Eleison

Thank you! Plenty of options to check out, here!! I'll probably start with NIF2, but then dip my toes from there. Thanks again! ☺️

All I had to read was 'sadomasochistic.'

Hard pass!

It really plummeted since I watched. What happened? 🤷‍♀️

What did you feel like it was a commercial for?

A classic, hands down, and introduced many, many people (me included) to Asian entertainment. This got me into Kdramas, which slowly got me into Cdramas (because I feel like Kdramas are struggling as of late, or more and more available on platforms I don't have access to/want to pay for). All because of CLOY; it got me hooked!

Do Pakistan and India have the same dynamic as North and South Korea, though? 🤔

But a U.S. remake does sound silly. 😅 Nothing can match the stakes/factors involved. It's like how a chaebol plot for an American show can't work either. We don't have the social structure anywhere in society to justify such a plot, nor would we have the arranged marriages and such. No one would buy it. Some stories don't work in all cultures/countries. 😅

Maybe Albania and Serbia? 🤔

It just wouldn't work unless you can justify somewhat "demonizing" the other side, too. Most people in the western world look at North Korea as dominated by a tyrannical government. So, while CLOY humanized individuals in North Korea, it didn't have to walk on eggshells when portraying the North Korean government as... less than stellar and upstanding, because no one with access to the show would throw a fit.

Certainly a difficult drama to adapt!

Yeah, I liked it much better once she got to college!

Yeah, I think they made a mistake in not casting a different ML for his "younger" self or not having a slightly older looking FL when she was young (the young actress just loked super young). 13 year olds can look very young, though! I think the really important thing that keeps this from actually entering creepy territory is that he never considers her in a romantic light until she's an adult, so while she was crushing hard on him as a young girl, he wasn't until much later. The casting made it harder to not get hung up, though, for sure!

I love rewatching the episodes where he investigates whether he's her crush and flirts with her hardcore. Both actors absolutely delivered in these scenes! Their chemistry and the way he continually makes her flustered and surprised and fluttery was just the best. It was so fun to watch him torment her! 😅 Some of the best romantic moments in a drama I've ever seen.

The second half of Rebel is my favorite, so at least hang in there until then. There are some really powerful scenes in that half, and a beautiful score/OST. One of my favorites.

I've tried a few other Cdramas that I thought I'd like based on comments and ratings and so far so good. A few, like the Long Ballad, I couldn't make past the first episode. 😅 I was so put-off by the Manga/webtoon (whatever the original was) insert scenes and anachronisms. The world felt fake and two-dimensional to me.

Some of the more fantastical Cdramas (the more full-fledged wuxia/nianxia) so far have been too flowery and over-the-top for me and so stylized it's distracting. I like the more grounded stuff like this.

But I will definitely try some more! They're definitely, in some sense, harder to get into than Kdramas because they feel much more Eastern, if you know what I mean, and so "other" in a way I'm not used to but also find fascinating.

You said you haven't seen LLTG and The Double, right? They're not as brilliant as this, but they are stronger in some ways though not as even and consistent and subtle; still really great to watch (I think LLTG's music is even better than NIF), though, and they have really cool female leads with compelling personalities and brilliant minds. (And obviously a higher production value which makes things more immersive).

Chinese drama screenwriters need to given western screenwriters (and Kdrama writers) some lessons in how to write female leads. Some have been SO GOOD. NOT something I expected, to be honest. 😅

And thanks for chatting back and forth! I have so much to share and unpack but because this thread is so old people rarely post (how fun it would have been to talk about it while it was airing!). I'm 100% showing this to my sister so I can talk about it with her, too. 😅

Well, in short, I loved it!

A few final highlights:

When Chang Su got summoned by the Emperor and all his friends were freaking out, I was inwardly shrieking at the cuteness 🥹😭. Literally all of his friends (Nihuang, Meng, never-break-the-rules Jingyan (who never would have committed treason for any reason), all of the Jiangzuo Alliance guys) were on board to stage a coup against the Emperor in a heartbeat if he tried to hurt Chang Su. And the decision was made without question, without hesitation. They are willing to break all the rules--even trample on their own principles--if it means keeping him safe. It shows their utter devotion to him, and is an incredibly beautiful homage to Chang Su AND Lin Shu after all he's suffered to get Jingyan (and the empire) to this moment. If Chang Su couldn't be protected and cherished, what had they gained? He was the heart and soul of this entire thing, and the sole reason they got this far. Protecting him was protecting the empire.

Another favorite moment was when Consort Jing told Jingyan (when he was a broken, hot mess about not recognizing Lin Shu), "Make sure you make his dream come true. You must not fail." 😭😭😭

Another scene: when Chang Su kept calling Jingyan "Your Highness" and timidly asked if he could be present for the final showdown. Jingyan's indignant anger was just the best. That Chang Su should think he wouldn't be there! Jingyan was so insulted that Chang Su even thought to ask. 😂

And of course, the showdown at the Emperor's party. I actually didn't cry throughout the drama (though I felt all these powerful scenes deeply), but the one that almost did me in, though, was when Chang Su was leaving the Emperor after he got strong-armed into allowing the case to be reopened, and the Emperor started shouting out the things they'd done in the past as uncle and nephew when Chang Su was a child and then you could see Chang Su just about lose it. That sent home just how cruel, selfish, and pathetic the Emperor was, to try and appeal to what they shared in the past to excuse his behavior. Disgusting and vile. It made the Emperor's wickedness more personal than anything we'd seen before, and it was gut-wrenching. They didn't make the Emperor a one-dimensional villain, though. He felt very, very human. It was also fascinating to see the way all the good characters managed to respect him and do their duty to him while slowly declawing him at the same time. That was masterful.

