[Discussion] Golden Empire

I will answer to your thoughts by way of highlighting that which I agree or disagree on that strikes me as important, and by answering them with thoughts of my own, of course. That cannot be helped. LOL. "I think where you and I differ in our opinions of TJ is the source of his motivations. Whilst you say it’s coming from a place of negativity and darkness. I say it’s naivete, idealism and ego" Before I answer this I have to add that I do understand that no one in this world is entirely good nor entirely bad, and that is the beauty of being human. In fact this is the number one reason I love this drama, because the characters (none) are entirely good nor bad. Even Min Jae had his good side and that could be argued by many, but he did. Also, that I love that Tae Joo is the first main character I see in a Korean drama that is not the perfect idealistic man every woman wants. If anything, many viewers stopped watching this drama because he did what he did within the first 5 minutes of episode one. This is something I love, that the writers weren't afraid to show us someone who was going to go from point A to point Z in such a short amount of episodes given the enormous content of this story. So it goes without saying (although Ill say it lol) that I agree with you about Tae Joo being a fascinating character that is not just a character written on a paper, but a character that makes us feel because he seems human, he relates to everyone of us in some aspects. That is the making of a great character, and this drama should be watched only for that reason... but hey! there are plenty of reasons why it should be watched LOL. I have to agree that he was naive, an idealist with a big ego. Yes, this is very true. But I have to also stick to my believe that from the beginning he didn't have a good heart. The way people see goodness or evil differs in every individual, there is an universal truth but it is perceived differently by everyone. For example, the man (this is fact) that believed he was doing good by ridding the world of prostitutes so he set out to kill them. This happened in US I believe not sure. He thought his intention were good, and that he was doing good to the world, but... think again my brother... lol Tae Joo wanted to bring goodness to the world he lived in, the poor class, but he didn't think to do this with goodness. He used (from the start) devious tactics, and the scary part of it is that HE WANTED to use these tactics. He didn't think he was doing wrong by crushing people that were on the top just because they had crush other people. He used the "an eye for an eye" idealism, and while I used to think that way myself when I was younger, I don't anymore. Actually I think it doesn't make you better than your enemies, if only, it makes you worse. Because you are not showing your enemies you are better than them (as in good while they are evil) when you have to retort to the same cruelty you accuse your enemies of. I do see virtues in Tae Joo that given a good path for this young man, he would have become someone worthy of the world to bow their heads to. What he wanted would have been his, if he would have lived a life guided by good ethics vs the life he led on the dark road to perdition. And like I said before, I think he actually wanted this road of darkness because he felt more comfortable with it. Just because his original cause is a good one, doesn't make him a good person. Is like saying revolutionaries are far better men than oppressors, but then again they kill and torture their enemies just the same; and they kill the family of their enemies just the same; and they are proud of this. I'm reminded of the "hero" of my country and that does not include Fidel Castro but someone else entirely different. This drama references many times how revolution doesn't work. And I believe this is the core of the drama, and the base from which we can see the character of Tae Joo rise. He is the representation of revolution, that later leads to something entirely different from what it starts from. Just like Tae Joo started with a good cause in mind, but ended up being a monster himself. Having said this, I still loved him, because at the end (although the cowardly way out) he understood this and saw himself as a despicable person, and thus he ended that person. He decided to put an end to the monster he had created because he was not going to stop with the CEO position. He was not going to say then, after becoming ruler of the Golden Empire; "here, I give you all these much money, and houses, and education..." Nope. He was going to try and make more money, and try and take down more "corrupt" business men under the false pretense of revenge. I think this is why he ended this man he had become, because he knew no one (not even jail) would stop him from continuing to self-corrupt himself. <--- after reading my older thoughts, this is where I feel differently. Before I saw this as him being a coward completely, now I see this as him understanding he lost complete control of himself (who he was before) and thus he sees no other way of ending this. No other way of stopping his greed. The character of Tae Joo is a teaching of greed. Simple, and to the point in very good, well written, directed, and incredibly acted 20 episodes drama (or was it 24?). "Even when he makes Seul Hee take the fall for him, he does so with the (perhaps misguided, naive) thought that he is fighting for a greater good that would benefit them all in the long run. He’s thinking when he gets the empire, he’ll have rid the world of these awful people. Naively he doesn’t realize that he’s setting the stage to follow in the footsteps of the Chois. Being a bit of a egomaniac, probably even a bit narcissistic, he doesn’t really grasp the infectious nature of wielding the type of power being chairman provides. He compares himself to Hitler, but as I watched it didn’t strike me that he understood the ramifications of what he was saying." Yes, true, true. But! bad people have good virtues and good causes, still, they do bad things and don't give a S*** Just like Tae Joo didn't care to send her to jail at that time when he picked up the phone and dialed the number for the cops to come get her. He kissed her just to make sure she knew who the BOSS was. It was like saying: here let me give you a kiss so you can go to jail happy and with hopes that YES YES YES we are getting married. But now go serve some time for me B*** "But MORALLY I don’t think he & Hitler had the same motivations AT ALL - that’s why I said he doesn’t understand the ramifications of comparing himself to such an inherently evil man. All along Tæ-joo swears he’s morally superior to the Chois, that he’s nothing like them … so from the start his way to hell is paved with GOOD intentions." On this I have to entirely agree. o.o

