Blackthorne speaks English, Dutch, Latin, and Portuguese. He was in possession of rutters (written sailing directions)…
I'm not confused by how they've handled spoken languages (with most of the English dialogue actually being Portuguese or, occasionally, other languages like Dutch, Spanish and Latin). My questions were only about the written records from Blackthorne's ship, who was able to read them, and how they were translated.
Blackthorne speaks English, Dutch, Latin, and Portuguese. He was in possession of rutters (written sailing directions)…
I find the idea that both Rodrigues and Father Martin would be able to read and translate English (in addition to speaking Portuguese, Spanish, Latin and Japanese) a little surprising (given where they were stationed and the small likelihood that they would ever have a need for it), but not impossible.
Mariko specifically mentioned Blackthorne's orders (which would not have been in Portuguese - so not on that one page that was originally in Portuguese), so my impression was that those orders must have been translated as well, along with that page that was in Portuguese with Blackthorne's notes in English.
It seemed to me like Mariko's trust in Father Martin and the Portuguese in general had been shaken, which is why I thought her phrase "in your own words" to describe Father Martin's translation of Blackthorne's notes (and orders) seemed a bit off. But you're right that Blackthorne's lack of protest would have confirmed that Father Martin's translation (or at least the gist of it) was accurate.
A few questions below. Hoping someone who has read the novel can clarify.
Blackthorne speaks English, Dutch, Latin, and Portuguese. He was in possession of rutters (written sailing directions) that enabled his fleet of five ships to sail through the Strait of Magellan (Magellan's Pass) at the southern tip of South America. Rodrigues concluded that those rutters must have been stolen from a Spanish sailor. Blackthorne also kept a list of "Catholic bases" that his fleet burned on their way between Amsterdam (their port of departure in the Netherlands) and Japan, and a record of his orders: to plunder any Spanish territory, to reach the Japans, and to open trade (for the Dutch and the English) in the New World.
When Rodrigues discovered the rutters, the list, and the orders on Blackthorne's ship in episode 1, he was able to read all of them. Rodrigues is a Spaniard who speaks Spanish, Portuguese and Japanese. It's possible that he might also speak Latin, Dutch or English (and/or other languages like French or Italian).
Rodrigues gives the rutters, the list, and the orders to Father Martin and Father Dell'Aqua in episode 2, and it seems that they were both also able to read the records. They speak Portuguese, Latin and Japanese. It's possible that they might also speak Spanish, Dutch or English (and/or other languages like French or Italian).
Father Martin gives the rutters, the list, and the orders to Toranaga in episode 3. By episode 4, those records are in Toda Mariko's possession, and she pulls out the documents that contain the list of burned bases and Blackthorne's orders (but not the rutters) in order to read them. From what the camera shows, it looks like the records were mostly written in English, but there was one loose page tucked into the records that was originally written in Portuguese (e.g., "Ilha Mocha - 600 libras de prata"). Additional notes were written on that page in English (e.g., "burned to hell") and additional translations of those English notes into Portuguese (e.g., "queimado até o inferno") and other languages (e.g., "hele") were also included on the page. Mariko speaks Japanese, Portuguese and Latin. She definitely does not speak English. And yet, the way Mariko's eyes travel across the English pages of the documents, the actress made it look (to me) like Mariko was able to read the English parts. Not like she was just scanning for Portuguese amongst the English text. My assumption is that that is not the intended implication. We know Mariko can't read English. I just think they framed it in a confusing way there. Anyway, moving on, after scanning the English parts of Blackthorne's records, she arrives at the loose page with Portuguese text... Then, the next day, Mariko tells Blackthorne that she has read about his crimes against the Portuguese and that she has read his orders "in his own words".
Based on all of that, I am confused about a few things.
Rodrigues assumed the rutters were stolen from a Spanish sailor. So it seems likely that they would have been written in Spanish or Latin. But I suppose it wouldn't be impossible for the rutters to have been written in Portuguese. However, Rodrigues made it clear in episode one that the rutters from the Spanish sailor were kept separate from the list of Catholic ports that Blackthorne's fleet burned and the orders that Blackthorne received. The list and orders could have been written in Latin, English or Dutch (and as I mentioned above, in episode 4 it looks like they were written in English), but it would make absolutely zero sense for them to be written in Portuguese - the language of the enemy. So what was that loose page that Mariko read that was originally in Portuguese with English notes added by Blackthorne indicating that certain ports were sacked and with Portuguese translations added (presumably by Father Martin) for those English notes?
And if Mariko read the orders that Blackthorne received, does that mean that Father Martin also translated those from English to Portuguese too? Did Mariko understand that Father Martin had translated Blackthorne's English notes and his orders? If so, how could she trust that Father Martin's translations were truly accurate and complete, to the point where she could confidently say that she had read Blackthorne's orders in his own words?
