Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

 blabla100:

@AH

 XL's 4 questions came in a specific order and each one of them opened the door to the next one.

In a way, yes. Although the way the text sets it up, it seemed like XL asked the first two questions intentionally to confirm that he did the right thing (i.e., interrupting her wedding was right, as she did not want to marry Feng Long) and to confirm his next steps (i.e., she did want to marry TSJ, so it was right to push her towards him). When she didn't answer the question about TSJ, I imagine XL understood that there might be reasons why she wouldn't want to marry TSJ in his current circumstances, so he changed the question and asked if she was willing to marry YSQ. She quickly said yes to that, confirming that he would be right to push her towards TSJ/YSQ on the understanding that TSJ's current circumstances would not last (since XL likely knew about FFYY and TSH's affair). 

IMO, the last question was not premeditated and not related to his plans. He just couldn't hold back his curiosity. So he asked. 

 blabla100:

I wonder if XY would have still refused to answer the last question if XL would have asked only that question. What was she trying to hide in fact? And from whom, from herself or from XL? 

I think it still would have been difficult for her to answer that question, to herself and to XL, without the previous questions. But the previous questions didn't make it easier, and they do provide context. 

If she could quickly say that she was willing to marry YSQ (even though she couldn't do the same when asked about TSJ) but wasn't able to say that the person she most wanted to spend the rest of her life with was YSQ, that does seem telling. 

 blabla100:

Maybe she send it in a spare of a moment, but she definetely didn't make it în a spare of a moment. She put a lot of time, thoughts and effort into it.  Making that ball was already admitting to herself that she loves XL, sending it meant admitting it to him as well, so why she refused so hard to answer that question?

I have never thought that she sent it or made it in the spur of the moment. Quite the opposite. And yet, when she sent it, I think there is a very high probablility that she still wasn't being truly and completely honest with herself about her feelings, intentions, and hopes. 

 blabla100:

I kinda believe that what XY tried to hide from herself was not the fact that she loves XL, but the fact that she doesn't love jing/17 and that's in line with the lovers bugs too, at least the way I interpret them. Add to that tianer's fake it till you make it scheme and things start to add a bit more, to me at least. 

That's not my personal interpretation (IMO, there is too much evidence that XY did have some genuine feelings for TSJ that weren't fake), but I can see your reasons for interpreting it that way.

 AH :

If a reader believes that XY has deep romantic feelings for XL and believes that XY was honest with herself about those feelings and honest with herself about her intentions when she sent the ice cyrstal ball to XL, that reader can read the second meaning into XY's words. If a reader doubts that XY has deep romantic feelings for XL (as many YaoJing fans do) they may choose to interpret XY's words as only intending the first meaning. And if a reader believes that XY has deep romantic feeling for XL but doesn't believe that XY was open and honest with herself about her feelings and her true intentions when she sent the ice crystal ball to XL (the category that I fall into), then that reader may acknowledge both meanings and wonder how much XY conciously or subconsciously intended the one meaning vs. the other. It's really masterful writing. 

Wonderfully put, and 100% agree that this is very masterful writing on Tong Hua's part. I wonder if any of us here has spent more time analyzing the novel than Tong Hua spent writing it. I've, personally, never been as obsessed over a novel as I have with this one. I've only read a handful of novels more than once.

My personal interpretation is that XY became conscious of her feelings for XL early on. Even her attempts at poisoning XL to death were tantamount to a schoolboy pulling a girl's pigtails to get her attention. It's just that romantic love was never XY's #1 priority, so she clear-headedly decided to give up XL after she found out that he was against CX. I also believe that CX is XY's shadow character, and CX's love for XY is meant to mirror XY's love for XL. The novel makes clear that CX is conscious of his love for XY, but romantic love isn't his #1 priority.

