lilmeow

Thanks for the rec! This looks really interesting, I'll add it to my list. I would love "beyond Confucianism"... some of Confucius's teachings really bother me, especially with regard to gender roles ;-)

To be honest, I wasn't a huge fan of Liu Yifei the last time I saw her. Her performance in A Dream of Splendor was probably the biggest reason I dropped the show. I just felt like she was putting on airs to act elegant and beautiful, and even did something with her voice. But I know she is widely respected as a skilled and versatile actress, so I'm sure I would feel differently about some of her other performances!

Ah yes, I agree that the message and culture sharing overshadows the story. That's also partly because the story is really weak, so it's easy to get overshadowed. I suspect that there are some people who like this kind of story (eg if you like righteous indignation and then seeing your protagonist win) so I had assumed it was written for them, but it is equally possible that it was just sort of carelessly (or purposefully) written to convey all the other messages. Now that you've pointed it out, it's probably all I'll see if I ever rewatch it! Luckily, I have no plans to rewatch.

But these moral statements about how to be righteous and honorable people, I feel like there is something to that effect in almost every Cdrama I see. Also about saving and protecting the common people. I mean I don't think it's necessarily bad to encourage people to be good people, but it's too heavy-handed and pervasive... so I just try to ignore it most of the time.

Here it might have been much more frequent than necessary, as you point out, but I either didn't notice or mind. I felt like even the values I didn't agree with were relatively harmless since it's a historical, so it's only showing how people felt back then. I recently watched another show that glorified the consumerism of the 90s (Dream of Golden Years) and that one made me cringe a lot more because I feel like it's an ongoing modern debate and the show is glorifying behaviors I disagree with. So by comparison, this already wasn't so bad!

I also really agree with you that China has an immense history and culture, full of contradictions. It's just such an incredibly long history. But I'm not sure we will ever see Cdramas explore it with a critical eye, at least as long as censorship is what it is. I read another comment somewhere that the country is especially strict about how history is portrayed (though I'm not sure exactly how it works... the show I saw this comment in relation to was Legend of the Magnate which I think was already not that flattering towards China, but maybe that's still the whitewashed version). But the fact that so many shows struggle with this kind of censorship makes me feel a little better because it means the people who make them are trying to toe the line and add as much balance as they can.

Anyways, thanks for your perspective, this has been an interesting discussion. I don't think anyone likes the idea of being indoctrinated, so if that's what a show seems to be doing, it's definitely a turn-off!

Hi! Continuing our conversation from my review to yours 😉 I think we both agree that the show did some things poorly, namely... the entire story. It probably appeals to a certain kind of person, but it's just not subtle or nuanced or interesting enough for me.

That said, I am a lot less offended by the celebration/glorification of Chinese culture than you are! I am second generation Chinese so maybe that's part of it (because it's my own culture), but I am ok with a country wanting to show off some part of their culture or history. I think I would take the same attitude towards a Western country doing it. Even if I don't particularly care about the topic, I just try to care enough for the duration of the show, because I can understand that the people involved in the trade might really treat it so sacredly.

As for the values propaganda, this is not the most heavy-handed I have seen in Cdramas, so it is true that I am somewhat inoculated 😛. But I usually think of it as a reflection of the times rather than trying to preach those values to the audience. Subordinating self under family is so big in Chinese culture- from my own experience, I can see how ingrained it is in some of the older generations- so it might be considered historically inaccurate if the characters' attitudes didn't reflect this. The women's rights is also similar, having a brainwashed female character or two is probably more historically accurate. Li Zhen is an idealized character and it's interesting to see what they consider the most important virtues to give her, but it's fair to reflect what the culture (then or now) considers important.

Anyways, that is the kind of attitude I like to take towards Cdramas, otherwise I wouldn't be able to enjoy them as much. I like to think the people making shows have good, non-propaganda intentions, and sometimes just throw in some things here and there to get on the government's good side or pass censorship. I am ok with somebody sharing their culture and being proud of their cultural heritage... just in this case it would have been better if they did it with a more interesting story and multidimensional characters.

Thanks for your comment, it's always nice to read views I agree with 😉

For "The Double", I always thought of that extra 5-minute add- on clip as a cheap attempt to backpedal on an unpopular ending. They never really explain how they got there from the show's ending. But at least if they pull the same thing with this show, I can believe it, so thanks for sharing that the clips exist!

I'm probably not as good as you at judging historical authenticity. I don't know what was real for that time. But I think this is still an idol show so they wanted to make everyone look modern-standard good. Like Li Zhen's face is still very pale and smooth with a facial filter. I was already impressed that old people have freckles, that's where my standards are at 😂😂 Probably I should watch more non-idol shows, but they seem to be mostly depressingly realistic and gritty, so I end up with these idol shows and I just ignore how unrealistic the characters look. My pet peeve is long fingernails on a character who works with their hands, like noooo, that is a liability!

