Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

 liddi:

but her ties and responsibilities to the royal family would forever bind her. And despite chaffing at those ties - ties which unsevered, meant she would always be on opposing sides to Xiang Liu, ties which meant that no matter how much she wanted to spend her entire life roaming the world freely,

I never got the sense that there were responsibilities placed on XY by her family. I think the only thing her family opposed was her being with XL and that was due to concern for her repeating the same path as her mother. I also never see XL being the enemy of her family as the primary barrier for her reluctance to pursue their relationship.  XL was dead by the end of the novel anyway, there was no need to sever the ties with her family so drastically when they would not have opposed her living her own life elsewhere. If anything they could be a great source of support for her when needed. Freedom doesn't mean drastically severing ties to your loved ones. 

 liddi:

However abhorrent Jing's actions were of foisting Tushan Zhen into the role of clan leader and shirking his responsibility as the only father the boy had ever known, that had absolutely nothing to do with her leaving for the ocean. It was an act that was done before her wedding, before she severed ties with her family.

Yes, it was done before her wedding. Yes, she is not responsible for Jing's actions. However, her and Jing running off to part unknown was made possible because of this act, so I stand by what I said that her so-called freedom and happiness were built on a child's imprisonment/abandonment. And the fact that she doesn't see anything wrong with his action/choice is also concerning considering her own experiences. Then again, she wanted YSQ instead of TSJ for this exact reason - YSQ's lack of responsibilities and ties serves her purpose. 

TH obviously set things up so that we got the ending that we got, unfortunately, the way that she went about doing this left an incredibly bad taste in this reader's mouth. Hard to cheer for this act of freedom when a child was the collateral damage. 

 liddi:

Also, with her frame of mind and grief when at last she chose to depart for the ocean and disappear, I truly doubt Tushan Zhen would have been anywhere in her thoughts at the time.

And this doesn't exactly paint her in a good light or suggest that this wasn't an act of desperation. Although to be fair to XY here,  I highly doubt she gave this poor child much thought even before this even though she was going to be his stepmother.  Poor thing was probably going to be foisted off to the retainers anyway.  

 liddi:

For someone who had been bound by fear most of her life

I guess the question is what was it that XY feared most of her life and did she manage to break out of/overcome it? Perhaps her ties to her family kept her "caged"  and unable to roam freely and in the end, she managed to break free of that. But there are physical prisons and there are psychological prisons. She may be physically free, but psychologically, I don't think she was. Wherever you go, there you'll be. And until she deals with the mental shackles then she'll never truly be free. Given this character's predilection towards hiding and lying to herself, I'm not hopeful that she'll get there anytime within a millennium :-)

 liddi:

I am just sorry that your interpretation is frustrating you, and hope that the frustration would ease over time. I think any interpretation that had to do with Xiang Liu is an invariable source of pain. Tong Hua really needs to take responsibility for all the stress her novel has caused.

The thing is, my frustration has less to do with XY and XL not ending up together and more to do with the fact that the more carefully I read the novel, the less I care about this relationship working out and the less that I like our female lead. I don't like this, damn it! I want to like my FL, and I want to enjoy my romance.

I was reading through earlier comments around 5-6 months ago and some readers/viewers were frustrated with XY and there I was all sympathetic. I was probably still going off my memory of my reading from years ago.  LOL! It took me a long while, but unfortunately, I also got to this point after doing a re-reading. I err on giving things the benefit of the doubt, so my good opinion once lost is probably lost forever ;-).  

As for XL. Yes, it makes me sad just thinking about him :-( . On my good days, I tell myself that he made his choice and that death is just a transitioning state. On my not-so-good days, I railed at the unfairness of it all; that the best character/person in the story is the one that ended up with nothing while the ones that hides gets to benefit. YaoLiu's sad ending isn't what I can't let go of, but XL.  I'm trying to practice Buddhist teachings and curbing the 3 poisons. And yet, here I am, disliking two fictional characters and unhealthily attached to another. I obviously have a long way to go towards enlightenment.          

 HeadInTheClouds:

@plor20

Thank you so much for sharing. You wrote that first essay in September. Have your opinions changed since then and would you change what you wrote if you were to do a revision now?

I also have a question for the rest of you ladies.

How did you ladies came to LYF? Did you read the book first or the drama? If it's via the novel how many times have you read it and did your opinions changed with re-reads? And if it's the drama, have you read the book and how did that impact your view of the drama? We're they very different to you? 

My opinion hasn't changed about Xiang Liu. The two characters where my opinions changed are XY and TSJ. My frustrations in the story have less to do with any of the love lines and more with XY's lack of courage, low self-awareness, and cowardice. I guess as a character-driven story, I was very unhappy with a lot of XY's decisions as they became dependent on how the men around made their decisions, and how she took their opinions/advice as some kind of bible to follow. XY was too reliant on their approval and validation.

I know some women found XY to be someone to look up to, and I just couldn't bring myself to do the same. In the end, there are two types of women who enjoyed LYF: those who aspire to be someone like XY and those who understand someone like XY, and unfortunately, I am the latter. Therefore, the decisions XY made would have been the opposite of mine if I were in her shoes, so my relationship with her as a character stumbled.