It's just the kind of revenge story I like. Chang Su didn't use his enemies' own methods that were used on him to defeat them, he simply weaponized the truth, and made sure their crimes were brought to light. And this, in itself, destroyed them (MCS talked about scheming and cruelty and conniving; absolute garbage. He never did anything of the sort). And that was a beautiful theme throughout: the truth must, and will, come out.


NOTE: I also loved the way they showed how hard Chang Su worked to strategize. They showed him sitting, thinking, being kept up at night planning and weighing options. He didn't have magic powers that always gave him the right answers, he worked his bum off to come up with them. There was a scene early on that demonstrated this which I thought was a really cool, subtle detail. Jingyan even pointed out how in contrast Chang Su and Lin Shu were but that was just because his "work," out of necessity, had to change, and Chang Su had adapted to the only tools he had now to accomplish his goals: his wits and learning.

Oh, cool! He was such a quirky character in NIF.

Just watched Nirvana in Fire. It's a Cdrama, but still an absolutely incredible drama. So. Good.

Rebel: Thief Who Stole The People is a good sageuk (one of my favorites, along with Under The Queen's Umbrella) and the ML is a lead in SFD, which might be fun for you to see. :)

Well, whenever I see someone mention NIF, they rave about it, and now I finally know why. What a stunning, heart-wrenching, beautiful drama.

Balanced and steady, the story and characters seep slowly into your heart. And then... they take up permanent residence. 😂

It's as near perfect as it could be.

All I'll say is, be patient, embrace the gentle pace, and watch this masterpiece gradually unfold. It's absolutely worth the wait!

P.S. And, just fyi, if you don't want to follow Mei Chang Su 'to Hell and back' by the end of this drama, it might be a sign you have a heart of stone... 😉

Yeah, we never do get an explanation for why he and his friend were at odds in Episode 1, and what he seemed so upset about. I think what @RetiredGodofWar said makes sense, but this was definitely also left somewhat unaddressed.

Intercultural relationships are great for stories, but in real life they are VERY hard. Many that I see don't work out well. I know they CAN be done, but marriage/relationships are hard enough with someone who already shares your culture and background!

The more I see them the less I want one. 😬

I think it's a completely different generation than Season 1. I think Ting Sheng (the slave boy who gets trained to win against the Northern suitor with a special sword routine) is the only character that's in both seasons, from what I hear.

Okay! I've never read a Chinese novel, but I assume it's fairly modern?

That part cut from the drama with the hound sounds very Odyssey-like. 😏

My heart also broke at the scene where Xia Jiang tries to sabotage their friendship and Jingyan falters in his trust and they have that horrible altercation in the passage. Chang Su's shock and panic that Jingyan might discard him was so heartbreaking (probably partially because he was hurt, but largely because he was afraid, and afraid for Jingyan). It gave me the shivers to see the way he forced Jingyan to realize the error in his thinking rather than getting to the bottom of Jingyan's sudden, inexplicable coldness (also, the way Chang Su called Jingyan's name when he got angry with him and spoke familiarly to him. How could Jingyan not know it was his bestie? 🥹); Chang Su only ever thinks of other people and what is best for them, and never about himself. It's why his character is so beautifully sad; never once has he lived for himself!

(But at some point I want him to be selfish, to enjoy those around him while he can because they don't have long with him. 😭 They lost you once, dude, have some compassion on them! We know you've embraced the fact that you'll die, but they haven't! Especially not after they got you back from the dead!)

And then the way Jingyan realized, too late, what Chang Su had warned him about, that more people would suffer if they saved Wei Zeng. 😭 (Xia Jiang was gonna be TOAST). Jingyan has grown on me, too, because he was so stiff at the beginning that I struggled to see him as a main character for some reason, but as the actor started having to show more range and nuance for his character's arc, I'm now quite attached to him (I think he started growing on me more when he was in his mother's room, and broke down for the first time because he missed Lin Shu. 🥹 That was precious ).

I was relieved they started showing more flashbacks of them together outside the overused flashback of Chang Su "dying" (that's my only gripe so far; they played the Chiyan Army getting destroyed flashback way too many times).

I'm curious to see if Jingyan will be frustrated that he didn't figure it out like Nihuang and Consort Jing? They didn't need to be told. (And Commander Cheng already knew beforehand, haha, so he doesn't count).

Unlike most dramas, the second half of this is definitely the most enjoyable part. I know the slow parts in the beginning/middle were important, but after Episode 30 it really started picking up for me. It ups the ante and has so many great moments. Anyway, I'll report back after I finish, haha. 😂

P.S. You know the BGMs are good when you get excited to hear a theme again or long for it when you haven't heard it for a while. None of these reactions apply to this drama: "Why are they playing this again!?" or "I didn't even notice the music." 😅

Yep, I think so (to the virus). 😅

Yes, Consort Jing is amazing. She's so clever but is always composed and careful so people just constantly underestimate her.

And poor Jingyan thinks he has no friends and is so lonely and forlorn; is he bothered and melancholy (after they return from the Hunting Palace) because he knows Chang Su and his mom are lying to him? I know he's bothered by the case, but I'm wondering if he partly wants to uncover the truth because he senses he can't know the truth about Chang Su until the Chiyan army is cleared. I don't know. I just get the sense that he knows more than he realizes, but it's all too deep for words?

It's also fun to see how we all (the audience and those around Jingyan) underestimated him; all except Chang Su. And then he brought out the gem for all to see and everyone is surprised, but Chang Su's not. 😅 So good.

And Chang Su and Nihuang are so cute and heartbreaking at the same time. I love her character, too. And Commander Meng is also just the best. It's crazy that he knows so much long before Jingyan! 😅