Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

 Rain_83223:

After thinking more carefully about all the implications, I do realize that this is a very valid concern for an ending where they reunite in the afterlife, similar to AH's fic. Like you said, I also don't want XL to do nothing but wait, and I do hope he found a purpose or new enlightenment besides love. (I'll have to come up with an appropriate headcannon.)

In my head canon, time doesn't exist,as we know it, in the afterlife.   :)

 AH :

Once I have posted a long excerpt as part of a discussion on a particular topic, I usually don't repost the same excerpt again as the discussion progresses, as I (and everyone else, if they are inclined) can easily refer back to the first excerpt and, if I need to, I'll refer to or re-copy shorter bits of specific text as I did in my second comment.

SMH.

 AH :

I view one sentence (the sentence in green) as providing the timeframe in which the actions described in the next paragraph, including the fragment of a sentence (the fragment in blue) at the end of the next paragraph, took place. That interpretation does not disregard the in-universe context or the meta context of these sentences. I acknowledge both and feel that both support, rather than contradict, my interpretation. 

This seems to be the formula you've applied:
ambiguous fragment + exposition timeline = questionable generalization

That’s why it’s problematic. The timeline serves as neutral information, separated intentionally from the subjective paragraph that follows it. You also chose a fragment of a rather complicated sentence, whose purpose is to support the preceding phrase, yet actually contradicts it instead, creating ambiguity in both. By extracting the fragment out of context and combining it with the timeline in your interpretation, you’re choosing to disregard its ambiguous nuances entirely in your application along with the author’s deliberate structure and phrasing.

I view the timeline as independent from the paragraph with XY’s depictions. While I’m not interpreting that a verbal interaction occurred, I also don’t rule it out. For me, keeping the door open to potentiality is an important distinction. The “hints and traces” you indicated you thought the novel provides when it comes to YaoLiu are typically not found in the immediate context. Which is why leaving the door open in the reader’s mind for a particular episode is critical when examining the novel in greater length or entirety. In reading a novel with hidden lines and buried layers, grasping too tightly to the literal over the figurative, when indications suggest otherwise, may prevent you from fully recognizing the layers of meaning that make this novel unique. In this kind of work, appreciating its full depth requires maintaining openness to potential interpretations.

 AH :

 AH :
IMO, the fact that XY was shown to have had one conversation with Ah Nian (where XY told Ah Nian how sad she was), was shown to have had one conversation with Shao Hao (where she told him about how she was thinking of her mother abandoning her), and made poison for XL on one or two occasions (as this was something she did once every three months, not something she would do constantly / "the whole time") during the "几个月" (several months) that she spent on Five Gods Mountain in chapter 30, doesn't negate the comparison with her behaviour during the month in QS town in chapter 32.

XY had no reason to ignore Ah Nian and Shao Hao, or to not speak to them, in chapter 30. They hadn't done anything to upset her. And XY was not rendered mute in chapter 32. She chose not to speak to XL during that time, for a reason. He had done something to upset her.

In both circumstances, XY woke up (late) every day but still got out of bed, presumably ate, presumably drank, presumably took care of her own bodily functions and personal hygiene, spent a significant portion of her time awake staring in a daze, went back to bed, and slept poorly. She didn't practice her archery. She didn't study poisons or medicine. She didn't go out. Her behaviour in the two situations was not absolutely exactly the same of course, because the context was different. The period on Five Gods Mountain was longer, XY was with family members who weren't the ones that upset her, and the circumstances that led to XY being upset were different. But for the most part XY's behaviour in the two situations was, IMO, remarkably similar.  To the point where I thought that Tong Hua likely intentionally created parallels between them for readers to observe. 

I have a suggestion and potentially fun exercise. If you can summarize a response – in four average-length sentences (giving you an extra sentence to the three in mine) – I promise to examine it.

