BL Compilations

poorly done slice of life

Overall: I would advise starting it at ep 5 34 minutes and you'll avoid a whole bunch of random child characters. This is from the same production company that made: Ai Long Nhai, Coffee Melody, With Love and Second Chance. 10 episodes about 40 minutes long aired on GagaOOLala and iQIYI.

Content Warnings: past death/grief, blood, bullying, hit/kick/punch, transphobia mentioned, intimate partner violence, drug addiction

What I Liked
- Khana and Pao (who had almost no screen time)
- how Barbie called out those bullies in ep 1
- good discussion of how if you are queer you are held to a higher perfection standard, you have to represent all queer people and can't make mistakes/learn like non-queer people*
- supportive friends
- Tin told his mom off

Room For Improvement
- boring, nothing really happened, scenes dragged on for too long they felt randomly thrown together at times
- Tin is maybe supposed to be in university but acts like he's in middle school, comes across as whiny and immature and he didn't know what a boner was???
- too many characters including children, lack of development with main characters specifically Kana and Pao
- *the trope of a hypersexual trans woman
- not into the Park/Tin dynamic, the cold/angry/reluctant guy hitting the peppy/persistent/harassing character, in ep 2 also Park randomly was flirty at one point which was an odd shift, Park later had a personality transplant in the second half of the series and was super flirty which was better
- comedy sound effects didn't make things funny, I didn't laugh once
- ep 1 started with a voice over/exposition dump
- why doesn't anyone called an ambulance, they just stand around shouting and that cpr technique was terrible

Question - what does Tin Tem Jai mean,? Tin is a character's name, internet searching says 'tem' is 'to do' or 'to make' and 'jai' is 'heart'.

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To My Angst

Overall: season 1 was a romance so I was hoping in season 2 to learn more about the backgrounds of the two leads, have some character growth (specifically Ji Woo getting better at communicating), some fluff and some realistic drama (i.e. the public finding out about their romance and fallout from that). Instead we got...angst and character regression instead of growth. If someone wants to avoid 9 episodes of angst, then I'd suggest just watching episode 10. I really dislike when one character is a huge jerk to the other character for a long time because then I'm not happy if they are together at the end due to all the pain that was caused. Once you break a glass, even if you put it back together, it will never be the same. Watched on Viki (also Gagaoolala)

Content Warnings: gaslighting, grief

What I Liked
- the cute scenes
- episode 10 (except for the very last two lines), enjoyed the callbacks to the first season
- acting
- music (wish we had vocals for the intro though)
- the supporting characters from season 1 that returned in season 2 (and wish they had had more screen time/depth for their characters)
- talking about Ho Min's decision was funny (I looked up the actor)

Room For Improvement
- Ji Woo, I am so disappointed that instead of character growth we got character regression. Breaking up via a sticky note and ghosting someone (on their birthday no less) after a year of dating is inexcusable. Then Ji Woo has the gall to name his restaurant "I'm Waiting For You". Ji Woo lies to Seo Joon and is extra cruel by telling Seo Joon that it's Seo Joon's fault their relationship doesn't work before eventually admitting it was Ji Woo's fault/insecurities. No amount of grief or introvertedness excuses his actions (I know people who are extremely introverted and they all manage to communicate with their significant others)
- Seo Joon needs to learn about respecting boundaries - I realize this was supposed to be romantic but it felt like harassment to me
- non logical/realistic plot things/responses - is a celebrity having a fear of loud noises a huge scandal??? I don't understand this at all. Another is, what a terrible detective. It took 1 year to figure out that Ji Woo was in the town where he grew up/where his parents used to live, wouldn't that be the first place to look??? Also what was the motivation for who posted that story about Seo Joon?
- the cliche ex, this added nothing for me
- the kid, if they were shown babysitting a friend/relative's kid and talking about how they wanted their family to be in the future that would have been awesome, but this character seemed tossed in to add additional drama
- the frequent time jumps back and forth made it feel disjointed and confusing, wish they had told this in a linear fashion
- the explanation for Seo Joon's phobia was underwhelming
- I wish they had had a short recap of season 1 at the beginning of episode 1
- the intro with season 1 short scenes and instrumental music wasn't my favorite intro

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wish they had modified the plot/protagonist slightly

Overall: Fumiya is one of my least favorite protagonists ever which is unfortunate because the other parts of this series were well done. 6 episodes about 25 minutes each. Aired on GagaOOLala and Viki.

