You can also ask, how does someone who only has met for 3 months, pine for the guy for 3 years? Also unrealistic. A lot of the emotions are never explored and explained properly, which makes it hard for majority of the audience to relate.Kimsamsoom:
true haha. But falling in love with the real-life NDS is a bit more realistic than the letter-NDS though, even though she only met NDS for 3 months- they shared a lot of tangible memories together and it also completely changed her life for the better. not referring to the romantic aspect, just career-wise alone, you got to admit that NDS was the one that inspired her to venture into start-up and Sandbox. Without him, she was directionless and stuck in her cafe job. So her attachment to NDS was understandable for me.
but the letters? Just using kdrama-logic alone is incomprehensible. I get it if it brought you comfort and it's always just a distant memory that you're fond of... but to be so sure that that's who you want to marry? Just based on merely words...? that kinda defies all kdrama logic and human logic lol. Like HJP said in the end, the letter-NDS was never real. It was not HJP himself either, though with a lot of semblance and similarities. Afterall, he is talented in writing, why would you be so sure that the letter-NDS is real?
that's why i was part of the minority who thought that the DoDal rship was actually not as bad. It's true that a lot of the emotions and character growth (the mountain scene was really wasted) weren't fleshed out explicitly for the audience to get since they spent too much time dilly-dallying on the love triangle. It's also true that a lot of the lines and scenes were pure cringe- but tbh it makes perfect sense to me.
SDM realises that her whole life she's been in love with a non-existent, beyond-human, perfect letter-NDS that was created by HJP and Haelmoni. She learns that the real-life NDS is different, but like she said in the epilogue in ep 7 "different but it sometimes it excites me and makes my heart flutter" bcs the real-life NDS, despite being incredibly flawed, has nevertheless been someone that truly stuck around with her and believed in her potential and helped her bloom, etc.
NDS realises that his whole life he has been rejecting his own identity bcs everyone seems to have a better plan for him. Though many would think this is "great fortune" and "incredible luck", it has been the greatest burden for him as he realises that his whole life is a lie. But SDM was the one that showed him otherwise, that she loved him for who he is. Though in ep13, SDM broke up with him saying she is still in love with the letter-NDS as a way to get him to pursue his dreams. 3 years letter, in the mountain scene, both reveals that they actually love each other for who they are- not the identities that they project one another to be.
doesn't this make sense? lol
so tbh idk what's the fuss with their rship. I get it. I get that there were incredibly questionable scenes that seemed childish, immature, toxic, etc. I get that there were a lot of character inconsistencies. But just the overarching plot, i think it was fine. Their execution wasn't as great, but oh well.
tbh you don't have to reply this. I think this is really just a matter of interpretation, and I'm just thinking out loud.
Sunshinelufc:
@Kristances I think your latest post is a great summary of the story as a whole.
I think the story could have been more rounded with better execution if they did one of two things:
1) As you suggested earlier, doing away with the love triangle in the later parts of the show
2) More episodes/2 seasons
I prefer the second option as I wanted to see more of the characters and a bigger buildup in the development of the self-driving car. Do-San's parents and In-Jae were underutilised and it would have been nice to see Ji-Pyeong form friendships with others and a possible romance with In-Jae.
When I was looking at the feed of Start-Up, I had just completed Weightlifting fairy Kim bok joo and was madly overjoyed to see another Nam Joo Hyuk drama tho WFKBJ>>>>Start-Up in my opinion. I liked start up but it could've taken a better route. Han Ji Pyung should have had a partner at least by the end-be it injae or someone else. The second lead syndrome was so freaking killing me lol. The actors did a good job but the plot was the problem. They could've dealt with the love triangle earlier.
I think Ji-Pyeong's personality is relatable as everyone has experienced unrequited love themselves and seen them do anything and everything for a person to try get them to develop romantic feelings towards them. In reality this rarely works though. I do feel that a lot of people base their views on him solely how he treats Dal-Mi and the grandma rather than how he treats people on the whole. This is what makes his character so complex and interesting to me.