There's also plenty of evidence to back up the interpretation that XY wasn't honest with herself about her feelings or intentions for XL, so I can see where you're coming from as well. In this interpretation, I would say:

• XY's id chooses XL
• XY's ego chooses Jing
• XY's superego chooses FL

 AH :

I've referred to this as a "bid" rather than a "confession" in the past. I feel like calling this a confession is overstating it a bit, but I agree that, whatever we call it, XL rejected it.

By "bid", I mean an attempt at connection. This article explains the concept: https://www.gottman.com/blog/want-to-improve-your-relationship-start-paying-more-attention-to-bids/

I hadn't heard of the term "bid" before, so thanks for pointing it out. I see the crystal ball as a "confession" rather than a "bid." Depending on how much someone reads into the symbolism of the koi fish and lotus poison dish, and interprets the meaning of "知音" (zhī yīn), a case could be made for that event also leaning more towards the "confession" end of the spectrum.  Other than those events, I agree that "bid" is the more appropriate term to use for the other scenarios where  XY tried reaching out to XL. 

 AH :

This is a very kind interpretation of XY and her motives.

In general, I try to be as kind as possible to XY in my interpretations. Just like I often see you defending Jing, I don't necessarily feel XY deserves all the hate she gets. People rail on XY for not being decisive and firmly choosing XL, but I feel the novel takes place during a period of time where none of the women have the power to choose who they want to be with. XY, FFYY, A Nian, Xing Yue--they can only make bids, and hope the one they love will choose them and circumstances allow them to be together. This article on the suffering of women under the patriarchy of LYF resonated with me: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/665118871.

"It's one of the many situations where Tong Hua leaves things vague and open to interpretation."

I totally agree that TH left a lot of things vague and open to interpretation, but I definetey don't agree that the crystal ball can be interpreted differently than what it obvious is, a love confession. I really don't believe that TH  tried to be vague on this one at all. I mean come one, that whole scene looked basically like the merpeople pursuit and like their 37 years underwater, the mermaid had her hand on her heart, pleading and calling... XY waiting for XL to come for 7 days, what did she wait for if that poison was sent with the sole intention of being her last? No, for sure that's not vague at all. XY always viewed XL as a candidate, why would she asked yellow emperor if it's ok to marry her enemy, why would she tell feng long that the one who has the ability, doesn't have the will... Really, I know there are a lot of things open to interpretation, but I don't believe TH was that vague. 

 AH :

I partly agree.

"This is the last time." could be read as XY saying that this is the last time she is going to send him a poison creation (which would be consistent with what she told XL in chapter 29).

"This is the last time." could be read as XY saying that this (sending the ice crystal ball to XL) is the last time she will say or do something that hints at her feelings for XL/FFB in the hopes that he will reciprocate and choose her.

"This is the last time" could even be read as XY intending both meanings (something like, "This is the last time I'll try, and this is the last time I'll send a poison creation to you under the guise of fulfilling my promise. But if you choose me and we're together in the future, I might still make poisons for you simply because I want to and I won't have to use others to send those poisons to you.").

But I don't think we, the readers, can say with confidence that when she said, "This is the last time." XY definitely meant more than just the first meaning (that this would be the last time that she would send poison to XL) and therefore we can conclude that she was definitely being honest with herself about her feelings and her intentions.

It's one of the many situations where Tong Hua leaves things vague and open to interpretation. If a reader believes that XY has deep romantic feelings for XL and believes that XY was honest with herself about those feelings and honest with herself about her intentions when she sent the ice cyrstal ball to XL, that reader can read the second meaning into XY's words. If a reader doubts that XY has deep romantic feelings for XL (as many YaoJing fans do) they may choose to interpret XY's words as only intending the first meaning. And if a reader believes that XY has deep romantic feeling for XL but doesn't believe that XY was open and honest with herself about her feelings and her true intentions when she sent the ice crystal ball to XL (the category that I fall into), then that reader may acknowledge both meanings and wonder how much XY conciously or subconsciously intended the one meaning vs. the other. It's really masterful writing. 

 blabla100:

"It's one of the many situations where Tong Hua leaves things vague and open to interpretation."

