[Discussion] Golden Empire

I watched the 23rd episode and I am pretty sure that Tae Joo's ending won't be pretty. Then some stupid person spoiled the ending for me and I want to kill him.

What an awesome drama! I loved it a lot and so far it's the best drama of this year.

OMG, this epic scene and perfect quote! I miss Empire of Gold :(

CheerfulSoul wrote: OMG, this epic scene and perfect quote! I miss Empire of Gold :(

And then we see a boat passing by LOL... I know it had nothing to do with what happened, the boat was probably not even part of the drama, but it made crack up, I thought "Tae Joo has something up his sleeve"

ATTENTION - This post contains SPOILERS. Do not NOT read if you're watching or plan to watch this show.



For Nina-ssi:

My interpretation of Tæ-joo vs Yours

I think where you and I differ in our opinions of TJ is the source of his motivations. Whilst you say it’s coming from a place of negativity and darkness. I say it’s naivete, idealism and ego … the often times over the top, but harmless tendency men have to overestimate their own abilities. TJ is a pretty young guy. Barely in his 30s. He’s a lawyer, but someone with relatively little life experience. When you’re young it’s easy to think you are in control of your destiny (all the time) and that you can persevere and conquer. To me TJ is just a naive kid with a big ass ego & big dreams. With no one to guide his path (for eg his dad) he becomes somewhat of a loose cannon, esp where the Chois are concerned, & got in waaaaay over his head which led to him losing his mind in the process. He DOES have some darkness in him (like we all do, given the right circumstances), but I didn’t, and still don’t, see him as this inherently bad person.

Why? Because throughout the drama I saw how he dealt with his personal relationships. I perceived a lot of his choices and actions to be unselfish. He’s loyal to people & looks out for their interests. Yes, he can be a ruthless business man and isn’t afraid to get his hands dirty bribing officials and what not, but to me that’s part of the game so it doesn’t put too much of a blemish on who he is in my eyes.

However, even while he’s ruthless in his business dealings he lives by a code. He never screws anyone over first. As far as I can remember throughout the show he only retaliates against those who throw under the bus first. His default is always to try and honour his commitments.

Even when he makes Seul Hee take the fall for him, he does so with the (perhaps misguided, naive) thought that he is fighting for a greater good that would benefit them all in the long run. He’s thinking when he gets the empire, he’ll have rid the world of these awful people. Naively he doesn’t realize that he’s setting the stage to follow in the footsteps of the Chois. Being a bit of a egomaniac, probably even a bit narcissistic, he doesn’t really grasp the infectious nature of wielding the type of power being chairman provides. He compares himself to Hitler, but as I watched it didn’t strike me that he understood the ramifications of what he was saying.

He likes that Hitler thought BIG - he was gonna conquer a whole continent which metaphorically compares to Tæ-joo’s own desire of conquering the Chois and gaining the empire just to spite them. He likes that Hitler never gave up in what he believed was right & kept on fighting even in the face of defeat.

But MORALLY I don’t think he & Hitler had the same motivations AT ALL - that’s why I said he doesn’t understand the ramifications of comparing himself to such an inherently evil man. All along Tæ-joo swears he’s morally superior to the Chois, that he’s nothing like them … so from the start his way to hell is paved with GOOD intentions.

Whilst Hitler was a hateful monster from the very beginning (of his political career … no one is born evil), Tæ-joo in his mind wanted to have power so he can do good - his reasons are both selfish and unselfish. SELFISH because he wants revenge against the Chois for killing his father AND because he doesn’t want to go through life bowing his head to others like his dad did. Others will bow THEIR heads to HIM. UNSELFISH because he wants to build lots of affordable housing for poor people like his dad; he’ll marry Seul Hee out of duty and obligation because he knows she loves him and because she gave him his start and made a lot of sacrifices for him. He’s grateful and loyal to her for all that so he’ll give himself to her even though he’s not that into her; he’ll take care of his family, giving them the opportunities his father never could; he’ll set up the guys at EDEN real nice. All this good stuff.

But again, he doesn’t realize that he’s on his way to becoming just like the Chois.

When it comes to the dynamic between him & Seul Hee, I agree with you, he doesn’t love her. His motivation for marrying Seo Yoon is the same as him asking Seul Hee to take the fall for him. He has to do it because he's fighting to save the world. That's why he keeps on telling Seul Hee ... 'just wait a little longer, we're so close!'