As I've mentioned before, Suzy and HJP having chemistry during their scenes is one aspect that made their romance not feel on sided. And prior to episode 7, the romance had potential to be a full blown romance. There were enough hints, and subtle cues, symbolism and hidden metaphors which were analyzed by many different fans.
SDM's shift in persona, characterization and the retrograding of certain plot points shifted this course. And as early as ep. 7, I was one of the HJP fans who was saying, his endgame did not need to be SDM. In fact a majority of HJP fans bemoaned the needlessly extended love triangle, as each episode that passed was just added torture and pain in HJP, and you saw it on his face, as beautifully acted by KSH.
Why the writer decided to continue the love triangle has mostly due to the buzz that KSH was bringing in to the show. Majority of online comments both from international audience and Knetz were majority HJP positive.
You bring up the rudeness, and harshness of HJP, but neglected to talk about, how his misgivings on SST ended for the most part once they got into Sandbox. In fact in one scene with CEO Yoon, he is seen showing how he has interest in the success of SST. Something, SST and some fans neglected to see. Also as HJP harshness towards SST diminished, SST's harshness and disrespect towards HJP just grew, where the few fans that SST initially had, started to disappear, as their immaturity, and disrespect for someone who is suppose to me a mentor reach all time highs, that a three year time skip was unable to completely fix.
Also, you will notice a lot of people defend HJP's actions towards SST, because this quite realistic in the real world. When you deal with venture capitalist, or investment bankers, they don't sugarcoat words. In fact, the show does a good job of showing a person like Alex, who is all smiles and friendly, but turned out to be a huge snakes. Sugar coated words don't mean anything in real life, if all it does is deceive you and set you up for failure. Often times harsher words are better, because there is less miscommunication on the intended message. This is akin to a guy who is blowing you off, but saying it in such an aegyo voice, or is super nice about it, versus one that is flat out rejecting you harshly. With the first guy, you feel you still have a chance.
I think Do-San's personality is more relatable from a male perspective and that is perhaps why some females (not all) have failed to connect with him. His social difficulties stem from a lack of confidence and mental struggles. Mental issues can be off putting to some females (not all) and it does make him feel like a weak lead. However, it makes his character feel real and gives his character a different arc to overcome. However, I do feel that his character never fully overcomes the social awkwardness (maybe that's just who he is) and that does make his character arc feel incomplete and less interesting compared to Pi-Yeong's.
Well, I can't speak for the male perspective LOL! But take it from a woman, we don't want a guy like NDS, do you know how exhausting and tiring being with him would be? The overprotectiveness, the cloying clinginess, it's all frustrating to see guys act like this. Lack of confidence I can handle, over jealousy, clinginess, refusal to respect private space, and always agreeing to everything I say are just things I find toxic and unhealthy in a guy. Being shy, and being awkward around me, I can handle, and it would even be fun to help bring a guy out of his shell.
He overcomes his limitations, waaayyyy too late. By that time, people have already pigeonholed him into a certain negative stereotype, that just never went away.
It depends what you define as first love. If you define first love as your first fancy or pen pal then I doubt a lot of affairs happen in that instance. If you define it as first relationship perhaps it does happen but it definitely isn't common here! I haven't encountered it once in any of my circles and would say flings are more likely with new flames. It is a common theme in movies and shows because there is something romantic about true love being your first love as it is made to feel pure.
The show defined the first love, as the person who made you want to wake up every day and embrace life, the person who made each day amazing once they talked, and the person who made the sadness of death more bearable. It was definitely more than just a fancy or crush.
This is the writers fault for placing so much important to the letters, only to slot them in the back to collect dust in the latter episodes. If your not going to utilize the letters properly, then don't use them at all.
I agree with your last point about K-dramas and how all love is pure fantasy in them. However, that is because they are shows that typically play out over a short period of time so that for a romantic resolution, it cannot play out as it would in reality.