I totally agree that TH left a lot of things vague and open to interpretation, but I definetey don't agree that the crystal ball can be interpreted differently than what it obvious is, a love confession. I really don't believe that TH  tried to be vague on this one at all. I mean come one, that whole scene looked basically like the merpeople pursuit and like their 37 years underwater, the mermaid had her hand on her heart, pleading and calling... XY waiting for XL to come for 7 days, what did she wait for if that poison was sent with the sole intention of being her last? No, for sure that's not vague at all. XY always viewed XL as a candidate, why would she asked yellow emperor if it's ok to marry her enemy, why would she tell feng long that the one who has the ability, doesn't have the will... Really, I know there are a lot of things open to interpretation, but I don't believe TH was that vague. 

When I said that "it's one of the many situations where Tong Hua leaves things vague and open to interpretation, the "it" / "situation" I was referring to was specifically the meaning that XY intended when she said "This is the last time." not the meaning of the ice crystal ball itself.

That said, I do think that Tong Hua leaves some room for interpretation with the ice crystal ball too, although not as much as with the "This is the last time." line. 

I personally view the ice crystal ball as conveying XY's feelings for XL and her hope that he will come to her and give her a reason to not marry Feng Long, but in a way that was subtle enough that it gave her some cover to pretend, to herself and to others, that it didn't necessarily have that meaning. For every detail that screams one meaning (e.g., one of the mermaid's hands on her heart, and the other outstretched to the merman) there is another detail in the text that provides cover to obfiscate the meaning (e.g., XY's comment in chapter 29 about not sending poisons to XL after she's married and the note that XY sends along with the ice crystal ball). And I think these details should be viewed collectively. 

I know that some others view it as a more direct and overt confession / request. To the extent that that interpretation can be supported without contradicting canon, I think that is also a valid interpretation, even though it differs from mine. 

And Tong Hua includes enough vagueness and contradictions that I'm sure a case for other interpretations can be made, and YaoJing fans must have many. If I'm remembering correctly (and it's been a very long time so it's possible that I'm not), at one point in this discussion thread there was even a YaoLiu fan who was annoyed with XY because they felt like the ice crystal ball conveyed the idea that XL and XY belonged to different worlds and could not be together, so it was almost like conveying a rejection or a farewell to XL, rather than a confession or a plea. 

I grew up being trained to be able to take a set of facts and use them to build a case for either side of an argument, so perhaps I see more room for interpretation in these types of circumstances than most other fans would. 

 AH :

Interesting. I would take the schoolboy analogy as a classic example of a situation where I would usually think the person was probably acting on their feelings without being fully aware of them. 

Touché. I'll say that by the time they were watching the moon rise on the surface of the ocean, WXL seemed self-aware enough of his feelings for XL to make a bid to XL by saying, "Scenery is always dead, only people can give it meaning.” 

 AH :

For all three of them, the man they loved didn't love them back they way that they loved him or in the way that they wanted to be loved. But that's a different issue than not being able to choose who they wanted to be with. 

True. My point was more that these women firmly choosing the men they wanted to be with had little bearing on them ending up with those men. The men held the power in society and held the choice in the relationship. 

CX chose to use Xing Yue and A Nian as pawns to solidify his rule. As long as these women offered themselves up as choices and had something to offer, it didn't matter to CX whether they firmly chose him or not. In fact, Xing Yue did not firmly choose him when given the opportunity to prove herself, but CX still accepted her later because she had something to offer.

Hou chose to use FFYY as a pawn to get revenge on Jing. It probably didn't matter to Hou if FFYY firmly chose him or not. He later chose to betray her by letting her take the fall for their affair. After that, he chose to betray her by pursuing XY. All FFYY had the power to do was deal with the fallout from Hou's choices.