I believe if he didn't feel indebted, obligated & loyal to her he would've stayed with Seo Yoon. Think about it, staying married would have made his life a whole lot easier. He'll be rich (something he's always aspired to be) and he'll be several steps closer to the empire, esp given that Seo Yoon did NOT want to chair it anyway. Eventually she would have gladly handed it over to him because at the end of the day TJ was Seo Yoon's only ally in that house & she realized this.

He always supported her and took her side when her siblings & evil stepmom were picking at each other like vultures over the latest share (again this is a testament to his nature as a guy who looks out for his 'own', who is loyal). And last but not least, I think he & Seo Yoon developed some affection / mutual respect for each other. I really do believe that. I think if there was a woman in the show that TJ loved or could love it was Seo Yoon, not Seul Hee. But it wasn't in Tæ-joo's nature to betray people who have been good to him. He knew Seul Hee was counting on him so asked for a divorce when he became majority shareholder, thereby starting a new war between him and Seo Yoon (the situation was also exacerbated by Seo Yoon's betrayal of him - when she sold him out to save her step brother).

Why? I believe it's because of how he was raised. I don't think we should underestimate the influence of the type of family he was brought up in. A good, righteous family. Yes, TJ had his own complicated personality, but the righteous influence of his father still lived in him.

So to me he WAS David against a mammoth Goliath. I didn’t see his determination and drive as merely just a cover for his dark nature. I believe the fundamental elements of his true nature were positive. I saw an ambitious, complex young man who is being motivated by a combination of complex circumstances - his poor upbringing, his desire to support his family, his own personal ambitions to acquire status and wealth and his strong desire for what he believes is social justice. So I wanted him to achieve his goals. I wanted him to win. I wanted him to raise above the life he was ashamed of and provide for his family in the way that he wanted.

What I didn’t see coming was him losing sight of all these positive goals and becoming obsessed with bringing down the Chois. It plunged him into madness and led a promising guy straight to the depths of hell. ‘While, you’re busy digging a grave for your enemy, dig one for yourself too’ - I think this saying was created because of someone like Tæ-joo.

In closing, this is how I look at it. Whoever gets the empire will continue the vicious circle because to get to the throne you HAVE to sell your soul. There’s no way around it. Seo Yoon at the beginning of the drama was an idealist herself, thinking she too is above the morally bankrupt people in her family. But throughout the course of the show as she fights to keep the empire within the Choi family she too jumps into bed with the devil & by the end of the show she’s so damaged that there’s no turning back for her either. She’s now just like her brutal father and cousin, Min-jæ.

So if all 3 players are dancing with Satan then I’d rather Tæ-joo be the one dancing on the throne with him.

ATTENTION - This post contains SPOILERS. Do not NOT read if you're watching or plan to watch this show.



For Nina-ssi:

My response to a few of your specific points

N: Well, I loved Tae Joo. I didn't hate him exactly, I had a love hate relationship with him. I wanted him to win at the end at all cost, but not by winning the Chair to the group. Why? Because it was never his to begin with. This drama delivers a very strong and simple message that many of us take for granted; and that is to be thankful for what we do have at present, and live by what we preach. Simple. Yet, it is one of the hardest things to accomplish in life. We often want more than what we have/need, and judge others for doing exactly what we do.

P: I disagree. I believe Tæ-joo is perfectly within his right to try and take over Sun Jin Group. Just because the Choi family created the Group doesn't mean they have a single handed 'right' to it. Business is a complex, opportunistic enterprise - and you're only as good as how well you stay on top of your competition and or those who seek your ouster. Even in real life, look around you … not all founders of companies and big conglomerates (or the families of such) are the ones sitting on the throne. There is no guarantee for that, esp after it becomes a public company in which many different people have a stake.

N: Okay, now we can move on. Tae Joo's father was a man of poor means, and very humble. He bowed his head to all the big bosses because he was not powerful and had no drive to be either way. He was certainly not a leader, but he was rightful and honorable. And knowing he would never have the power to rule his own destiny, he at least kept his dignity and honor. Which served him for nothing in the end as he died... still, this is what the writers are trying to say, Tae Joo took his father's life experiences and together with the corruption of Min Jae and money, he became the worst version of himself.