Content Warnings: manipulation, gaslighting

What I Liked
- cute moments
- acting
- production value

Room For Improvement
- Fumiya, I disliked him right away because breaking up with someone on their birthday is an a**hole move. The flashback in episode 5 didn't redeem Fumiya. Because we haven't seen Ritsu forgetting a whole bunch of events and Fumiya never communicates, Fumiya is an unsympathetic character. Then instead of character growth he continues with terrible communication skills by lying and gaslighting Ritsu over a long period of time. In episode 5, Fumiya snoops and then eavesdrops on Ritsu's conversation with his friend, again no character growth.
- what a terrible brother for going along with that and then a terrible friend for telling Ritsu he should hear Fumiya out. Ritsu had every right to be angry and sit with his feelings for awhile. Fumiya should have texted an apology/explanation and then left Ritsu alone.
- plot holes/unrealistic things such as would a hospital really discharge a patient with a head injury that quickly? It seemed less than 12 hours, wouldn't Ritsu look back at his old photos/texts, talk to his friends/family, he just accepts that odd living situation???
- the subpar kissing for two grown men who are in an established relationship
- cliche 'they met when they were younger'

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so much potential

Overall: this series could have been a 9.5 for me with the amount of potential but the writing didn't deliver. 8 episodes about 25 minutes each, 2 episodes per week. Aired on Viki https://www.viki.com/tv/40439c-boys-be-brave and on GagaOOLala (in Macau, Hong Kong & Taiwan) https://www.gagaoolala.com/en/videos/4231/boys-be-brave-2024-e01

Content Warnings: harassment, punch/fight

Watch Suggestions (takes out love triangle and focuses on cute parts)
- watch the beginning of ep 5 to 3:30 (when Jung Ki Sub was a little kid and explained why he acted like he did when people asked him out)
- watch episode 8 25:30-end (for when they first met)
- watch episodes 1 & 2
- episode 3 skip 23:20-24:30
- episode 4 watch 5:30-9:30 and 10-15
- episode 5 watch 4:20-15
- episode 6 watch 6:30-16:30, 24:20-end
- episode 7 watch 3:30-5:40, 17-27:30
- episode 8 watch 6:30-9, 21-25:25

What I Liked
- the friend relationship
- direct communication when it happened
- funny moments
- switching perspectives
- character growth with main couple
- end of episode 3
- one of the best hugs ever

Room For Improvement
- what we saw at the beginning of episode 5 needed to be shown much sooner so I could have rooted for the main couple's relationship, it felt like the 1 guy was playing games
- needed to get rid of the mostly cliched female character and family drama to focus more on the two couples
- the second couple had wasted screen time, also 1 character was cruel in the past and in the present and the other was content to be a doormat, needed a better explanation in the past and more/faster character growth in the present, then an unsatisfying ending
- 'because the writer said so' stuff, why would a character be so open to a woman he just met when his characterization up to that point has been more closed/prickly, why does a character go from punches/hate to being a simp
- most of episode 7 was wasted on family drama, episode 8 had a ton of wasted screen time too
- beginning of episode 8 was extremely choppy with a multitude of flash backs/forwards, characters in different locations

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gave me a headache every time

Overall: the plot did not plot. Watched uncut on GagaOOLala. Also aired cut/uncut on WeTV and cut on YouTube (they cut the NSFW scenes). 10 episodes about 40 minutes each. MFlow Entertainment also produced: Beyond the Star, Ai Long Nhai, Coffee Melody, Second Chance and With Love.

Watch Suggestion: instead of watching the series, watch the Behind The NC Scenes (note the thumbnails have nothing to do with the scenes) https://www.gagaoolala.com/en/videos/3965/time-the-series-behind-the-nc-scenes-2024-e01 These are actually fully edited with music though they occasionally have someone giving directions.

