Eleison

I completely see where you're coming from, and these kinds of dads (or moms, achem, BOFs 🙄) in Kdramas do bother me, too; I think the drama played it up to create conflict to resolve and for comedic purposes, but it's very true that this sort of dynamic would not fly in America or most other Western countries even as a joke unless, for instance, the daughter was literally still a child.

The fact that Korean screenwriters can write this in as comedy and make it work just shows me that this still resonates with families in Korea. Though, I do see what the other user was saying, too, in that there's much more of a tradition surrounding patriarchal tradition and familial respect in SK, and it seems that if you want to continue to have a relationship with your family, you don't move forward until you've figured out how to get everyone on board? (And it's not necessarily sexist, it happens for guys in Kdramas, too 😅). It's a lot less common than it used to be in Kdramas, but definitely still cropping up from time to time.

I think they did a good job of showing him super bad at dating. He messed up quite a bit because he was new to it. I quite like how they showed all his flubs and working through all the stuff a younger person who'd dated before would have worked through already, and it felt appropriate for a 30 something dating for the first time. 😅 That said, someone mature and dating for the first time probably wouldn't flub this much or this badly, but everything in this is a bit cartoon-y and overdramatic/cheesy so it worked for me that he did so badly. 😅

Cause they're family and enjoy each other? But I hear ya, a typical couple wouldn't want that. 😅

It's just one of many things in this cute drama that need suspension of disbelief.

If I remember they have a little hiccup near the end, but I think they start dating around Episode 10? I'm not positive, though, it's been a while. 😅

Hm, fascinating! I figured I was most likely projecting some of my western perspectives onto Cdramas, so thank you for bearing with my ignorance.

The dramas set in dark times having sad endings, even if somewhat fantasy-based, makes complete sense. I guess on first glance (to me), xianxia has felt so not-realistic and other-worldly that the sad endings seem unnecessary ways to end already very tumultuous stories that are completely fantastical reimaginings of ancient folktale and mythology. From my perspective, fantasy has no rules for "realistic" or "unrealistic" endings because it's fiction and fantasy, but after your explanation, I can better understand why the SEs, even in xianxia, are more readily embraced and seen as appropriate.

I liked a few of the modern dramas I watched, but in some ways they were almost too pristine and perfect, like a fantasy world in another sense. I definitely find some Cdramas a bit harder to get into, but I've still been enjoying trying some unfamiliar genres and content. And some I HAVE really enjoyed. I absolutely fell in love with both seasons of NIF. ☺️

Like you said, I'm going to have to figure out what I like as I try out new Cdramas. I'm sure I'll get a better sense for what to watch as I do more research. :) They're certainly a steeper climb culturally than Kdramas were for me, but it has also been fun learning more!

One last question, if you don't mind: would evil and badness in Chinese culture be seen as a necessary, coexisting thing alongside good (and so a kind of necessary evil) or is it a parasitic thing that feeds on corrupted goodness but which can, in theory, be completely eradicated despite goodness remaining intact? Or is it neither? 😅 Or does my question make no sense? 😂 It's just that the way evil/bad has been portrayed in a few of the fantasy dramas I've recently watched has been puzzling me a bit, which is why I ask.

Thanks for sharing! 🥰

Thank you! This is all great!

I just started the dream sequence and got a bit overehelmed by another layer of the story that felt like it would delay character development for our leads... how does Bo're Dream arc fit into growing the main leads' characters in the main story?) Here come more of my questions 😅:

Does "good" in this story mean "cares about the welfare of others and is selfless" and "bad" or "evil" mean "selfish and willing to harm others for one's own benefit"? And are all gods good except ADG? As are immortals? 😬

Who is Sang Jiu (another god?)? And is Ming Ye a good god or a bad god (since it seemed his river dragon self was still torn between becoming good or bad--was a bit confused on why, and how the four characters could make a difference through their role-playing?)? Why was he a demon river dragon?

What does it mean that some are demons vs. immortals? The immortals seem to be... well, immortal, but why? How did they become immortal? And not all demons seem wholly bad... what is the evil bone and is it an actual bone that needs to be removed from TTJ 2.0's body?

Is there any "real" individuality or personhood to TTJ apart from the evil bone which is like the ADG's remnant keeping him evil (kind of like an egg that will hatch in him and take him over if he dies?). Like, is there a normal guy in there trying to be/do good fighting against the evil bone trying to turn him evil (and is that the ADG he's talking to whenever he's about to die, the talking mask guy?). This reminds me a bit of the horcrux of Voldemort left in different objects to keep him going even after he's "destroyed"?