Of course, XL is the exception. He wasn't going to use XY as a pawn and discouraged her from seeing him as a choice. So it's difficult for me to see how XY could have chosen him, let alone "firmly chosen" him. I guess she could have let Jing die, disregarded her family's wishes, betrayed CX, and run away to join XL at his military camp. Even then, XL would probably have chosen to send her right back.

 AH :

Although I think there's some Tong Hua interview translation that's gone around before that suggests that her confession would have made a difference. If I'm remembering that correctly, I would love to hear Tong Hua's thoughts on when the confession could have occurred and how it would have changed things. 

Same. This would be super interesting to hear.

 solarlunareclipse:

Touché. I'll say that by the time they were watching the moon rise on the surface of the ocean, WXL seemed self-aware enough of his feelings for XL to make a bid to XL by saying, "Scenery is always dead, only people can give it meaning.” 

Hmm. Two thoughts there. 

First, one doesn't need to have (or be aware of having) romantic feelings for another person in order to make a bid for connection with that person. The article discussed bids in the context of romantic relationships, but we can make bids for connection with family, friends, peers, co-workers, and even strangers. They just come up more often, and play a very important role, in romantic relationships (which, hopefully, involve romantic feelings). And one doesn't necessarily need to be aware that they are making a bid for connection in order to make one. For many people, conscious bids for connection (where the person who says or does something in order to make a bid for connection is aware that they are saying or doing that thing in order to make a bid for connection) are probably more of an exception rather than the norm.

Second, seeing WXL's comment there as a bid for connection with XL is one possible interpretation. But not the only possible interpretation. 

So, IMO, WXL's comment is not a reliable indication that she already had romantic feelings for XL at that point and was aware of them.

 solarlunareclipse:

My point was more that these women firmly choosing the men they wanted to be with had little bearing on them ending up with those men. The men held the power in society and held the choice in the relationship.

CX chose to use Xing Yue and A Nian as pawns to solidify his rule. As long as these women offered themselves up as choices and had something to offer, it didn't matter to CX whether they firmly chose him or not. In fact, Xing Yue did not firmly choose him when given the opportunity to prove herself, but CX still accepted her later because she had something to offer.

The marriage between Xing Yue and CX happened when it happened because Xing Yue wanted / was ready for it to happen. CX entered the marriage for political reasons, and he would have benefitted from marrying Xing Yue even more if he had married her sooner. But Xing Yue wasn't willing to marry him sooner. So they didn't marry sooner. They only married with Xing Yue was ready. To me, that demonstrates that Xing Yue had more control over her marriage to CX than CX had. 

The marriage between Ah Nian and CX happened when it happened because the Grand Emperor wanted to make sure that his daughter was happy and looked after before giving up his throne. If Ah Nian had told him that she didn't want to marry CX, the marriage would not have happened. Ah Nian came with a kingdom and a throne - an offer that CX would not refuse. Again, it seems to me like Ah Nian had more influence over her marrying CX than CX had. 

I felt like Xing Yue and Ah Nian each choosing to marry CX when they did had a huge bearing on them ending up with him. I don't think either marriage would have happened if they didn't want it to happen. They wanted to be with CX, and CX needed them to further his political ambitions. In both cases, Xing Yue and Ah Nian were not powerless over the outcome. 

 solarlunareclipse:

I feel the novel takes place during a period of time where none of the women have the power to choose who they want to be with. XY, FFYY, A Nian, Xing Yue--they can only make bids, and hope the one they love will choose them and circumstances allow them to be together.

 solarlunareclipse:

CX chose to use Xing Yue and A Nian as pawns to solidify his rule. As long as these women offered themselves up as choices and had something to offer, it didn't matter to CX whether they firmly chose him or not.

I'm not following. Perhaps CX cared whether Xing Yue and Ah Nian chose him. Perhaps he didn't. Either way, how is that relevant to determining whether Xing Yue and Ah Nian had the power to choose who they wanted to be with? They both wanted to be with CX, and they both had enough control over their own circumstances that their desire to be with CX led to each of them marrying CX. 

 solarlunareclipse:

Hou chose to use FFYY as a pawn to get revenge on Jing. It probably didn't matter to Hou if FFYY firmly chose him or not. He later chose to betray her by letting her take the fall for their affair. After that, he chose to betray her by pursuing XY. All FFYY had the power to do was deal with the fallout from Hou's choices.