This will be my forever Roman Empire for XY's character in LYF: How can you tell someone you wished to have been the one to save them, and then do NOTHING to try to save them from themselves? Blargh... nothing, not even her psychological deficiencies can excuse this kind of character devolving.

I came into LYF through the drama. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of Yangzi, so I was reluctant to watch it. When I saw the banners in WeTV, the only person that caught my eye was XL, but I wasn't going to waste countless hours for one hour worth of screentime. Even though I was familiar with Deng Wei because of his role in TTEOTM, I wasn't impressed. I knew nothing of the other ML. Until WeTV amped up their marketing and did a bunch of XL-related clips. The one that finally drew me in was the one where Jing and XL face off the first time, after XY got her whips for trespassing, XL smirked after XY said that she was already his man. From there was just the rabbit hole, watching and looking forward to when I will meet the white-haired demon. I was incredibly saddened that the Qingshui Town arc was so short; it was the best part.

I started the novel after episode 15, I believe. I went in with no knowledge, and I already knew I was going to be Xiang Liu biased. I binged the novel in four days and cried, and then hurt my heart even more with JC's portrayal. It was perfect.

What I love about the drama was all the poetry put into the cinematography and film composition. I haven't seen this done in a LONG time in Chinese cinema.

Oh... don't get me started on Tan Jianci's acting. Let's say a young talent like his is extremely hard to find in this day and age in Asia alone! I've been watching Asian films and drama since I was like 10 years old, and the rise of idol dramas really has ruined good filmmaking. Even though Korean and Japanese idol dramas tend to be higher quality in terms of technical aspects like story, editing, and CGI, Chinese idol dramas (cinema in general) have fallen behind by focusing too much on influencer/profitability of its casts.

I am also not sure how the educational systems in China are like, but what I've seen through observation from my time in art school (I went to CalArts, a famous art school for animation/filmmaking) is that Korean students come to CalArts, learn from the best in the industry, and go back to Korea in order to land jobs at competitive stations like KBS. A few of my fellow classmates, their workplace paid for them to come to CalArts to study because it brings a level of prestige to their media firm. In conclusion, the reason Korean dramas and films have maintained a higher level of technicality is because they are not creating in a vacuum like Chinese dramas are. The Japanese cinemascape has always been rich, so they've managed to have films and dramas across the spectrum. Since the end of the HK golden cinema, Chinese cinema and dramas have been just so bad and hard for me to watch.

What I love about the novel was the poetry, well-written prose (even with Kaolo's translation, I knew the Chinese version was beautifully written), and the fantasy elements of the Chinese mythology. I literally read with anticipation that XL will show up, every chapter hoping for a glimpse of that white silhouette and how XY's decisions will change. Though the plot of LYF is mediocre, I couldn't deny the beauty of her characters, especially Xiang Liu.

The novel and the drama have their own charms. They tell a similar story but have a different vibe. In the novel, you can tell XY's decisions were strongly based on her psychological and emotional state, whereas in the drama, a more courageous XY is portrayed. XL seemed more cold in the novel because we only see him through XY's eyes, but in the drama, we get to see him through his circumstances.

Ah... this got pretty long. Haha. Sorry for the rant.

 solarlunareclipse:

"[我]所说全部属实…."
"Wǒ suǒ shuō quánbù shǔshí..."
"Everything I say is true..."

-- Vol 1 Ch 2 (Chapter 2)

Said aloud in Chinese, this can actually be pun that has the exact opposite meaning:

"我所说全不属实…."
"Wǒ suǒ shuō quánbù shǔshí..."
"Nothing I say is true..."

How cool is that!   There it is again, the layers and stuff that is hidden in plain sight.  It is little gems like this that makes me appreciate Tong Hua's skills and talents.  Thank you for sharing that.

 HeadInTheClouds:

How did you ladies came to LYF? Did you read the book first or the drama? If it's via the novel how many times have you read it and did your opinions changed with re-reads? And if it's the drama, have you read the book and how did that impact your view of the drama? We're they very different to you?

I came to LYF with the drama.  I feel like I have read the novel, given all the excerpts I've read here, but I haven't actually sat down and read it.  What I've read has made me appreciate Tong Hua and Chinese language and literature and mythology.  The novel mostly confirms what what I picked up from the drama, as well as gives me more  scenes and information.  Unlike most folks, I think the drama and the book complement each other, expanding thing that are missing from each, for the most part.  Though the novel has all these literary gems and layers that are not in the drama.

 plor20:

whereas in the drama, a more courageous XY is portrayed. XL seemed more cold in the novel because we only see him through XY's eyes, but in the drama, we get to see him through his circumstances.

That was me too.  I'm not sure about courageous, but I liked XY much better in the drama ... though she was best as WXL.

 solarlunareclipse:

So I take everything XY says or "thinks" with an enormous grain of salt. However, I find that behind her flippant attitude and attempts at self-deception are real, relatable emotions of loneliness, compassion, love, heartbreak, helplessness, desperation, and yearning.