 Rain_83223:

Rain_83223 1 day ago
 HeadInTheClouds:
And I 1000% do not want XL to hang around like a bad smell in some after life waiting room, waiting for XY to die and join him.
After thinking more carefully about all the implications, I do realize that this is a very valid concern for an ending where they reunite in the afterlife, similar to AH's fic. Like you said, I also don't want XL to do nothing but wait, and I do hope he found a purpose or new enlightenment besides love. (I'll have to come up with an appropriate headcannon.)

Unfortunately, no fic can perfectly resolve everything in a practical manner. So, sometimes it may be helpful to engage in a little bit of blissful ignorance and not fuss over all the details.

 Kokuto:

Kokuto 1 day ago
 Rain_83223:
After thinking more carefully about all the implications, I do realize that this is a very valid concern for an ending where they reunite in the afterlife, similar to AH's fic. Like you said, I also don't want XL to do nothing but wait, and I do hope he found a purpose or new enlightenment besides love. (I'll have to come up with an appropriate headcannon.)
In my head canon, time doesn't exist,as we know it, in the afterlife.   :)

Liddi and I chatted about this a bit in the fanfic thread a long time ago. 

My headcanon is that XL's spirit was asleep for most of the 2,000 years. So he did not have to consciously live through each of those 2,000 years alone and bored. 

 AH :

About XL's soul surviving in my fic, I'm open to your thoughts. My thinking, for the purposes of the fic, was that XL's spirit would have survived similarly to how Chi You's soul survived.

Chi You's heart continued beating in Ah Heng's chest after Chi You's body died. XL's essential soul blood ran through XY's veins after XL's body died.

Chi You was the personification of nature. XL was the king of the seas.

Chi You's body disappeared and turned into a flurry of peach blossoms, churned the earth in order to bury the corpses of the soldiers who fell on the battlefield, and then became a living peach tree forest that was Ah Heng's home for ~400 years. Where a particular peach tree had previously played an important and tragic role in their relationship.

So perhaps when XL's body disappeared and turned into black blood that wiped out all life and vegetation on the island, his spirit could have lived on, manifested in the form of something like a home... perhaps something that felt poignant and symbolic of his relationship with XY... perhaps something like the white clam shell that he disintegrated before his death. A place where his spirit could have a very long rest before it was time to wake up.

When Ah Heng fulfilled her promise to Chi You and was ready to die, her body slowly vanished and turned into blue light that joined the peach blossoms that had been dancing around her and XY. Then XY saw Ah Heng and Chi You's spirits in their human forms as they had been ~400 years earlier before Chi You's body died. The spirits embraced each other and smiled at XY before slowly disappearing along with the spirit-manifestation-peach-blossoms.

So when XY died on the island where XL had died, why shouldn't her body slowly vanish and then turn into pink light that joined the spirit-manifestation-clam-shell in the ocean just off the shore of the island? And then why shouldn't XY's granddaughter see XY's spirit and XL's spirit in human form as they had been millennia earlier before XL's body died (along with the spirit-manifestation-clam-shell) on the surface of the ocean? And why shouldn't those two spirits finally get a chance to embrace before slowly disappearing together, along with the spirit-manifestation-clam-shell?

 liddi:

 AH :
So when XY died on the island where XL had died, why shouldn't her body slowly vanish and then turn into pink light that joined the spirit-manifestation-clam-shell in the ocean just off the shore of the island? And then why shouldn't XY's granddaughter see XY's spirit and XL's spirit in human form as they had been millennia earlier before XL's body died (along with the spirit-manifestation-clam-shell) on the surface of the ocean? And why shouldn't those two spirits finally get a chance to embrace before slowly disappearing together, along with the spirit-manifestation-clam-shell?

Now you got me choked up all over again with the manifestation of the sea shell as a resting place for his fragmented soul, while he waited alone for her for so many years. What would he have done if she never found out the secret of the laughing doll? Would he have waited for an eternity? Unlike Chi Chen and A Heng, those hundreds of years were spent apart, for a sliver of hope that one day, she would come. A Heng felt Chi Chen's presence with her, but he... had nothing.