P: I think you and I see Tæ-joo and his dad’s influence on him differently. Yes, your description of the father is true, but I think as he faces the end of his life the father had terrible regrets. Regret that he never fought to get the respect that he craved. Regret that he made no effort to change his fate or that of his family, that he was just a dog from the Chillengdong ghetto who bowed his head to everyone and took whatever was handed to him. Sure, he lived a righteous, honourable life … but that means nothing when you have nothing, when you depart from this world & leaving your family behind to suffer.

To me the dream TJ has in prison, when his father appears to him … is his (TJ)’s resolution to not live such a pitiful life like his father. He wants to find something to respect about his father. So he imagines his father telling him to not be a loser like him. His dad is admitting he never did enough to raise above his circumstances when he was alive. I see nothing wrong with TJ’s ambition to strive for something better than what is. Because if you no longer want to be poor, you must fight to be rich. There’s no guarantee that you’ll win the fight, but you must try. So he resolves himself to try, to never give up and most importantly to WIN. I doubt at that time he himself thought that he’d plunge to the depths that he did by the end of the drama. I think he was equally naive and pompous in his belief that he could take down the Chois by his wits and pure determination alone (not that he’d end up with blood on his hands).

N: So here we have a character who is not really under the arc of the "hero" but he is some sort of anti-hero right from the start. He is negative as a character because he is ashamed of his father who is a good man, from a writer's point of view I immediately know he is not ending well. Add to that the drama starts by showing you the worst version of Tae Joo: when he told Sul Hee to take the crime for him. Tsk, tsk. When you love someone, I don't care who you are, you just don't push them in the fire. But... I'll continue... >>>So Tae Joo was good, yes, he was. But he was walking on the dark side, and was heading to hell head first. Only we don't see this on the surface because we want him to win in the end, so we root for him and tend to oversee the small details that tells us he is just not going to ever STOP! After the group (if he would have gotten it) he was not going to STOP.<<<



P: Interesting analysis, esp that last bit. Now that I think about it you have a point. Though like I’ve stated before I didn’t missed the little cues that suggested there’s a dark side to Tæ-joo’s character. For me, they were always there, but 2 things.

1) it made the character more human. He’s not a cookie cutter character. No one is completely good or completely bad. All of us have a little darkness in us, but that doesn’t mean we’re evil.

2) I felt TJ has redeeming qualities. There is no doubt that he has greed. To have ambition you need to imbue a certain level of greediness. However, I don’t think it was the sick type of greed like Min-jæ and the rest of the Choi family had.

I’ll be repeating what I said earlier, but let’s break it down. Tæ-joo is loyal, he’s filial, he looks out for his people and treat pretty much everyone around him with the respect they deserve (I’m thinking about that ahjussi from his hometown). Not once did I see him screw people over for his own benefit … but A LOT of people -- often people who thought he could trust -- screwed HIM over for their own benefit. That ahjussi from his hometown, Min-jæ, the Congressman, even Seo Yoon (with whom he thought he’d developed some sort of bond, if only grudingly). This to me proves that evil is not his default characteristic. It is first when you screw him, he tries to screw you. I see nothing wrong with that. What is he to do? Lie down and make these bastards make a doormat out of him? Isn’t that what his father did all his life, pretty much until his dying day? That’s why when he killed the Congressman I didn’t really blame him because that was clearly self-defence. Asking Seul Hee to take the fall of his crime on the other hand was a pretty bone-headed move, but again I don’t think it was coming from a place of malice even though he was clearly upset that she had gone behind his back and slept with the Congressman to get the information they needed.

The Chois are TJ’s achilles heel, no doubt about it. So yes, I agree that he was not going to STOP in his desire to exact revenge on the them. That is why he told Seul Hee to go to jail for him. He’s thinking if he goes to prison now, who will fight those pieces of shit? No, I have to be here to keep them from ruining other people’s lives like they did mine. This will benefit us all in long run … me, my family, Seul Hee sonbæ, the guys at Eden, heck the whole country! Besides, the court is going to rule it was self-defense and she’ll be out in a jiffy. This is his rationale. He’s so obsessed with bringing down the Chois, besting them … that he doesn’t even realise how despicable a lot of his own thought processes and actions are, that he’s slowly turning into the monster he claims to be fighting against.