Content Warnings: murder, sexual assault/attempted rape, dub/non con? (not sure what exactly that was around 30 minutes in episode 1), sexual harassment, beaten up, drugging, manipulation, slaps/fight, blood, mental health struggles, non con that turns consensual, breaking & entering, kidnapping, non con video recording/sharing

What I Liked
- the intro didn't make much sense but it did set up high stakes
- at least the manager eventually followed him to his room in episode 1
- the kissing/NSFW were decent (but felt directed instead of organic at times)

Room For Improvement
- not sure what the plot was supposed to be, we had fast jumps to characters that are not introduced well/I didn't really know who they were (especially bad in episode 5), it was also boring ie 7 minutes of guys flirting with women in episode 3
- everything felt odd, the dialogues, the lack of realistic reactions to things, no one acted like a human
- the timeline became especially choppy in episode 7, was not sure how much time passed between scenes
- way too much screen time in episode 1 with the stereotypical/cliche fighting/yelling trans women and evil wannabe girlfriend (reminded me of Be Mine Superstar, not in a good way), luckily the yelling went away
- the set up for the NSFW in episode 1 was awful
- the two leads needed to be styled differently, they looked kind of like brothers
- comedy sound effects that weren't funny
- episode 2 had a very long/odd flashback/dream
- nonsense stuff, that jump drive map in episode 5 being just one of a ton of examples
- cliche evil women
- cliche drunk trope (very fictional mouth says no but body says yes), cliche saw someone talking with a woman and then refused to communicate
- the twist at the end

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excellent chemistry (need a special episode and a spin off)

Overall: I was excited about the first episode. Then there were some nonsense character actions and plot that lost me a bit, but the finale reeled me back in. This is based on the book Reset by Crystaljade which I haven't read and I reviewed the series on its own merits. 10 episodes about an hour each. There are sometimes an extra scene after the initial end credits. Aired on iQIYI https://www.iq.com/play/reset-episode-1-2812ixbgl6w?lang=en_us

Content Warnings: punches, blood, violence, vomiting, kind of death, past death, grief, sex trafficking, near suicide, non con picture taking/sharing

Watch Suggestions (to get rid of toilet humor, some angst in the middle and some of a cartoonish villain)
- watch episode 1 (major content warning, it's complicated though)
- episode 2 skip 14-19, 20:20-33:40 and 39:05-40:05
- episode 3 skip 44:40-48:25
- episode 4 skip 8:05-11:20, 40:40-end
- episode 5 watch 48-end
- episode 6 skip 13-15 and 27:45-34
- episode 7 watch 17:30-22:10, 27:30-31, 39-44:30
- episode 8 watch 13-15:25, 19:45-23:10, 28:30-32:30 and 36:45-54:30
- episode 9 watch beginning-3:25, 9:50-13:20, 18-51:50
- episode 10 watch 29-end

What I Liked
- interesting premise
- engaging intro
- chemistry
- Pond's acting
- protect/caring moments
- episode 3 explaining Armin's love of acting and explaining Thada's backstory in episode 6*
- best wingman & manager (need a spin off with them)
- an antagonist actually received decent consequences for his actions

Room For Improvement
- cartoonish villains
- the timeline didn't make a ton of sense regarding how everyone did not look that much older/younger
- toilet humor, too much of a character in the bathroom
- a character kept telling people things and completely freaking out, he should have been smarter instead of still bewildered when months had passed
- world building error in episode 4, Armin mentioned hashtags would be popular but he didn't explain what they were yet Thada knew what they were even though they weren't yet invented
- Thada could have easily foreseen what would happen at that party and talked to Armin before
- stupid "plan" in episode 5
- *they waited too long (episode 6) to explain Thada's background
- security until there suddenly was zero security
- sound effects didn't make things funny

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all over the place (watch suggestions)

Overall: the series swung from comedy (most of which I didn't find funny), to slice of life, to random steamy parts, to melodrama and ended up not being a cohesive series. 8 episodes about 50 minutes each. Aired cut on Glory Day Ent Official YouTube channel https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE_mMXNJViWUKaXdkT7ZgBEaTk35wYbZg&si=tB7zzhUJmFIHnvuD and uncut (longer steamy scenes) on iQIYI https://www.iq.com/play/sangmin-dinneaw-episode-1-xmk7546rfw

Content Warnings: past death, non con/dub con, violence, blood, manipulation, non con touching played off as comedy, slap played as comedy, past child abuse (shown), depression, sexual harassment, slaps, attempted murder, murder?