But you are right, this is a show that tried to maximize the female lead at the expense of everyone else. I feel like I have seen a few Cdramas like this recently though. There's probably a certain group of audience that just really likes watching a strong female lead dominate everything. I think it's at least better than the days when female leads were only there for some romantic plots 😛 I didn't see your review out yet but I'll take a look when you're done!

I know what you mean... I actually made a list because I looked up so many recs for shows with strong FLs and a lot were more like "strong FL with asterisk". https://mydramalist.com/list/4J5oW2x3 <-- see if you've watched the ones at the top of this list, they might be better about it. However at the top of the list they are sometimes not the most interesting dramas because it's just about one girl kicking ass everywhere.

As for this show, I think they did female empowerment well. Personally I think the FL overshadows the ML, and even though he saved her a lot, it's because her skillset lies elsewhere. Another thing I look for is side character women who have positive relationships with each other and care about things beyond their love lives, and they had that too (iirc, been awhile). Just unfortunately I didn't like the FL for other reasons so I had a hard time rooting for her or relating to her.

Thanks for your comment, interesting point. Hm, I don't think anyone would last long watching historicals if they actually expected realism. They're all full of genius teenagers. I don't know how quickly everyone grew up back then, but afaik frontal lobes are still developing into the 20s (especially guys) sooo yeah. But make them any older and they'd have to be married with children, so the entire timeline of achievements gets pushed up.
That said, I don't know that I've noticed a particular bias towards criticizing female characters more than male for being unrealistic. If you have... I know a lot (most?) drama watchers are female, so maybe people are comparing themselves and feeling inadequate. I read somewhere that that's one reason BL is so popular. But there is definitely an entire class of feel-good female empowerment shows with strong FLs putting everyone in their place, and then everyone watching is on the same page because nobody would watch it if they didn't like that sort of thing ;-)

I don't remember this exact moment, but she was super super love brain for Changheng for awhile, so I could see it 😅

that's true! in which case it makes sense to just not watch their shows. No point making yourself upset!

glad you agree on these points! I like Cheng Lei too, and thought he did fine for what he was given... just... 🙈 an actor can't save a show

thanks for your nice comment! wah, I am still hungover from this show 😭 I don’t know why I was so convinced it would all work out 😭

thank you, you just saved me a lot of time. I thought this show would have great female empowerment, but opening a perfume shop in 5 minutes as a secret side hustle does not count o.O Now I'm about ⅓ through and the show is feeling more and more off... so I read reviews to decide if I should continue, and "lazy storytelling" describes it perfectly. Sounds like it doesn't get better. Thank you for struggling through this show so the rest of us don't have to!

Yeah, I think she is going for some sort of... quiet, elegant, and noble sort of vibe. You're right, I think it's because she doesn't seem to have many real emotions that we can relate to, she's just flat and unrelatable. Too busy being a saint. I am still confused why almost nobody else seems to think this, so thank you for your comment!

thank you!! I'm so glad you agree, it's a good sanity check for me 😊

Actually at first I was laughing at his superhero scenes, then I realized they were serious. lol. But yes of course his clothes have to come flying off in tatters each time! iirc it gets less over-the-top after awhile, but it's still similar stuff (he finds different ways to take off his shirt etc). After maybe 32? eps he gets his free will back to make his own decisions, if you can wait until then. lol. I truly don't know if it was worth watching this show (even at 1.5X) just for one nice story arc near the end... then again, lots of people seem to like it, maybe I'm just missing something.

thank you! Yeah, somehow on MDL there are always lots of 10/10 for every show and I suspect it’s fans of the actor who have fallen in love =P I read some of the other reviews and was wondering if we watched a different show! Then I was thinking maybe everyone who didn’t like it just dropped it early so it’s only the 10/10s left.

I agree, 10 eps less in the middle might have made this show a lot better. Plus the description made it sound like half the show was about his other identity and it was really 25%. I was really surprised it got better though. Most dramas only get worse =P

glad to help! everyone has different tastes so maybe you’ll still end up liking it ;-)

haha. "Angry bird" is such a good description for Julia's face in this show... not sure it's what she was going for, but you're right, it is pretty cute! Thank you also for the last paragraph. I hadn't even considered that, but it fits much better. I don't think it would save the show for me (I was just too disappointed by the final answers) but it would have improved it a lot.

thank you! i actually did some quick googling earlier and couldn't easily find anyone else with this opinion, so i was wondering if i was crazy. glad it's not just me =}