I don't like the actress (though I wouldn't re-cast her), but I liked Seo Yoon ... to an extent. My affection for her is perhaps more sentimental in that she was a strong woman who could hold her own in a den of dragons. We actually agree that she's not like the other members of the Choi family. If I implied otherwise, it was my mistake. I thought she and her step brother were the only decent human beings in that family. In fact, for the first 12 eps I was rooting for her.

Eventually though my allegiance shifted ... simply because I wanted the underdog, Tæ-joo, to win. And I saw traits in him that I saw in myself or wanted to develop. I didn't see him as evil from the get-go. Even at the end, instead of hating him I pitied him. I thought what wasted potential...

I've come across a lot of guys like Tæ-joo in real life. Guys with a lot of promise, who are not evil by nature, but who are led astray by some vice or another. It's always sad to watch.

That said, your defense of Seo Yoon is justified. In the beginning of her journey. Her intentions too were good, at the start. I can say the same about Tæ-joo and I do. By the end of the show though she too was only fighting to maintain power. She too was teetering on the edge of darkness ... why do you think she was bawling at the end? Because she knew either that's where she's headed as the new chairman or she knew she was already there. Just like Tæ-joo.

The disease of the throne discriminates against no one. Once you're in the seat you no longer have control of your own fate. It will control you, making to you obsessed to hold on to it. I think that's the morale of the story. Money & power come with a lot of great perks, but don't think you're going to dabble in it without a price. That price often being your soul.

As for Min-jæ I can not remember ANY good that man has ever done for anyone. He screws over anyone who stands in his path ... Yoon, his 2nd wife, his cousins, Tæ-joo even his own damn father. I never saw any redeeming qualities in him whatsoever. That's why to me he's the epitome of a true psychopath.

I know that Tæ-joo wasn't written to be a 'hero' in the classic sense of the word. Nevertheless, the writers didn't convince me that he's someone who deserves my unbridled contempt. From where I sat he was a hero in many ways, in his own way. I don't know what that says about me, but there you have it! :-)