Watch Suggestions (focus on sweet/steamy moments, note: the uncut version has longer steamy moments)
- watch episode 1
- episode 2 skip part 2 8:30-end
- episode 3 watch part 1 6:50-11:15, part 2 beginning-end, part 3 8:50-10
- episode 4 watch part 1 3:30-8:10, 10:35-12:40, 14-end, part 2 9-end, part 3 5:20-end
- episode 5 watch part 1 beginning-3, 10:40-12:25, part 2 beginning-3:10
- episode 6 watch part 2 5:10-6:20, 13:30-end, part 3 6:20-10:35
- episode 7 watch part 2 14:25-end (watch the uncut for the 2nd couple's steamy scene)
- episode 8 watch part 1 11-12:25 (cut the kissing shorter), part 3 3-4:10 and 9:30-end

What I Liked
- countryside setting
- visuals
- the dream massage
- the mom talked to her son and then the apology in ep 1 and the mom overall
- sweet/caring moments
- an established couple
- the language aspect felt realistic, every character didn't magically understand the other person's language like we've seen before
- the traditional outfits were beautiful
- non cliche female friend
- good consent in episode 5

Room For Improvement
- did a character just murder someone?!!!! he could have gathered evidence and brought it to the police
- the near constant comedy sound effects didn't make things funny
- episode 2 had the fictional so drunk didn't recognize a person but still able to be an active participant in sex
- episode 3 and the manager was cringey instead of funny
- nonsense plan in episode 5/cliche plot point
- exposition dump in episode 6
- two more random characters in episode 6
- a character acted like a toddler in episode 7
- western/cowboy music and white underwear
- the leads only had 4 minutes together in the finale
- nonsense plot stuff: never really explained the reason for not communicating at all even when he was an adult,why didn't he do something first and then reconnect with the alleged love of his life (the order he went in in the series made him look extremely selfish)

Cut (is always 46 min) vs. Uncut
- episode 1 uncut was 50 minutes, I couldn't tell what 4 minutes they cut out.
- episode 2 uncut was 52 minutes, they cut out a bit of the steamy scene with the side couple
- episode 3 uncut was 52 minutes, they shortened/didn't show the steamy scenes of the established couple
- I did not want to continue comparing but overall the cut version took out steamy scenes

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good production value and acting, but not a fan of the main character

Overall: the production value and acting was great but I actively disliked Mamoru's character and might be judging more harshly than normal as I was in this type of relationship (low self esteem/affect/morose and happy go lucky) and it was terrible. Aired on Viki.

Content Warnings: manhandling, non con photo taking/posting, unwanted outing, homophobia, punch

What I Liked
- funny moments like after Mamoru and his friend/fan ate
- the editing/animation references its manga origin
- Mamoru was set up well
- Issei's backstory for the constant smiling
- Mamoru's female friend/fan
- production value*

Room For Improvement
- really terrible communication especially from Mamoru, but Issei definitely should have talked to Mamoru before he said what he said on the stage
- never saw a reason for Mamoru's moroseness (and drawing nsfw stuff in high school and being (understandably) made fun of for it does not count), and there was a lack of character growth
- non reason in episode 7 and then sudden switch in episode 8
- the false idea that love can cure mental health struggles (been there, tried that, it was awful)
- Issei was at the end of the line, then vanished but later had the book???
- stereotypical character at the convention
-*too much spinning camera work end

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want the actors in something with a better script

Overall: I really want to rate this higher (and I think I'm being gracious with a 7), but the writing/plot is nonsensical and jumpy. Watched on Viki.

Content Warnings: none

What I Liked
- the OST/music
- the kiss
- a few cute moments
- Tommy's outfits

Room For Improvement
- the plot was really lacking, there were too many characters and plot threads that didn't tie together. Scenes sometimes jumped randomly and did not feel well connected to one another. Episode 7 had a major event that happened off screen?! Cliche plot point in the 7th episode, bleh! A 1 year time jump in the final episode?!
- did not feel chemistry between the leads or a good development of their romantic relationship
- really dumb rescue breathing, he didn't check to see if he wasn't breathing (i.e. was rescue breathing required???) or a pulse first, this seemed like a stupid plot device and there are many other fun ways that the two could have met
- the worst business plan ever, Ba Da makes really awful/stupid decisions all the way to the end of the series
- I like more realistic make up, but the actors needed some eyeliner and lip color, they looked ill
- too many drone shots