 AH :

 

 liddi:
Now you got me choked up all over again with the manifestation of the sea shell as a resting place for his fragmented soul, while he waited alone for her for so many years. What would he have done if she never found out the secret of the laughing doll? Would he have waited for an eternity? Unlike Chi Chen and A Heng, those hundreds of years were spent apart, for a sliver of hope that one day, she would come. A Heng felt Chi Chen's presence with her, but he... had nothing.

I need another makjang drama after this.

Sorry liddi!

My feeling is that XL's soul would have passed on when XY's soul passed on, even if she never found the laughing doll. So his soul would not have remained where it was for eternity.

You're right that his soul was not with XY the way Chi You's soul was with Ah Heng. Which is why I like to think that his soul waited long enough to see XY come to the island after his death, and then slept in the clam shell for 2,000 years instead of waiting for her awake all that time. 

 AH :

 

 liddi:

 AH :
Which is why I like to think that his soul waited long enough to see XY come to the island after his death, and then slept in the clam shell for 2,000 years instead of waiting for her awake all that time.

Ahh. In that case, it means that his soul only woke up again when she finally passed away, to be reunited with her. That would be a far better consolation than 等不到的等待 A wait that will never [have a chance] to see come true, because I cannot bear the thought of him waiting in vain for an eternity, forever alone.
I definitely would not want to come up with a scenario that even theoretically could risk that kind of an unrelentingly painful and tragic fate for XL.

I don't have all that convincing a rational for why it would shake out like this, other than "I like the idea of it", but I like to think that XL's soul slept for the 2,000 years after XY left the island, and then stirred when she approached the island. Specifically he would have started to stir when she used the abilities given to her by his blood in order to swim with Bei Xue and the pod of dolphins in the ocean next to Xian's ship when they were two days away from XL's island.

They sailed like that for three days and nights. The normally chatty Xiao Yao remained quiet for most of the journey, staring out over the waves, up at the moon, or at the ice crystal ball, as if willing it to answer her unspoken questions. Bei Xue grew more and more worried, but she knew that the sea never failed to ease her grandmother’s worries. On the fourth day of their journey, a pod of dolphins came to swim alongside the ship and Bei Xue convinced Xiao Yao to join them. Miao Pu shook her head and smiled at the sight of the grandmother and granddaughter leaping into the waves together and swimming faster than the dolphins, who raced to keep up. When Xiao Yao returned to the ship, she was smiling and the worry in Bei Xue’s heart eased.

Then, roused, XL's spirit was able to sense XY approaching, along with all the questions that were plaguing her. So the next night (when they were less than a day away from his island and more "in range") he sent her a dream that answered some of her questions, and enabled her to come to some realizations that answered a few more of her questions.

On the fifth night, Xiao Yao stared at the words carved into the ice crystal ball for hours before finally falling into a fitful sleep. In her dream, Xiao Yao saw a figure walking through the tents of a military camp, unaware of her presence.

Then when she arrived at the island and told her companions about XL on the beach, his spirit would have been awake and perhaps would have listened to XY telling his story. I definitely think his spirit would have been present (but unseen) when she thanked him for each of his gifts and sang her song for him again. And then when XY died and her body turned into light (like her mother's had when she died), I imagine XL's spirit returning to the ocean and to the clam-shell-spirit-manifestation where he had spent the last 2,000 years and I imagine XY's spirit feeling drawn to the ocean and to him - almost instinctively guided by his spirit, but so quickly you could blink and miss it.

Suddenly, something flickered in the corner of her eye. Bei Xue turned and saw a beautiful pink light emerge from the trees. In a moment, the light danced across Bei Xue’s path. Bei Xue turned to the ocean and blinked. Beyond the cresting waves, two figures appeared to be standing on the ocean’s surface.