There are a lot of rom-com Kdrama that play out love triangles better. PBIO being one of them. I think jealousy incarnate does a great jobs as well, it's okay that's love is another, and they have similar run times, except for jealousy incarnate.
Please may you define what you class as older and mature viewer? It is quite offensive for you to imply you are more mature than Kristances because they have a different view to you. You are trying to use your age (whatever it is) and your self-perceived maturity to validate your view over someone elses. You may not even be older than them and you may not be more mature than them. You don't need to be older or more mature to know that the fluffy type of success isn't realistic but most K-dramas forego realism in this regards.
I didn't imply kristance was immature, and I doubt she took it that way, otherwise she would have said something. I am saying, in my opinion, I am a mature and older (because I am over 30+) kdrama audience. A younger kdrama watcher would be under Suzy and NJH age more or less.
My point was, since i'm an older watcher, I prefer seeing more realistic and mature themes. And startup started that way. The first 6 episodes were quite mature. It is only after that it devolved into a HS drama full of teenage angst, and mountain high invisible impasses that litter most HS dramas.
If I wanted to use my age to browbeat someone, I would not go around the bush to do so. I would just straight up say, well your young, that's why your stupid. Or I would say, only young children will enjoy Start Up. In fact I have said several times now to you and her, that your enjoyment of Start Up depends on your PERSONAL experience, as this will affect how you relate to the characters. And since I am more mature and older, I don't relate to them. BUT, this does not mean that if you relate to them, that means your immature and younger. You are making an incorrect correlation here. I use my age and maturity as my personal reason, and not to invalidate your opinion.
But falling in love with the real-life NDS is a bit more realistic than the letter-NDS though, even though she only met NDS for 3 months- they shared a lot of tangible memories together and it also completely changed her life for the better. not referring to the romantic aspect, just career-wise alone, you got to admit that NDS was the one that inspired her to venture into start-up and Sandbox. Without him, she was directionless and stuck in her cafe job. So her attachment to NDS was understandable for me.Kristances:
Their both unrealistic situations, and I would not marry a guy in less than one year of knowing this person. Especially someone who had made a major catfishing lie to me. But you know, there are women there who do dumb things for guys like give men who are in prison their life savings. So, maybe it's more realistic than I think.
It just sucks, they never really gave HJP a chance, she never really got to know him. But oh well, writer's decision. I don't know how you know someone for 3 years, and are suppose to be close, and don't even know what his relationship with Halmoni is, or that he is an orphan. Just boggles my mind. Lots of lying in this family.
that's why i was part of the minority who thought that the DoDal rship was actually not as bad. It's true that a lot of the emotions and character growth (the mountain scene was really wasted) weren't fleshed out explicitly for the audience to get since they spent too much time dilly-dallying on the love triangle. It's also true that a lot of the lines and scenes were pure cringe- but tbh it makes perfect sense to me.
Actually, a lot of people, myself included was ok with NDS in the first few episodes. It is around ep. 7 when a lot of people fell out of love for him. His immaturity, obsessiveness, and clinginess turned off a lot of woman who may or may not know real people exhibiting his symptoms. Personally, I could not deal with a man like NDS, it would be so exhausting, trying to take care of a child.
SDM realises that her whole life she's been in love with a non-existent, beyond-human, perfect letter-NDS that was created by HJP and Haelmoni. She learns that the real-life NDS is different, but like she said in the epilogue in ep 7 "different but it sometimes it excites me and makes my heart flutter" bcs the real-life NDS, despite being incredibly flawed, has nevertheless been someone that truly stuck around with her and believed in her potential and helped her bloom, etc.
I think a lot of female watchers like myself took offence with all the eavesdropping and snooping. And got annoyed how not only was SDM ok with all these things, she didn't even see half the things NDS was doing behind the scenes.
As a women, if I were to learn about some of the things my BF was doing were similar to NDS, I would question what kind of guy NDS really is.