Do the translations from English (and the fact that Rodrigues and Father Martin were able to read the documents in the first place) indicate that Father Martin (and possibly Rodrigues too) can speak / read / translate English?
Has the drama changed how these details are presented in the novel? For example, were all of these documents written in Latin in the novel?
April 11, they do 2 eps for Mon-Thurs, and only 1 ep per day for Fri-Sun. But they release weekly air schedules,…
If I binge it over two or three days around the time it finishes airing hopefully there will be other fans who are still watching and willing to chat about it.
I'm trying very hard to wait until all the episodes have aired before starting. Based on the rate that the episodes have aired so far, I'm thinking that would probably be April 7?
This is supper interesting and adaptations are always disappointing in how much they dilute dialogue and throws…
Since the original scenario was replaced with a different one, it seems like a choice that was made by the script writers rather than a matter of cuts made in post by the editors.
This is supper interesting and adaptations are always disappointing in how much they dilute dialogue and throws…
Glad you found it interesting. My guess is that the screen writers thought that all the different countries involved (the Netherlands, England, Portugal, and Spain) might confuse viewers who aren't already familiar with the history, or they thought explaining it would take too much time and take away from the tension, so they decided to go with a simpler situation (Blackthorne vs. the Portuguese in Japan) while retaining parts of the original dialogue where they could.
There's an excellent explanation here on the relationship of Cang Xuan and Xiao Yao.https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/120191-are-cang-xuan-and-xiao-yao-blood-relatives-in-the-drama
Thanks Kokuto. ^^ I did want to help future viewers with the confusion. Glad it’s been useful!
A novel reader (reddit user PalgsgrafTruther) provided some important context for the iconic line, "Unless I win." Very minor spoilers for early moments in the drama and the novel below.
In the drama, Toranaga advises Blackthorne (through Mariko) to give up his fight against the Portuguese in Japan because he is outnumbered and there is no hope for him. Blackthorne responds, "Unless I win." Which... doesn't feel like it has the punch it's supposed to have. He basically said, "I'm outnumbered and have no hope of winning... unless I win." On the one hand, it's true that his situation won't be hopeless anymore if he actually wins despite the odds. In that sense, Blackthorne's response carries a connotation of determination no matter the odds. But it doesn't feel like a particularly intelligent thing to say.
Whereas in the novel, Toranaga knows from the Portuguese (who, at the time, were part of the Spanish Empire) that the Netherlands had also been part of the Spanish Empire before the 80 Years' War between Spain and the Netherlands (and the related Spice War between Portugal and the Netherlands) began. So by going to war with Spain (and Portugal), the Dutch protestants were rebelling against their lawful King (with assistance from England). Blackthorne admits that that is true, but says that there are mitigating circumstances. Toranaga is dismissive. No mitigating circumstances can justify rebelling against your lawful sovereign. Blackthorne responds with the iconic line: "Unless you win." And in that context, he's right. History is written by the victors, and winning the war against the Spanish would allow the Dutch to retroactively legitimize their rebellion. Realizing that, Toranaga laughs and agrees. That would be the one mitigating circumstance that could justify their rebellion.
I prefer the novel's version of this exchange, because, for Blackthorne, it shows his intelligence, for Toranaga, it shows that he is a man who is capable of acknowledging when he stands corrected, and for the two of them it marks one of the first moments where Toranaga sees something in Blackthorne (in this case, intelligence) that makes him a person of interest... someone who might prove useful and worthy of respect. The drama doesn't really have the same "I stand corrected" factor and replaces the focus on Blackthorne's intelligence with a focus on his determination, which I find less compelling.
Also, my understanding is that the novel revisits this conversation later on in the story. Presumably, "history is written by the victors" and "it's wrong to rebel unless you win - then you can turn your treacherous rebellion into a righteous revolution" becomes relevant. It's not difficult to imagine how. But given how the drama has changed the "Unless you win" exchange, the drama won't be able to reference the exchange later on in the same way that the novel does.
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Toranaga: “[Another person] says that the Netherlands were vassals of the Spanish king until just a few years ago. Is that true?”
Blackthorne: “Yes.”
Toranaga: “Therefore, the Netherlands – your allies – are in a state of rebellion against their lawful king?”
Blackthorne: “They’re fighting against the Spaniards, yes, but – ”
Toranaga: “Isn’t that rebellion? Yes or no?”
Blackthorne: “Yes. But there are mitigating circumstances. Serious miti- ”
Toranaga: “There are no ‘mitigating circumstances’ when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord!”
Blackthorne: “Unless you win.”