 AH :

 

 liddi:
With that reunion, do you imagine them to still exist together in the manifestation of the sea shell? Or would their souls finally found rest upon their reunion, this time, together?
Tong Hua didn't describe what happened to Ah Heng and Chi You's souls after they disappeared from XY's sight and I kind of like that she left the next step open to interpretation, apart from the fact that, whatever it involved, it was something that they faced together.

I think part of the reason I like the open ended-ness is that I want them (both Ah Heng and Chi You as a pair and XY and XL as a pair) to have their chance to be together, but the idea of an eternal afterlife... it's not a thought that appeals to me. 

 liddi:

 AH :
ong Hua didn't describe what happened to Ah Heng and Chi You's souls after they disappeared from XY's sight and I kind of like that she left the next step open to interpretation, apart from the fact that, whatever it involved, it was something that they faced together.
Yes. What truly mattered, and what comforts us as viewers from that scene (and yours) is that in the end, they are together, whatever comes afterwards, if there is an "afterwards" for them.



 AH :
the idea of an eternal afterlife... it's not a thought that appeals to me.
That is an interesting idea. To be honest, I never actually thought of them existing eternally together. Perhaps similar to you, the fact that they were finally reunited, was what mattered most for me. What I could not bear, is the thought of them waiting in vain, or continuing on in an existence with the knowledge that there is no hope of ever seeing each other anymore, especially if it is an existence that is filled with regrets.

@Rain_83223, you and I also touched on this topic in this thread a while ago. ^^

We discussed the possibility that the spirits of XL's comrades might have accompanied his spirit during the 2,000 year wait.

 AH :

 Rain_83223:
One of my favorite parts is how your story heavily implied that XL was intent on waiting for XY indefinitely, but the actual duration happened to be a lifetime. This is even more touching when considered in context. In one of the early chapters, XY thought to herself that no one in the world would really wait for another person for a lifetime. Everyone would eventually leave after they get tired of waiting at some point.
Ooh I quite like that observation. Yes, XL's spirit did wait a lifetime for XY before taking the next step together with XY's spirit, despite XY's doubts that any person could ever wait a lifetime for another person.

The inspiration for XL's spirit reuniting with XY's spirit that way came from two places.

In the final scene of Titanic, Rose either enters a dream or dies and enters her own version of heaven, where her spirit (young again) reunites with Jack's spirit (young as he was when he died) at the top of the grand staircase by the clock on the Titanic, restored to it's original, pre-wreck glory. It does feel like it's implied that perhaps Jack's spirit waited for Rose for the length of Rose's long life and was ready to meet her (right at the spot where he previously arranged to meet her after their dinner with the first class passengers, so that Jack could take Rose below to experience the joy and freedom of a party with third class passengers) as soon as she died.

In Once Promised and LYF, Chi You's spirit accompanied Ah Heng for ~400 years after he died. That scenario was a little bit different since his spirit accompanied Ah Heng during that time and Ah Heng wasn't able to leave the place where Chi You died (due to the effects of her sun power). But since Ah Heng was a "monster" and Chi You's spirit did not have a body, they were sort of together but not completely. Until grown up XY finally got to meet Ah Heng and then Ah Heng was able to die and her spirit could join Chi You's spirit in death and they could take the next step together.

For Xiang Liu in my fic, I want the fic readers to have freedom to come up with the explanation that they find most satisfying (or to not over-think the details, if they prefer), but I have discussed my personal thoughts with some of the participants in this thread and the fan fic thread. At least two people expressed concern about XL having to wait such a long time (2,000 years). The way I deal with that in my own personal headcanon is to think that XL's spirit was aware when XY first visited the island (not long after XL's death) and saw that all of his plans had worked out as he intended. After XY left the island, XL's spirit went into a deep sleep, like a hibernation, instead of moving on. And his spirit remained that way until it awoke when he sensed XY approaching the island again 2,000 years later. Which was when he sent the ice-crystal-ball-making-dream to her.