Overall, the writer dropped the ball with writing the ML, and made him pretty unlikeable. Is NDS unrelatable? no, even I can relate to some of the things he does, but the way the plot refuses to show NDS that his flaws, are flaws, made me lose respect for him, as he refuse to grow up, until Ep. 16. And having SDM tell NDS "You've really grown a lot" really felt more like the plot force feeding us to believe he had. Which felt like an insecure writer... as i've said repeatedly in my review.
You bring up the rudeness, and harshness of HJP, but neglected to talk about, how his misgivings on SST ended for the most part once they got into Sandbox. In fact in one scene with CEO Yoon, he is seen showing how he has interest in the success of SST. Something, SST and some fans neglected to see. Also as HJP harshness towards SST diminished, SST's harshness and disrespect towards HJP just grew, where the few fans that SST initially had, started to disappear, as their immaturity, and disrespect for someone who is suppose to me a mentor reach all time highs, that a three year time skip was unable to completely fix.
Not just that.. the reluctantly of SST to accept any of Jipyung's "help" also grew out of their pride, their need to show that they didn't need jipyung to succeed- which is partly a lie. Even dalmi at one point made it clear she didn't want his help. They saw him as a plan b, and one they dispised to need.
I liked Jipyung for many reasons, and i always rooted for his happiness the most but he was indeed very harsh and perhaps necessarily rude prior to being their mentor by seemingly boasting how none of the start-ups he financed succeeded... but, from that point on, even if you hate his guts, he did his job. He guided them. Business is indeed a hard world, reality is unfair and harsh, and some things in life can't nor shouldn't be sugar coated. The truth is a bitter remedy.
Many times we got people telling jipyung to put his emotions aside but how many times did we have anyone telling sst to put their pride aside, to receive his advice with an open mind or to speak up and tell him face to face that, even if what he says is true and for their help, that it offended them or that there are better ways to word it? At the end of the day, they still needed him to get out of their mess (right after the contract its the best example). Something similar happened when you had dalmi so reluctant on her idea to outdo her sister only for her to end up working beside her. Their pride to me became something quite pitiful.
I liked Jipyung for many reasons, and i always rooted for his happiness the most but he was indeed very harsh and perhaps necessarily rude prior to being their mentor by seemingly boasting how none of the start-ups he financed succeeded... but, from that point on, even if you hate his guts, he did his job. He guided them. Business is indeed a hard world, reality is unfair and harsh, and some things in life can't nor shouldn't be sugar coated. The truth is a bitter remedy.ownes:
Out of all the characters, he was the only one to consistently show growth from ep. 1 to about roughly episode 11 or so. Then the writer decided to torpedo the character she spent so long building up. Until we are left with what I assume is still HJP in ep. 16? I couldn't tell with the amount of pride and dignity he lost.
Did they have to force him to have a bromance with NDS just right after SDM broke his heart? Allow the man to grieve properly.
Many times we got people telling jipyung to put his emotions aside but how many times did we have anyone telling sst to put their pride aside, to receive his advice with an open mind or to speak up and tell him face to face that, even if what he says is true and for their help, that it offended them or that there are better ways to word it? At the end of the day, they still needed him to get out of their mess (right after the contract its the best example). Something similar happened when you had dalmi so reluctant on her idea to outdo her sister only for her to end up working beside her. Their pride to me became something quite pitiful.
Like I said in my review, SST and SDM are kids who HJP is helping learn to walk, but once they learn to walk, they just toss HJP aside since they didn't need him anymore. Same thing for SDM, HJP was there when she needed love, and she needed to learn how to move on from her father's death. But once she found someone else, See ya later HJP, thanks for nothing.
Such self absorbed teenagers in adult bodies...
Suckerforhappyendings:
ALSO i'm glad everyone talked on here and stated their opinions because honestly i couldn't have finished watching the whole show otherwise
i literally couldn't bring myself to watch the last four episodes until it finished airing i finally did
I would just like to say one last thing, thank you for making this discussion. It was definitely entertaining to watch because of this chat.
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