Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

@kokuto

"Doesn't this scene take place after Jing is married, or XY has found out that FFYY is pregnant?  How is a married guy a better choice than FFB? "

Yes, exactly. To answer your question of why a married guy îs a better choice than FFB, I am going to QUOTE  more of what that old man told her. 

" Li Jie Chang leaned over towards Xiao Yao “There is no perfect thing in this world and everyone makes mistakes. Jing made a mistake but it’s not an unforgivable mistake. Think about it, because he made the mistake now he’ll never make the same mistake again. After marriage you won’t even need to worry about him! You try finding a man who has never made a mistake, and even if you do you can’t guarantee he won’t make a mistake after marriage. Then you’ll be even more upset!”

Xiao Yao asked “Are you done?”

Li Jie Chang said “No!”

Xiao Yao turned her head and poured wine for Fang Feng Bei, clearly not intending to hear more.

Li Jie Chang said “You don’t like the wife and son in Qing Qiu, then just have another residence here in Zhi Yi and have Jing live here with you. Let me tell you straight up, Fang Feng Bei’s life is here today with no guarantee of tomorrow. Even Jing who made a mistake is a better choice than Fang Feng Bei……..”

He is definetely not biased towards Jing when he tells her these things, just honest. He spoke about FFB as referring to XL, so I am pretty sure he knew both Jing and XL quite well. 

"And how many times has FFB lied to XY?  How many times has he answered a question with a question?  How many times has XL said something he didn't neccesarily believe or that was untrue or that was done, just to push XY away?  I don't think XL thinks XY really is unworthy or an idiot -- both of which he has told her too."

No, that's quite different. As far as I remember FFB / XL not once lied to her with anything. Dodging a question or calling her an idiot because he got pissed off due to her lack of will is different than point blank stating or agreeing to a fact. 

 blabla100:

Li Jie Chang said “You don’t like the wife and son in Qing Qiu, then just have another residence here in Zhi Yi and have Jing live here with you. Let me tell you straight up, Fang Feng Bei’s life is here today with no guarantee of tomorrow. Even Jing who made a mistake is a better choice than Fang Feng Bei……..”

He is definetely not biased towards Jing when he tells her these things, just honest. He spoke about FFB as referring to XL, so I am pretty sure he knew both Jing and XL quite well.

Jing is MARRIED with a kid.  That means Jing is automatically the worst choice ever, so Li Jie Chang is very much not being honest.  Jing certainly can't guarantee tomorrow to his mistress / concubine / sidepiece, much less any children they would have.  How is this guy who is being funded by Jing, and says asinine stuff like this NOT biased?

 blabla100:

No, that's quite different. As far as I remember FFB / XL not once lied to her with anything. Dodging a question or calling her an idiot because he got pissed off due to her lack of will is different than point blank stating or agreeing to a fact.

I don't think he was pissed off, and even if he was, it's still a lie, cause he doesn't believe that.  FFB flat out told her he wasn't XL.  That's a lie.  He told her she was unworthy of saving him.  That's a lie.  He told her that FFYY was his sister, that's a lie.  Before he revealed himself as XL, he was lying to her about his whole identity as he was deceiving her.  And as XL, he repeatedly lied to her about his feelings to push her away.

Lies of omission are still lies.

 liddi:

what is your opinion of Xiang Liu as a character? I wonder sometimes... was it his character arc that made him so searingly unforgettable in our hearts? Would we have loved him so much if he was given an ending that was far less tragic?

No, tragic or non-tragic ending - that wouldn't affect my affection for this character. The short answer as to why I like this character is that I find him admirable. The way that he conducted himself, and the way that he tried to do his best for the people that he loved are worthy of respect and admiration. His romance with XY is just one aspect of him; it's not the entirety of his character. 

The longer answer (you didn't think I was going to keep it short, did ya :-)?) is that I see in this character some very Buddhist elements. He mastered or is on his way to master the "3 poisons" of Buddhism - greed, anger/resentment, and delusion/ignorance. He also understood the concept of impermanence. If you look at this from a Buddhist perspective than you can view in this particular lifetime, the lesson that XL has to learn was about love and how to love in its higest form - one that it's free from the ego's possessiveness. 

I don't see XL as a matyr. His willingness to fight and died along the Shen Nong Resistance Army wasn't simply because of responsibility or repaying a debt to Gong Gong, but because he loved his comrades - it's love that born out of empathy and compassion. Empathy and compassion were also the starting point of his love for XY. For a demon with the worst reputation for cruelty, XL's actions were driven by love and protection. 9 cool heads all driven by one burning heart. He understood and accept XY and the Resistence Army - their fears, their desires and his actions are driven by these factors. He helped XY to get what she wanted; and he stayed with the Resistence Army to support their quest. Most of us who loves him probably railed against his selflessness and sacrifice eventhough we probaly loved these same things about him, but XL probably doesn't see what he does as sacrifices.  For someone who loves, the things that they do for their love ones are not perceive as sacrifices. 