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tried to do too much

Overall: there were way too many characters/plot for 4 hours as well as multiple timelines which made it confusing. A protagonist also had a giant flaw, which made me not support the romance. This is based on the web novel of the same title by Hwacha. 8 episodes about 30 minutes each. Aired on WeTV

Content Warnings (SPOILERS): past (stalking, murder, blood), present (attempted murder, blood, manipulation, blackmail, non con kiss)

What I Liked
- initial premise (even though it's not realistic, it is a bit different)
- physical intimacy
- sweet moments
- characters who did terrible things did have consequences

Room For Improvement
- too many characters/plot, we had: past stalking/murder, current stalking/attempted murder, amnesia, lost dream, job troubles, love rivals, as well as plot that took place in high school, the years in between and in the present
- not all flashbacks were clear and added to the confusion of when/what was happening
- I am very upset with Yeo Sae Byeok if I understand correctly (and I might not because it was confusing)
- in the past he didn't tell Ha Neul about the stalking/threatening letters or go to the police which led his dad to be killed and then Ha Neul to blame himself
- in the near present he didn't tell Ha Neul about the threatening letters or go to the police which led to his boyfriend almost being murdered and missing a large part of his life which I would imagine would be extremely traumatic
- in the present lying by omission and still not cooperating with the police could have easily led to his boyfriend being actually murdered

- super stupid plan in high school with the poor communication trope
- did not feel the emotional intimacy between them, part of it was their past relationship was developed in a 6 minute montage
- there was a ton of writing nonsense, a few examples: no medical professional checked on him for a long time after he woke up, the police were fine not interviewing the victim and taking someone else's word for it, a person in jail was able to obtain a ton of red envelopes and mail them out of jail and they weren't even sealed

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well done micro series

Overall: I enjoyed the back and forth with the leads/their dynamic. 63 episodes between 1-2 minutes each aired on Vigloo app which also has (You Want Some, Rule #1 No Dating Rule, Love in the Apocalypse). Later aired as 6 longer episodes on GagaOOLala https://www.gagaoolala.com/en/videos/6056/match-play-2025 (not available in Japan or Korea)

What I Liked
- idol and trainer/stunt person
- how both were equally sassy
- caring moments
- non dead fish lip press kiss

Room For Improvement
- background music was too loud at times


How to Watch for Free (episodes are 50 coins each, you can't skip episodes but once unlocked they stay unlocked forever, there are additional tasks to get more coins like following the company on social media)

Day 1
- watch episodes 1-6 (free on the app)
- can watch 10 episodes free with ads, I unchecked the auto unlock, clicked off of that box and another box popped up saying "view ads to watch for free 0/10" (I did that for eps 7-16)
- watch 15 ads per day for 30 coins each on the rewards page and do the daily check in (eps 17-25)

Days 2 & 3
- watch the 10 episodes, do the daily checking, watch the 15 ads per day (should take about 3 days in total to watch for free)

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I'm watching so you don't have to (on hold as 3 months later there haven't been any more episodes)

Overall: I wish I could communicate to creators that the majority of us who enjoy BLs don't want to see abusive parents, cliche wannabe girlfriends/fiancees, love triangles and idiot/fickle MLs. I'm only giving it a 6 because it hasn't finished airing. 61 episodes about 2 minutes each. Airing on Stealing From My CEO YouTube channel https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPI1JWvmjRBKQdQr6dtkfhjV70qOc_r5j&si=AMF9kD-Ry2JtT4Eo

Content Warnings: murder, manipulation, slap, theft, child abuse/torture/violence

What I Liked
- the bond between the two guys (i.e. I'm rooting for the pair that is not the end game)
- that they are uploading it (eventually) to YouTube instead of just their app

Room For Improvement
- no desire to watch a very abusive dad
- the main lead is an idiot and I actively don't want him to end up with the other guy
- started with a flash forward
- mom did an exposition dump
- cliche female character
- nonsense things that aren't funny or enjoyable (that magic serum is one example)

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swam in circles

Overall: this is a kind of sequel/retelling of Until We Meet Again with a shift in the main couple focus from Dean/Pharm to Win/Team. People will enjoy Between Us more if they've seen Until We Meet Again first. Note that when Team says 'brother' it means his cousin, not his biological brother. Aired on Wabi Sabi's YouTube membership channel and iQIYI.