Again, I don't understand the logic here. Perhaps TSH cared if FFYY "firmly chose him or not". Perhaps he didn't. And TSH did indeed betray FFYY. But those things all seem irrelevant to answering the question of whether FFYY had the power to choose who she wanted to be with. 

When she wanted to be with TSH, she was with TSH. When she no longer wanted to be with TSH, she wasn't with TSH. 

 solarlunareclipse:

Of course, XL is the exception. He wasn't going to use XY as a pawn and discouraged her from seeing him as a choice. So it's difficult for me to see how XY could have chosen him, let alone "firmly chosen" him. I guess she could have let Jing die, disregarded her family's wishes, betrayed CX, and run away to join XL at his military camp. Even then, XL would probably have chosen to send her right back.

I agree XY and XL are different from Xing Yue and CX, Ah Nian and CX, and FFYY and TSH. 

XY might have deeply wanted to be with XL, but if she did, her desire to be with XL didn't lead her to end up with XL. 

 blabla100:

"In two months, I will get married. I will make poison for you for the last time. Please accept it."

It's obvious that by "please accept it" she meant the intention behind the poison, please accept the mermaid hand / my feelings / my invitation. It's not like XL ever refused any of her poisons before. That's pretty much in line with her 7 days wait  and with her question to XL "when did you find out I was getting married" that she asked after he eventually came and took her with him. 

 

it can be meant  plz accept it that this is the last poison and no more in future. the last sentence is plz kindly accept it (word by word is accept it with small smile)

 AH :

So, IMO, WXL's comment is not a reliable indication that she already had romantic feelings for XL at that point and was aware of them.

Yes, agree that this is all open to interpretation. That said, outside the context of the novel, I can't really imagine a girl liking someone without knowing she likes that person. The girl may not want to admit to others that she likes the person, but she knows she likes them.

Moreover, inside the context of this novel, this phrase was spoken in a  romantic setting where she grabbed Xiang Liu's hand tightly and inched closer to him, which would lead to me think that she was trying to make a conscious bid to gauge his openness towards a relationship. Even when he didn't respond, she raised the stakes with another bid by suggested that Xiang Liu side with King Xuan Yuan and betray Hong Jiang, which angered Xiang Liu and caused him to lash out at Xiao Liu. She knew this suggestion would anger Xiang Liu. Why bring this up unless she wanted to gauge the possibility of a long-term relationship with him?

Also, this event, combined with her daydreaming while tearing lotus leaves (he loves me, he loves me not), her using Chuan Zi's marriage as an excuse to seek out Xiang Liu after she hadn't seen him in several months (although she knew full well it wasn't his style to block the wedding), her flirting with him by saying she had washed up super clean in preparation for seeing him (consenting to the neck bite in the tree), her replaying the scene where she drew extra eyes on him in her gorilla beast mirror, her willingness to put her life on the line to help him get medicine, and the acceptance of the PLBs--yes it's all open to interpretation, but holistically, to me, they suggest that WXL was aware of his romantic attraction towards XL.

 AH :

I agree XY and XL are different from Xing Yue and CX, Ah Nian and CX, and FFYY and TSH.

XY might have deeply wanted to be with XL, but if she did, her desire to be with XL didn't lead her to end up with XL. 

I'll concede my previous point that FFYY, A Nian, and Xing Yue didn't have choices--they did. Relationships need mutual consent, and because CX and TSH was willing to accept a relationship with them, these girls could could choose them.

Agree that it doesn't seem like XL gave XY the option to be with him, so not sure what her firmly choosing him would have done except make him feel worse about his decision to die for honor. Again, agree that it would be great to see evidence of Tong Hua saying otherwise.