I emphathsize with some of those things about XY, but not with her allowing her fears to rule her.   But agree, she's wholly unreliable as a narrator.  To be honest, I understand why XL fell for WXL, but XY is very frustrating to me -- as well as XL/FFB's decisions.  Though that's given me some food for thought.

As I've said before, Jing raised my hackles almost from the beginning, when he refused to leave after WXL told him to.  And he went down hill and lived down to my expectations of being a selfish emotional manipluator everytime he appeared.  Reading the excerpts has only shown me more faults of the character.

I think I got a worse perception of XY after reading excerpts, and got a better understanding of some of XL's actions after reading the excerpts.  

 solarlunareclipse:

Thanks liddi! This is very helpful. I've been trying to compile things Tong Hua's said about the novel: interviews, letters, Weibo posts, etc. I find them very helpful in understanding the novel.

 Kokuto:

Thank you for this table, liddi!  Very helpful to see it laid out like this.

You're welcome. Yes, since Tong Hua wouldn't outright say it, I am trying to find every interview, post or comment she ever made about the novel too. Unfortunately, in the past few years, these are getting harder and harder to find, and we pretty much have to depend on fans having screenshot them in the past and sharing them. 

I wonder whether she would be a little more forthcoming about her original screenplays, e.g. the forthcoming Filter, rather than novel adaptations, along with which comes the baggage of fans with preconceived ideas, or worse still obnoxious attitudes. It is a little sad when one of the reasons I am looking forward to Filter (apart from TJC) is that I am hoping to see Xiang Liu easter eggs there.

 liddi:

Hm. Interesting take. I agree that she is an unreliable narrator, but never felt that what was actually written is meant to be interpreted based on what it potentially sounds like. Do you know of other instances in the novel where this happened? I can only think of one instance in the leaked script where this happened, so it is plausible that Tong Hua employed the same technique in the novel originally

Great example on the use of 她 in the script! @AH and I had a conversation in another thread about the use of 他 to refer to the big bellied doll. It's not a clear-cut case that the 他 doesn't actually refer to the doll, but I like to interpret it as a Tong Hua Easter Egg.

大肚笑娃娃没什么实际用处，但小夭觉得可爱，捧在手里越看越喜欢。大大的脑袋，大大的肚子，穿着个石榴图的肚兜，咧着小嘴，笑得憨态可掬，小夭忍不住也对着他笑起来。

The big belly laughing doll has no practical use, but Xiao Yao finds it cute. The more she holds it in her hands, the more she likes it. A big head, a big belly, wearing a bodice with a pomegranate pattern. Pouting with a small mouth, grinning in an endearing and naive manner. Xiao Yao couldn't help but smile at him too.

-- Vol 3 Ch 18 (Chapter 51)

Here's the link to the first post of the conversation:

https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110375-would-xy-still-end-up-with-tj-if-xl-confessed-and-changed?pid=3014527&page=2#p3014527

 liddi:

In this particular case, I am not convinced that the 他 is an easter egg. A 肚兜 dudou is not just for females, but also worn by young children - both male and female - in ancient times. My opinion is that Tong Hua deliberately used 他 "he" here to indicate that the big-bellied laughing doll was that of a boy doll. Using 它 would be equivalent to "it", which is ambiguous. And assuming that the 他 refers to A Bi makes no sense as we are told that she cannot help but laugh when she looked at the doll's impish demeanour.

I agree with all of this. It aligns with my interpretation of chapter 51.

 liddi:

My opinion is that Tong Hua deliberately used 他 "he" here to indicate that the big-bellied laughing doll was that of a boy doll. Using 它 would be equivalent to "it", which is ambiguous. And assuming that the 他 refers to A Bi makes no sense as we are told that she cannot help but laugh when she looked at the doll's impish demeanour.

It definitely could be exactly what you described. However, to me the usage of 他 to specifically identify the gender of the doll is suspicious because there is nothing in the description of the doll to definitively identify it as a boy rather than an girl. AH also cross-referenced XL's epilogue, but that doesn't identify the gender of the doll. Why is it important for Tong Hua to identify the gender of the doll, almost as an afterthought?

This article says that the diminutive form 兜兜 doudou is particularly used to refer to the 肚兜 dudou worn by children. This is not to say a child can't wear a 肚兜, but not using 兜兜 means it's possible that the doll is not a child. If the doll is indeed meant to be a child, I find it suspicious that a child is wearing a pomegranate patterned dudou since pomegranates are used to symbolize fertility.

In China the pomegranate is widely represented in ceramic art symbolising fertility, abundance, posterity, numerous and virtuous offspring, and a blessed future.

[source]

I think it's plausible that Tong Hua is using Spring and Autumn Brushwork here, writing without writing that Xiao Yao examines the doll, envisions the person who made the doll smiling that same impish smile, then smiles back at him. It wouldn't be the first time that Tong Hua has used misdirection to make readers think she is referring to one thing when she is actually referring to something else.