Thank you again, Micha! Feel free to take your time in responding, I asked a lot of questions...

Interesting! And thanks for responding, I love dialoguing about this stuff.

How close would you say much of the xianxia is to original folk tales and mythology? Cause to me, if the stories are quite different in their drama form from their original form, why must the ending be kept if other things are already changed extensively? Some of this stuff (not necessarily Cdramas but just entertainment in general) is not profound or deep enough to warrant justifying a "sad ending" for the sake of the story or characters; it's sometimes just fluffy entertainment that's couched in dramatic, seemingly poignant filming/framing that takes itself way too seriously and acts like it's saying something deep when it's not. That's when the sad endings feel super frustrating to me, since I feel like I wasted my time.

And I see what you mean by "Disney endings," but I wonder if it's not that simple, and not just escapist wishful thinking?

I also wonder if it's a reflection of cultural pessimism/optimism (Japanese dramas seem to have a lot of sad endings as well, for instance). Is it a cultural thing to be ingrained to believe good will win out and people who fight for/champion the good will get to experience a satisfying end? On another note, they teased the ML's death in NIF from the get-go, so I felt appropriately prepared for that ending, but for a romance there doesn't seem to be a "happy ending" outside the leads ending up together. And not doing so when one can seems to reflect pessimism in one's storytelling? 🤷‍♀️ I haven't seen many costume Cdramas yet so I don't really have a clear picture of what the "sad" or "happy" endings look like, and maybe after seeing more I'll have a better idea of what that means or looks like. The two costume dramas I've seen outside NIF seasons 1 and 2 had "happy endings" (though one did have a weird addendum that was happy that offset a very weirdly/randomly sad last episode).

It just seems that to me there are roughly two different types of storytelling in visual media. Some is geared more towards teaching or instructing or convicting (this also tends to be the less entertaining entertainment), while some is meant to entertain and maybe throw in some profundity while they're at it if it fits well with the stuff that's needed to entertain. Dramas seems to go in the second category (to me).

Aaaanyway... just some musings. I could be completely off my rocker about this, haha. 😅

I was reading a few others synopses/reviews after starting the dream part because I was so confused and realized that it's even more complicated than I could imagine with so many layers. 😵‍💫 Haha, so much going on! Which versions of the characters are the "real" or "main" characters, since we're getting so many versions of them? 😅

Thank you for sharing! Who is the ancient demon god again? I got to the dream sequence and my brain is spinning. I feel like I'm watching Inception now. 😅

I've always figured it's because those types of people maybe tend to watch Kdramas to see the MLs rather than the FLs, and so will also be overly critical of their own sex. I also just think that a large number of Kdrama FLs are written poorly. I never get the hate and trash-talking surrounding ACTORS, though. It usually has to do with bad writing, so why blame the actress? There are obviously exceptions to this, and there ARE bad actresses (but honestly, the male actors get much more of a pass, especially if they're idols, they sometimes just look pretty and stare and people will love them), but I think the entertainment industry is still trying to figure out how to write female characters.

It's certainly a painful watch, in some places more than others, haha, but I can see why it was popular at the time. :) I still prefer BOFs to this (despite it being quite toxic at times), but both have some elements that have NOT aged well. 😅 This one also has a distinct makjang flavor to it, which, as a genre, leans more heavily into the cliches and super big ups and downs in the plot and for the characters from what I've seen. 😏

Honestly, I think this could be one of those dramas that made many of these cliches more mainstream. It was hugely popular when it aired, and you're right this has so many big actors, but I think most of them weren't super big yet, so they weren't all popular or well-known when cast (hence the large, star-studded cast list). I think this drama was responsible for launching forward some of their careers.

😅👍 (I hope it ends well because I love Zhao Lusi; she's an amazing actress!).

What are your theories on why costume Chinese dramas largely have sad or open endings? First of all, they're almost all fantasy of one sort or another, so having a "realistic" ending for the "stakes involved" is complete garbage, and never held water for me as a reason. These stories have nothing to do with realism, and therefore they don't need to follow the rules of endings that reflect "realism." Why don't the storytellers realize that people who want to watch fantasy usually want fantastical endings? And there are zero rules for these worlds that can't be easily explained away by another made-up rule, so it makes no sense why so many end this way when most watchers don't want sad endings. If the makers do know this and purposely don't deliver in order to manipulate watchers, than I have issues with that. It sounds like a money grab (though I guess it's my fault for assuming the entertainment industry is into storytelling for any other reason besides money, like it would be a mistake to assume a politician could be a good person with good intentions 😑).