I 'thought' I loved this drama but based on the discourse that followed your analysis, I can see that my attention to detail pales by comparison! :) PrettyC I agree with your assessment of Tae-joo 100% with exception to your view of his love, or lack thereof, for Seul Hee. In my view I think he grew to really love her and but for his manic obsession he would have happily married her. Why I believe this is because he went ahead and divorced Seo Yoon, when he would have had a much easier road to achieve his dream if he had not done so. I accept he is very loyal and values his friendships but in my view, he had much more affinity with Seul Hee. Watching their scenes together, I felt he was very protective of her, and her sincerity and the depth of her unwavering love touched him in a fundamental way that he came to love her. I do agree there was some affection and respect which developed over time between him and Seo Yoon, but I think he viewed her as coming from bad 'seed', and she in my view 'looked down on him' in terms of his pedigree and I don't think that was going to change. It's the reason why I did not like her character despite her 'innocence'. I did not have a problem with there being no love relationship between Seo Yoon and Tae Joo and I am probably in the minority in thinking that he not only respected and was loyal to Seul Hee, but that he actually loved her. I also feel that somewhere along the path his wanting to attain the Golden Throne not only included revenge for his father and redemption of his sense of self worth but also atonement to Seul Hee for the sacrifices she made for him; he wanted to seat her besides him in the Throne Room. When he failed, it may have contributed to his suicidal depression. I do agree with Nina's assessment of Seo Yoon which is why I refer to her 'innocence' earlier. It's a pity that both she and Tae-joo got caught up in their manic obsessions; and notwithstanding my understanding Seo Yoon's reasons I really could not empathize with her character mainly because I felt she was basically a right snob. As I watched the antics of that horrendous family I kept thinking 'but these people came from 'nothing' how dare they look down on someone who wants to do better'. Yes, Tae Joo could have started his own empire but look, the Chois built their empire on destroying the lives of others so as I see it, turn around is fair play. With regard to the ending, I have to say that your version is better: "My ending for him would have been him going to jail, coming back and rebuilding from scratch - an older, wiser man who has learned from his mistakes". There is something about him committing suicide that just did not sit well with me. It just seemed to be too weak for a man whom we all agree was very strong, intelligent and a fighter. But as I said to you before he did seem to have become a manic depressive so in that sense it fits. "Finally, I agree with your statement "if all 3 players are dancing with Satan then I’d rather Tæ-joo be the one dancing on the throne with him". Anyways that's my 2 cents.

PrettyCarEye wrote:

As for Min-jæ I can not remember ANY good that man has ever done for anyone. He screws over anyone who stands in his path ... Yoon, his 2nd wife, his cousins, Tæ-joo even his own damn father. I never saw any redeeming qualities in him whatsoever. That's why to me he's the epitome of a true psychopath.

When I said he had some good points, I meant he wasnt entirely cold at heart. Doesnt mean I think he is a good peson either. In fact out of the three he was no doubt the bad guy. But, more than Min Jae, to me, the true evil person was the stepmother. What a nasty human being.

I think the issue here is that, I don't see Tae Joo as an evil person by nature. And perhaps I led you to believe that is the case. I don't. I don't think he is "evil" but I do saw him as someone who wasn't really pure with his intentions. And I admit now, and I did before, that his start was okay. It was his path what I had issues with. I too felt bad for him at the end. T.T

PrettyCarEye wrote:

Coffee: I do agree there was some affection and respect which developed over time between him and Seo Yoon, but I think he viewed her as coming from bad 'seed', and she in my view 'looked down on him' in terms of his pedigree and I don't think that was going to change.

Indeed.


Coffee: It's a pity that both she and Tae-joo got caught up in their manic obsessions; and notwithstanding my understanding Seo Yoon's reasons I really could not empathize with her character mainly because I felt she was basically a right snob. As I watched the antics of that horrendous family I kept thinking 'but these people came from 'nothing' how dare they look down on someone who wants to do better'. Yes, Tae Joo could have started his own empire but look, the Chois built their empire on destroying the lives of others so as I see it, turn around is fair play.

WORD! (esp the part in bold)
I really wanted to slap her when she told TJ she's going to send him back to Chillengdong ghetto where he belongs. At that point I really wanted Tæ-joo to annihilate she and her family of vultures.

