable of dealing with situation by herself in the best way possible. Before you come at me for not pointing out the mistakes from the FL, let me tell you now I have my reservations about her as well, it's just that we are talking about today's episode's events and this would get too long.

Exactly. Your partner should come first before your own insecurities.

Exactly! @Amastris Dratwka in order to prove her point is only making it worse! Even from a parent irrespective of whether this occurs commonly, does not make it right.

I don't need to. I was talking about male-female relationship dynamics which are different to parent-child relationship dynamics which I really hope you'd agree with because otherwise that'd be really weird. Even if I follow through with what you're implying, I have stated in my reply,
'I accept people have reflex reactions to situations whether positive or negative but it does not necessarily imply that it is the right thing to do. We need to identify these behaviours and make a conscious effort to overcome them not just accept it for what it is.'
Your reflex reaction to someone who has been sexually harassed should NOT be to use harsh words and make it about your insecurities irrespective of whether it is or not. We need to introspect and rewire ourselves if it is.

I love your confidence with you saying 'Prehistoric men and women might beg to differ with all your studies.' as if you've actually met these 'prehistoric' people and they've said they disagree with me. Also, they are NOT MY studies. But, there is no point having a rational discourse with you who genuinely thinks their beliefs carry more weight than academic sources that have been written by geneticists, peer reviewed and published in journals. Seriously? I can't lie, you genuinely remind me of MAGA.

Yes, the whole drama is a lesson about how communication is key.

You're right. He did apologise later. However, if everyone here 'gave it a rest', 'Comments' wouldn't need to exist on MyDramaList, would there? So I would appreciate if you differ in opinion and add without being condescending.

Finally someone who got the actual point that I was trying to convey! Thank you! We have BUILT a society that enforces these behaviours! They are not genetics as some people here are claiming. People really need to BUILD the ability to think critically too. Are there any studies or research that supports these claims or are they things we have always 'assumed' to be true?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I am not pitting women against men. In fact, it was meant to relieve men of pressure just as much as it was criticising stripping women of agency. What I wanted to convey in the original comment was to question societal conditioning that makes us believe things to be facts when they are in fact assumptions. There are no direct scientific genetic studies proving that men are "meant" or hardwired by DNA to protect women. So your claim (and many others believe so by default) that it is in their genetics to do so is incorrect. Studies on human traits show that behavioural differences between sexes are statistical averages rather than strict genetic rules, and culture i.e. society shapes how people act. Broad reviews of genetic and twin studies indicate that the vast majority of human behavioural and physical traits do not have unique, sex-specific genetic blueprints. I can give you links to the articles and research papers to back my claims unlike the commonly believed about notion that you have raised.
I accept people have reflex reactions to situations whether positive or negative but it does not necessarily imply that it is the right thing to do. We need to identify these behaviours and make a conscious effort to overcome them not just accept it for what it is.
In your last sentence, you have just said what I said differently. Independent doesn't mean being alone. You're right and I didn't insinuate that it was. I was implying that men feel that if a women is independent it means she should be good alone which was exactly what LN in the drama said word for word!
However, I do agree he did apologise for his reaction at the end of the day but it seems to be a lot of doing the same thing-harsh words spoken, apology, forgiven. I don't know about you but I believe even though one may not explicitly say so, when you apologise you are indirectly promising them that you won't repeat the same mistake again because you realise what you did was wrong. Why would you apologise if you think you were right? Yet, he does repeat his behaviours time and time again. But, I guess my last point is subjective because people may not share this same belief as me.

Shang Zhi Tao should've told Luan Nian about being sexually harassed. But that man has no tact whatsoever! Even when a woman is in her most vulnerable state, are harsh words all he had to say to her? I have seen this in media so many times, 'Did you think I wasn't good enough to protect you?', 'You don't need me if you're this independent'. The way men make it all about themselves even in such circumstances is disgusting. It's not about you for God's sake! Why do men feel so emsaculated when women protect themselves anyway? Media itself is partly to blame for all this. We need to stop telling men that protecting is their primary function in a relationship. Relationships are about good companionships.

You never 'asked' what I actually meant, actually. You assumed what I had meant and then went off on that tangent.
To say that I have changed what I meant by the original comment is laughable because I repeated my intentions with it time and time again. However, because you made an assumption in your head on what it meant and were offended by the same, you're unable to digest that my intent could've been different and now think I have changed something. What on earth have I gone back on?

I'm glad you brought up the ML and his father's relationship. You said you don't have a father like that but you 'understand' him. Lucky you. I actually had a toxic father, so in theory, shouldn't I 'understand' his behaviour more than you? As someone who had toxic parents themselves, I would forever never 'understand' why they themselves would treat their own child, partner or anyone else the way they were treated. Do they suddenly forget how that made them feel? Why would they want anyone else to go through what they did? The ML treats the FL like his father treated him. Why, just why, would you treat your partner like your child anyway?

'You don't have to be perfect to be worthy of love'. Of course, that's true. If the converse were true, nobody would be worthy of love because nobody's perfect. So it doesn't really mean anything as deep as people make it out to be. However, I do believe you shouldn't bring baggage from the past into your relationships. If you have baggage, deal with it and get over it before you get into a relationship. Your partner does not deserve to be dealing with that. What kind of love is selfish like that? Again, I think this a difference in values so you may differ.

This reply seems a lot better than your previous ones. However, it is a bit rich coming from you to talk about nuance when you were the one hyper-fixated on a term in the original post throughout this discussion instead of again listening to your own advice about 'Sometimes it helps to put your self in the shoes of other people' because you made an extreme assumption about what I meant by it when I didn't. I don't know what scope for discussion you were talking about if you had made your mind up about me and my comment already?

You said, 'The story is not done developing for one, viewers are very supportive of the FL'. However, it did not feel that way at the time I posted the original comment-similar to how you felt when you said there's only been 1 incident but you were talking about it at the time of posting and not the present.

You do make a good point that by making the ML less toxic than he was in the novel, it convinces most other viewers why the FL stays in this dynamic for six years before she finally leaves.

I think that relatability is what makes us root for fictional characters and stories. When we see people defending the same characters, it ultimately gives us too the validation for our behaviours. You said you understand them. I don't. I cannot relate to either of them.

Even if I take your advice to put myself in their shoes seriously:

If I was the FL:
I wouldn't be getting into any sort of relationship with my boss.
If I did get into a relationship with my boss, I wouldn't let them belittle me.
If they were belittling me, I would break up with them.
If I broke up with them, I wouldn't go back to them.

If I was the ML:
I wouldn't be getting into any sort of relationship with my subordinate.
If I did get into a relationship with my subordinate, I wouldn't let them feel like they weren't as good as me.
If they wanted to break up with me, I would respect them and not harass them about it.

So if I well and truly 'put myself in their shoes' I would be bashing them left right and centre. It is the fact that 'not everyone fits in somebody else's shoes' that at least helps me accept that people can be complicated even if I don't understand them. I accept, but I don't understand.

P.S. People contain multitudes for sure but are complex people necessarily more realistic? I don't think so. Though complex people may be your reality so that might be subjective. This wasn't meant to start another argument. I can see now we clearly have very different views and values probably as a result of different life experiences.