I am trying Till The End Of The Moon and at Episode 12, and I feel like I'm watching some version of Inception in fantasy xianxia world and also might have to face a sad ending, too. It's already been quite painful to watch at some points (and I feel like the storytellers want me to feel bad for the ML but I can't because he's a terrible person so far; I'm not interested in MLs who are good to the FL (or beautiful) but bad people still, nope, not for me), and I just don't know if a sad ending (even an open ending), will make the series worth it. Or maybe xianxia is just too much for me. 🤷‍♀️ I definitely think I enjoy the more pseudo-historical Cdramas better so far. They're more grounded.

That said, I will not try TSOPG until I know it's not a sad or open ending, and until it's over.

Cool, so... that hopefully means he improves (?). 😅 I'm a big fan of growth arcs so if there are changes ahead (even if they're slow in coming), I'm 100% seated. I just needed a gentle nudge to keep going. 😅

I mean, I assumed he grows on you, hence why so many people like this, but I don't like when a character grows on you but not because they actually become good but because excuses are made for their behavior and they're framed by the storytellers as "likable" and "pitiable."

And I hate that, because then I feel manipulated into liking a character I shouldn't like.

I'm on Episode 10. Sometimes I feel super bad for the ML, and sometimes he's completely awful and I just have no sympathy for him and think he totally gets what he deserves (so far, love the FL, though; I love that she keeps realizing she can't punish a person for something they haven't done yet, though, to be fair, the MLs already not squeaky clean, even if he's not as bad as his character in Episode 1, he's still done some shady things). Does he improve/get more likable?

You go! I love not having Facebook, Instagram or TikTok. :) Enjoy unfettered freedom. ☺️

A teensy part of me actually wanted Xiao Se as emperor. He would have made such a good ruler/leader, and I wasn't ever super impressed with Prince Bai. He wasn't awful, but he wasn't my favorite either. He certainly grew on me, and I DID enjoy the twist at the end with the scrolls. It was a sweet brother moment. It could have been even cooler if the brothers had had more of a bond and connection, though.

This was lots of fun. I'm new to wuxia, so I'm still finding my feet, but I enjoyed the camaraderie and brotherhood, alliances and self-sacrificing. It reminded me a lot of the chivalric romances from the late medieval/renaissance period + magic. I'm struck by the optimism of this world, the belief that with time cultivating and practicing, they can always get better. No one is ever seated safely at the top of the Top-Ranked List...

(Did LOTR filmmakers watch wuxia? The elves' hair and style from it feels so much like the male characters' hair and style in these dramas!).

At times it felt a bit meandering, and sometimes I'd have to think a bit while watching to figure out how the scene fit into the larger story, and it wasn't always obvious. 😂

The characters were a lot of fun, and I loved watching each character (especially Xiao Se) come into their own. There were some great scenes with the main core group of friends, and they were hands down always my favorite.

A few gripes:

1) Not enough Wuxin (also, that guy does NOT look 17, sorry). The poster, cast list and opening episodes teased him as a main role, and Xiao Se's "best friend," but he really wasn't in it much, nor was he with the friends nearly as much as I would have liked. I did love how they tied together moments in the opening episodes to moments in the final. That was a nice touch!

2) The martial arts technique exposition every time a new character showed up with some skills. I know it was for our (the audience's) benefit, and there were a lot of really fun fight scenes, but it started to get old. Xiao Se spent most of his limited dialogue on exposition about martial arts technique (is this a wuxia thing, or a BoY thing?). It was like getting introduced to new super heroes with new powers constantly, and it was just a lot to take in, and so many charscters and skills to keep track of. So much telling and I would have liked more showing. (Why were there so many Sword Deities? 😂).

3) Xiao Se spent much of the drama being grumpy; I would have liked to see the gradual change a bit more in the small, tedious moments (there was definitely a progression of growth for him, don't get me wrong, but I felt like he pulled out his gem-ness so rarely that it was disappointing since it came out only for the big, grand gestures rather than for smaller, more insignificant ones). I also would have loved to see the wispies nixed... 🫣

4) I don't know why they bothered with the romance. There really was no chemistry between either of the main couples. 😬 If they kept them all friends nothing about the story would have changed.

Overall, though, a great watch!! I enjoyed it very much, gripes aside.

If I remember correctly, the characters get more likeable after that point.