In Buddhism, death is an inevitable/natural part of life and it's just another state of being. It's not an end. XL either reached enlightenment or is moving on to the next stage towards enlightenment. So, while there are time when I wished for an ending where he's alive, I'm also not that cut up about it. He's free from suffering, it's the rest of the characters still caught in the cycle of Samsara with their greed and delusions that should be concern. For them, there will be karmic lessons to learn and karmic debt to pay.

 blabla100:

How is a guy who's been tricked into a marriage, but who nevertheless loves her, worse than a guy who has his days counted?

Is this not what every married man says while trying to seduce women into bed?  "My marriage is unhappy.  My wife doesn't love me.  I love you!  I'm leaving my wife and our ten kids."  This behavior IS the worst.  It's lower than pond scum.

IF Jing actually loved XY and put her first, as some people keep claiming, he wouldn't have married FFYY at all.  He'd have eloped and married XY.  

Everyone's days are counted from the moment they are born.  So, yes, the very much unmarried FFB, with his counted days, is a far, far, far, far better choice than married Jing.  Heck, even if he had gaping chest wound, the unmarried FFB would be a better choice than married Jing.

 blabla100:

Let's not forget that back în the day, it was normal for a man to have more than a woman.

Let's not forget that having more than one woman, sent a man right off of XY's list of suitors.

 blabla100:

Neither I or that guy is saying that Jing is a perfect choice, but he is a choice after all, unlike XL, who has no guarantee that he is going to live to see another day.

And WHO ended up dying or almost dying the most?  It was useless Jing.  Who has ONE life, and who has 9, excuse me, 8 lives?  Who statistically has the better chance, and the better skills to live to see another day?  Nine LIVES Xiang Liu.

 blabla100:

Also, the reason why that old man said what he said it's not really the main point, more important îs the fact that FFB agreed to him.

Because he wanted XY to push him away, not because he was right.

@kokuto

I can't win with you, Kokuto :) let's just say we have different views on things. I am still sticking to my story, any other theory is just not convincing enough to me. 

 blabla100:

@kokuto

"People keep saying the Resistance Army was doomed from the start, but that's not true."

I personally keep saying this because I don't see TH as focusing too much on creating a political masterpiece, with all sorts of implications and connections. Politics are her weakest link, you guys keep analyzing the background of the war, but I honestly don't think TH even thought of that that much. I take XY's view on the whole situation at face value. But again, that's just my opinion. 

It's not about TH's intention or non-intention of writing a political masterpiece. TH's intention is clear - we read the novel, we know the outcome. It's about the characters' attitudes and beliefs etc. The author is omniscient. the characters are not. Do you think the 300 Spartan soldiers in 300 knew that they were going to be massacred because one of their own betrayed them? Why bother fighting when the author has every intention of killing every one of them?

As for XY. If I were a character in the novel, I'm not going to put a lot of stock into the opinion of someone whose political acumen was next to nothing; her contribution to CX's quest for the throne boiled down to being dangled as a matrimonial prize for his political connections rather than any amazing political savvy. Her worth in this matter was also based on her identity as a princess something that is linked to her father and grandfather's power rather than her own inherent ability. Of course, she right at the end because that's the story that is being told.

@kokuto

"Because he wanted XY to push him away, not because he was right."

Then again, if he didn't think that what that old man îs saying is right, why would he want XY to push him away? This is just running în circles, trying to figure out which came first between the chicken and the egg. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

we read the novel, we know the outcome. It's about the characters' attitudes and beliefs etc. The author is omniscient. the characters are not. Do you think the 300 Spartan soldiers in 300 knew that they were going to be massacred because one of their own betrayed them? Why bother fighting when the author has every intention of killing every one of them?

This.  That's why I see these statements about dying as Tong Hua foreshadowing.

And that is why I don't regard the argument of a limited time being the main obstacle for XL and XY's love.  There's no actual magical device or even situation, that guarantees at the beginning that XL has an impending expiration date.  Does it play into their star crossed love?  Perhaps, especially at the end of the story as EVENTS CHANGE.  But at the beginning?  No.  In the middle?  Maybe.

Like I said, if this was the biggest thing on XY's list of requirements, then fragile Jing would be off the list, cause this guy has already proven he's no match for Hou and is a walking dead man.

And if the main goal of XL and the Resistance Army is dying on the battlefield, then that could have happened hundreds of years ago.  All they would have had to do was march off the mountain, and face Xiyan in open battle.

 HeadInTheClouds:

As for XY. I'm not going to put a lot of stock into the opinion of someone whose political acumen was next to nothing;

 HeadInTheClouds:

Of course, she right at the end because that's the story that is being told.

This.  Much like ending up with Jing -- that's because of the story being told.