Toranaga looked at him intently. Then laughed uproariously. “Yes, Mister Foreigner…you have named the one mitigating factor.”
The topic of which male lead is the female lead's true love is a matter of hot debate in this comment section,…
No. Ye Shi Qi / Tushan Jing is the character played by Deng Wei.
The character with white hair is Xiang Liu (played by Tan Jian Ci). I don't want to spoil you more than you want to be spoiled, but let me know if you would like more information about Xiang Liu.
You can spoil it but who the heck is the true love/the one she will ultimately wind up with. I don’t usually…
The topic of which male lead is the female lead's true love is a matter of hot debate in this comment section, so you may get different answers from different viewers. My personal take is that she loved all three of the main male leads in different ways.
As for who Wen Xiao Liu / Xiao Yao (the female lead) ultimately ends up with, unless there are huge changes from the novel, the leaked script for S2, and all the behind-the-scenes snippets we've seen so far, she will marry Ye Shi Qi / Tushan Jing at the end of S2.
There's an excellent explanation here on the relationship of Cang Xuan and Xiao Yao.https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/120191-are-cang-xuan-and-xiao-yao-blood-relatives-in-the-drama
Thanks for saying that ChunTian! I appreciate it. ^^
There's an excellent explanation here on the relationship of Cang Xuan and Xiao Yao.https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/120191-are-cang-xuan-and-xiao-yao-blood-relatives-in-the-drama
Thanks for sharing this with those kind words Kokuto! ^^
There's an excellent explanation here on the relationship of Cang Xuan and Xiao Yao.https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/120191-are-cang-xuan-and-xiao-yao-blood-relatives-in-the-drama
Yep, some pretty big changes.
And in addition to making changes to XY and CX's relationship and XY's mother's identity, they also changed the names of the kingdoms and the names of several characters through re-dubbing after filming and the first round of dubbing was completed.
3 
1 
1 
That all makes sense. Thanks for providing details from the novel. It feels like a role reversal. ^^
I’d love to know what it says about the translations when you get to that part!
Mariko specifically mentioned Blackthorne's orders (which would not have been in Portuguese - so not on that one page that was originally in Portuguese), so my impression was that those orders must have been translated as well, along with that page that was in Portuguese with Blackthorne's notes in English.
It seemed to me like Mariko's trust in Father Martin and the Portuguese in general had been shaken, which is why I thought her phrase "in your own words" to describe Father Martin's translation of Blackthorne's notes (and orders) seemed a bit off. But you're right that Blackthorne's lack of protest would have confirmed that Father Martin's translation (or at least the gist of it) was accurate.
When Rodrigues discovered the rutters, the list, and the orders on Blackthorne's ship in episode 1, he was able to read all of them. Rodrigues is a Spaniard who speaks Spanish, Portuguese and Japanese. It's possible that he might also speak Latin, Dutch or English (and/or other languages like French or Italian).
Rodrigues gives the rutters, the list, and the orders to Father Martin and Father Dell'Aqua in episode 2, and it seems that they were both also able to read the records. They speak Portuguese, Latin and Japanese. It's possible that they might also speak Spanish, Dutch or English (and/or other languages like French or Italian).
Father Martin gives the rutters, the list, and the orders to Toranaga in episode 3. By episode 4, those records are in Toda Mariko's possession, and she pulls out the documents that contain the list of burned bases and Blackthorne's orders (but not the rutters) in order to read them. From what the camera shows, it looks like the records were mostly written in English, but there was one loose page tucked into the records that was originally written in Portuguese (e.g., "Ilha Mocha - 600 libras de prata"). Additional notes were written on that page in English (e.g., "burned to hell") and additional translations of those English notes into Portuguese (e.g., "queimado até o inferno") and other languages (e.g., "hele") were also included on the page. Mariko speaks Japanese, Portuguese and Latin. She definitely does not speak English. And yet, the way Mariko's eyes travel across the English pages of the documents, the actress made it look (to me) like Mariko was able to read the English parts. Not like she was just scanning for Portuguese amongst the English text. My assumption is that that is not the intended implication. We know Mariko can't read English. I just think they framed it in a confusing way there. Anyway, moving on, after scanning the English parts of Blackthorne's records, she arrives at the loose page with Portuguese text... Then, the next day, Mariko tells Blackthorne that she has read about his crimes against the Portuguese and that she has read his orders "in his own words".
Based on all of that, I am confused about a few things.