But if you prefer the idea that his spirit did not enter a long sleep and instead remained "awake" while he waited for 2,000 years (despite XY's belief that no one would really wait for a person for a whole lifetime), I can see how the poeticness and poignancy of that could be appealing.

In Titanic, the last scene seemed to suggest that Jack's spirit had not waited 84 years alone, and that he had been accompanied by the spirits of the other Titanic passangers that perished when the ship sank (with the nice development that class distinctions seemed to no longer matter and no longer divided the passengers in death). So perhaps in a no-hibernation scenario XL's spirit could also be accompanied by the spirits of his comrades who died with him in the final battle while he waited? Perhaps with the added development that differences in rank or species (deity / demon / human) among the fallen soldiers would not matter at all in death? Maybe even the distinctions between kingdoms would no longer matter?

 AH :

 Rain_83223:
@AH

To be honest, I did not care that much about the details regarding how XL's spirit spent those 2,000 years, whether awake (and perhaps accompanied), or asleep. The process of how XL waited those 2,000 years did not matter as much to me as the plain act of him doing so. But thank you for letting me in on the thought process behind your work!

Lol, yep. Sometimes it's better not to over think some details. ^^

 solarlunareclipse:

-- Vol 3 Ch 18 (Chapter 51)

"Impossible! Impossible..." - She's obviously in denial about the memories being erased.
The only thing he left for her was completely gone! - The memories in the mirror were not the only things XL left for her. XY failed to mention his essential soul blood allowing her to be one with the sea, the sea map he gave her, Left Ear (who XL set up to help protect XY), and the bow & arrows, which the drama made clear that XY knew XL had gifted to her.
"You won't even let me keep a single memory!" - Her dreams and memories are filled with XL.
"Nine-headed demon! I hate you!" - She hates him so much that she decides to go explore places where she feels closest to him--the sea and islands he told her about. It's also worthwhile to note that in the novel, XL dies on an island and XY decides to go explore the islands. Similarly, in the drama, XL dies near QST and XY decides to go to QST.

Love these examples from XY, the Queen of Denial. Nicely done.

 solarlunareclipse:

In both situations, the 30+ days seem to represent a period of deliberation for Xiang Liu. In the first case, he was deciding whether to accept the gu. In the second, he might have been weighing whether to continue distancing himself from Xiao Yao while pushing her toward Tushan Jing. If this period reflects Xiang Liu’s internal struggle, it suggests the outcome wasn’t predetermined.

Interesting point, XL also gave XY his essence blood every 30+ days during the full moon for 37 years under the sea. His powers were at its peak during the full moon, I think.

 solarlunareclipse:

I disagree that TH didn't throw hints of YaoLiu's future in the crystal ball. It's not just the scene inside the crystal ball, but the ingredients used to make the crystal ball hint at rebirth and reunion in both the novel and the drama. I'll need to do a full writeup on this at some point.

By "rebirth and reunion," did you mean reincarnation or resurrection?  I'm assuming the difference is that reincarnation would be the same soul with a new body/form, and resurrection would be the same soul with the same body/form.  

 Snowcup:

Interesting point, XL also gave XY his essence blood every 30+ days during the full moon for 37 years under the sea. His powers were at its peak during the full moon, I think.

Exactly.  There's been discussion about the moon and what it signifies, but for me, the moon in various phases, it signifies YaoLiu.  Jingers keep trying to abscond with it as a symbol, but I think those scenes support the idea that XY uses Jing as a substitute for XL.

 Snowcup:

Yes, the author indicating the novel was mostly written from XY’s perspective definitely made me reflect on a few things. Good reminder that external forces in play influenced the drama as well. This makes me wistful about what it would have looked like if TH had a free hand. I wonder if there’s a rough cut out there with extra filmed footage that may have been edited out from the final version.