Content Warnings: non con touching/kissing, manhandling, slap, past death, grief/trauma, homophobia (another huge content warning in a comment under a spoiler)

What I Liked
- seeing some familiar faces/characters from the first series reprise their roles
- new and extended scenes of Win and Team (return of the broccoli!)
- Win checking on Team's intoxication level
- sweet moments
- some funny moments
- the discussion about homophobia
- Win's older brother/gaming couple
- friendship between Pharm, Manow and Team
- Win and his siblings' relationships (especially Win and his younger brother)
- how Win didn't push Team to tell him about his past

Room For Improvement
- my main issue was that they went around and around, this story could have been told in 6 episodes instead of 12
- 5 couples was too many couples
- I don't understand Win's character, if they had given some background about a bad breakup or something then his actions would make sense, but they haven't shown us as an audience and so he just seems really hot and cold
- Team was oddly reluctant at times and also oddly hot and cold (mostly cold), how was Team more reluctant than Pharm (Pharm!!!) in the final episode?!?
- terrible communication between Team and Win
- for people who did not see UWMA I think this would be a bit confusing, I did want to see when Team, Pharm and Manow first met because all of a sudden they are talking as friends
- Win feels more of a jerk (what on earth was that dialogue during the hurt/care scene in ep 1) and Team is more vulnerable/less sassy and I didn't like the change
- the non con part before they went to the hotel room in ep 1
- Win's shifting hair roots (didn't take off review points for this though)
- camera blocking shots in the kissing scene in ep 1
- the conversation between Bee and Prince in ep 9 was odd, university students in Thailand don't know about bi/pan as a possibility?
- using almost the exact same music (even background music) from UWMA one of which goes with a really tragic scene in UWMA

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La Méchante Femme

Overall: I was hoping to see a sweet rom com with cute guys and cooking, but after the first few episodes this took an unwanted dark/serious turn. It spent waayyy too much time on an overused cliche instead of developing romantic relationships. Watching on Gagaoolala.

Content Warnings: attempted murder, severely beaten up, slapped, cyberbullying, harassment, body shaming, manhandling, non con kiss (sleeping), non con taking pictures/posting, threatening with a gun

What I Liked
- the intro/title sequence was fun
- I liked Lukchup's and Ram's friend groups
- the cute and funny moments
- the food looked delicious

Room For Improvement
- the cliche evil wannabe girlfriend dragged on waaaayyyyy too long, 10 full minutes of crying in the final episode. She did get some consequences but nearly enough for what she did.
- Lukchup's lack of agency - he couldn't go see Ram in the hospital when he wanted, everyone was constantly meeting and making plans without him, he felt too childlike
 - non logical things like Lukchup and Ram's family having a bunch of money but they didn't think to hire security for Lukchup? Why didn't both Ram and Lukchup run back to the building? Why did they need to collect sooooo much evidence before contacting the police, that's what the police investigation does... The police just have a nice tea while the criminal could be running away and/or destroying evidence??? 
- didn't like the social media fan page of a regular college student and people lining up to take pictures with him, it creeps me out
- the ending where multiple relationships were just shoved together at the last minute. Also the second time jump felt like lazy writing. I wish they had spent the time on the relationships and not on Namning.

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Standard Korean BL Series

Overall: the general comments below applies to a whole bunch of Korean BL. I'd say overall it's fine, but suffers from the same issues as other series. Watched on Viki (minor spoilers)

Content Warnings: murders (off screen), suicide, dub con kiss (sleeping)

What I Liked
- good production value
- the flashbacks were obvious
- I thought Yeon Seok's personality (with his confidence/big ego) was funny in the beginning
- the cat magical creature pretty much declares she is asexual, I appreciate the representation and I wish this character was more fully developed
- that both Sin Bi and Ha Yeon called Yeon Seok for being a jerk because he was a jerk

Room For Improvement
- choppy/rushed, I didn't really understand/buy into the sudden shift with Yeon Seok's feelings
- cliche poor communication at the end and Ha Yeon being angry at Yeon Seok when Yeon Seok is doing exactly what Ha Yeon asked him to do (eyeroll)
- pointless love triangle, that screen time could have gone to developing the m/m romance and/or fleshing out the cat goddess character
- the kissing was okay but not great
- why did Ha Yeon get killed the second time, we just never know???

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