Rodrigues assumed the rutters were stolen from a Spanish sailor. So it seems likely that they would have been written in Spanish or Latin. But I suppose it wouldn't be impossible for the rutters to have been written in Portuguese. However, Rodrigues made it clear in episode one that the rutters from the Spanish sailor were kept separate from the list of Catholic ports that Blackthorne's fleet burned and the orders that Blackthorne received. The list and orders could have been written in Latin, English or Dutch (and as I mentioned above, in episode 4 it looks like they were written in English), but it would make absolutely zero sense for them to be written in Portuguese - the language of the enemy. So what was that loose page that Mariko read that was originally in Portuguese with English notes added by Blackthorne indicating that certain ports were sacked and with Portuguese translations added (presumably by Father Martin) for those English notes?
And if Mariko read the orders that Blackthorne received, does that mean that Father Martin also translated those from English to Portuguese too? Did Mariko understand that Father Martin had translated Blackthorne's English notes and his orders? If so, how could she trust that Father Martin's translations were truly accurate and complete, to the point where she could confidently say that she had read Blackthorne's orders in his own words?
Do the translations from English (and the fact that Rodrigues and Father Martin were able to read the documents in the first place) indicate that Father Martin (and possibly Rodrigues too) can speak / read / translate English?
Has the drama changed how these details are presented in the novel? For example, were all of these documents written in Latin in the novel?
In the drama, Toranaga advises Blackthorne (through Mariko) to give up his fight against the Portuguese in Japan because he is outnumbered and there is no hope for him. Blackthorne responds, "Unless I win." Which... doesn't feel like it has the punch it's supposed to have. He basically said, "I'm outnumbered and have no hope of winning... unless I win." On the one hand, it's true that his situation won't be hopeless anymore if he actually wins despite the odds. In that sense, Blackthorne's response carries a connotation of determination no matter the odds. But it doesn't feel like a particularly intelligent thing to say.
Whereas in the novel, Toranaga knows from the Portuguese (who, at the time, were part of the Spanish Empire) that the Netherlands had also been part of the Spanish Empire before the 80 Years' War between Spain and the Netherlands (and the related Spice War between Portugal and the Netherlands) began. So by going to war with Spain (and Portugal), the Dutch protestants were rebelling against their lawful King (with assistance from England). Blackthorne admits that that is true, but says that there are mitigating circumstances. Toranaga is dismissive. No mitigating circumstances can justify rebelling against your lawful sovereign. Blackthorne responds with the iconic line: "Unless you win." And in that context, he's right. History is written by the victors, and winning the war against the Spanish would allow the Dutch to retroactively legitimize their rebellion. Realizing that, Toranaga laughs and agrees. That would be the one mitigating circumstance that could justify their rebellion.
I prefer the novel's version of this exchange, because, for Blackthorne, it shows his intelligence, for Toranaga, it shows that he is a man who is capable of acknowledging when he stands corrected, and for the two of them it marks one of the first moments where Toranaga sees something in Blackthorne (in this case, intelligence) that makes him a person of interest... someone who might prove useful and worthy of respect. The drama doesn't really have the same "I stand corrected" factor and replaces the focus on Blackthorne's intelligence with a focus on his determination, which I find less compelling.
Also, my understanding is that the novel revisits this conversation later on in the story. Presumably, "history is written by the victors" and "it's wrong to rebel unless you win - then you can turn your treacherous rebellion into a righteous revolution" becomes relevant. It's not difficult to imagine how. But given how the drama has changed the "Unless you win" exchange, the drama won't be able to reference the exchange later on in the same way that the novel does.
-----
Toranaga: “[Another person] says that the Netherlands were vassals of the Spanish king until just a few years ago. Is that true?”
Blackthorne: “Yes.”
Toranaga: “Therefore, the Netherlands – your allies – are in a state of rebellion against their lawful king?”
Blackthorne: “They’re fighting against the Spaniards, yes, but – ”
Toranaga: “Isn’t that rebellion? Yes or no?”
Blackthorne: “Yes. But there are mitigating circumstances. Serious miti- ”
Toranaga: “There are no ‘mitigating circumstances’ when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord!”
Blackthorne: “Unless you win.”
Toranaga looked at him intently. Then laughed uproariously. “Yes, Mister Foreigner…you have named the one mitigating factor.”
The character with white hair is Xiang Liu (played by Tan Jian Ci). I don't want to spoil you more than you want to be spoiled, but let me know if you would like more information about Xiang Liu.
As for who Wen Xiao Liu / Xiao Yao (the female lead) ultimately ends up with, unless there are huge changes from the novel, the leaked script for S2, and all the behind-the-scenes snippets we've seen so far, she will marry Ye Shi Qi / Tushan Jing at the end of S2.
And in addition to making changes to XY and CX's relationship and XY's mother's identity, they also changed the names of the kingdoms and the names of several characters through re-dubbing after filming and the first round of dubbing was completed.
https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110123-xl-and-xy-story-and-romance-warning-spoilers?pid=2966797&page=494#p2966797