Tong Hua can spin it as a revision after consideration of Cang Xuan's character, but I think the 'hidden line' of that decision (making assassination of Jing a dream) points to outside influences.  Cause 'it was a dream' is such a horrible writing decision, I think it's her way of saying 'I didn't want to do that.'  lol

I don't think there's extra filmed footage.  I think things followed the leaked script pretty closely -- with the exception of the XY meets her Mom scene -- which was a last minute addition.  But it would have been cool if there Tong Hua did have a free hand and didn't have to worry about censorship or budget.  Though with my luck that would have meant more Jing.  ugh.

 Snowcup:

The drama isn’t a perfect depiction, but it surprisingly sheds valuable insight into the story in the novel, answering important questions and filling gaps. Many adaptations don’t offer this kind of additional insight into the original story, but this drama accomplished that – the added (or subtly altered) dialogue providing depth, the new scenes adding perspective, and the visual imagery revealing the hidden lines.

I agree.  Now I need to watch it yet again, but this time with the novel in hand.

 solarlunareclipse:

I agree that the epilogue drastically changes our perception of XL's characterization. Without it, I don't know if people would have been as invested in XL, as a character.

No, I'm sorry.  I meant that we never get XL's pov in the NOVEL, except in the epilogue.  But we often get XL's pov in the drama and I think it is mostly those scenes where folks complain about XL being OOC.  Upon hearing Tong Hua remind folks that novel readers' perception of XL is actually Xiao Yao's perception of XL -- and that obviously isn't a correct or honest view of XL.  So, the drama may actually present the 'real' Xiang Liu.

IDK.  I think alot of novel readers loved Xiang Liu, even before the epilogue.  But the epilogue really clinched it and explained alot.... that we didn't get, because the novel was from XY's pov.

 solarlunareclipse:

Despite having XY serve as the (unreliable) narrator, TH doesn't write about XY's thoughts and emotions in a straightforward manner. A lot of what XY believes and knows is left in the hidden lines.

That's what makes her unreliable.  She's constantly lying to herself.

 solarlunareclipse:

For example, only through CX's description do we know that XY felt a shivering feeling of bliss when XL was drinking her blood in the medicine pool. Xiao Yao's narration of this event was focused being relieved that at least she was of some use to XL so that he didn't kill her.

We also understood the blood drinking was pleasurable, when XY described FFB drinking from her wrist.

 solarlunareclipse:

To me, XY is almost more of a mystery than XL.

I don't feel XY is a mystery, so much as she's frustrating to watch / read.  Because she's not a typical 'heroic' romantic female character -- she's a very damaged character who doesn't overcome her obstacles.

I'm not getting notifications at all!

 Kokuto:

HeadInTheClouds seems to have some trauma associated with YaoLiu. lol

From XY, definately. One of the floppest female leads I've had the misfortune to come across in a long while. Granted, I haven't read much romance in years, so it's a rather short list :-). Love XL. Unfortunately, he was paired with XY. I can't remember the last time where I loved one half of a couple while disliking the other half. It's difficult to enjoy a romance like that :-). 

 Kokuto:

Come on. The heart wants what the heart wants. ;p And hopefully, after a lifetime of Jing (horrifying thought) she'll have changed.

I'm fairly certain that I've heard some friends say the exact thing. All while dating hot mess express of epic proportion :-). 

I don't share your optimism, Ko. XY continued to return to that flop - even exchanged her dignity and self-respect to free him up to wife her. Too much sunk cost so she'll continue to insist that she made the right choice. It's too bloody embarrassing, otherwise :-).

For me, that scene after he severed the Lovers Bugs link between them was him finally putting down their relationship. Never wanting to see her again means never wanting to see her again.  The image of him flying off on Mao Qui towards the sunrise was beautiful - putting behind the past and heading towards something new.  100 years of "waiting" was enough. No more waiting in any form. 

 Kokuto:

Did you see this video?

https://x.com/yup_im_that_x/status/1833303296473502134

I haven't seen this one. Is that a hint at mpreg that I saw? Lol!

I'll see if I can find the other ones that I've come across and post them in the Xl/TJC's thread.