Hahahahaha... go ahead and trash my lady while Im down!! :p
I agree Seo Joo was a snob and she also was kind of naive in her thinking that she could get loyalty out of certain people. However, like Tae Joo was NO ANGEL, Seo Joo in my eyes is allowed to have flaws. I love her.

I have to say that what made me realized that Tae Joo was not in love with Sul Hee was that while Sul Hee was away in prison, Tae Joo forgot about revenge, forgot about greed. He was living stale, true, but he had forgotten about the things that aren't necessarily good in his life. Like revenge and greed, those two things combined are like a magnet for destruction.
When he goes to his father's memorial with Seo Yoo I see in Tae Joo a potential of becoming a good man like he initially was (because my chingu I never said he was born evil lol) The Tae Joo that goes to see his dad at the building, and the one that even tries to safe him is the good man. The Tae Joo that came to Sul Hee for money is the start of the bad Tae Joo.
I saw Sul Hee as someone who reminded Tae Joo that he didnt have time to play good guy anymore, that he needed to focus in what he wanted and what he wanted was to be the devil to the Choi.
Do they deserve a devil? Yes, but that doesn't mean I agree that would make Tae Joo the hero. Not as long as he uses the same tools as the Choi family.

Now that I look back, Im really glad he did what he did at the end. Because like my chingu here says, he redeemed himself and not only that, he STOPPED himself from being that guy anymore. He didn't think living would allow him to do that, so he died. Beautiful.

NinaJade82 wrote: When I said he had some good points, I meant he wasnt entirely cold at heart. Doesnt mean I think he is a good peson either. In fact out of the three he was no doubt the bad guy. But, more than Min Jae, to me, the true evil person was the stepmother. What a nasty human being.

I think the issue here is that, I don't see Tae Joo as an evil person by nature. And perhaps I led you to believe that is the case. I don't. I don't think he is "evil" but I do saw him as someone who wasn't really pure with his intentions. And I admit now, and I did before, that his start was okay. It was his path what I had issues with. I too felt bad for him at the end. T.T

But that's what I'm saying though ... where did he display that he had the slightest semblance of a heart? Just because he took candies for the his dad in prison? Or because he clipped Yoon's toenails only to later send her to her grave without even backward glance?

I'm not just being argumentative here, chingu!
I saw him showing some emotion, sure, but I really can not remember ONE scene in which Min-jæ did something selfless. If you know of one please tell me. From what I can remember if he stands between a human relation & a vice which brings him closer to the empire, you can put down money that he's going to choose the latter.

That's why he's a psychopath because he's incapable of forming lasting human attachment. Human beings to him are dispensable, instruments which are to be used to accomplish his own selfish gains. And he regrets nothing. Even though he appears to love his father and his former wife Yoon, when they no longer served his purposes he threw them under the bus.

You can't accuse Tæ-joo of doing this (prior to his final meltdown which I will continue to maintain occurred in a moment of high intensity mania). Tæ-joo was unfailingly loyal and protective of the people around him. And this just wasn't limited to his inner circle. We didn't get see much of his interactions with the outside world, but I think his dealings with that ahjussi from his town was very telling. He was very respectful of and helpful to that guy.

For me, the entire Choi family (with the exception of Seo Yoon & her step brother) displayed a level of psychopathy that was shocking to behold. That's why Min-jæ is irredeemable to me. Because that's what he was born into, that psychopathy is an intricate part of his psyche. Tæ-joo on the other hand, though ambitious and having some amount of greed, was raised with a different set of values. He still valued humans over possessions. He veered off the path of good for a bit but he could have come back to it since by end of the show he realized his mistakes. That's why I'm dissatisfied with the ending.

Sending a man who can be redeemed to hell seems a bit extreme to me. I hope when he faces God at the pearly gates, the Big Man will give him a break. Maybe send him to purgatory instead ... so he can work his way up to heaven later! :p
If anybody can do it, he sure can!