Platinum Fox

Now my question is why would you rather date a woman, then a guy (gay or straight) who has the personality of CC? Ask yourself, if WSW and CC's relationship were a guy and a girl. How would you respond?

Also, the drama pokes fun at WSW's first time by making him walk funny afterwards. It is because CC forces him to be on the bottom as CC is always on the top. WSW even goes on to say that he doesn't want to have sex anymore as it isn't pleasant for him, and CC has a fierce libido. In the drama, it said nothing about WSW wanting CC to push harder. So my interpretation comes from the drama not the novel.

And, no I haven't forgotten that WSW controls the purse strings, but that is because he is good at making and saving money. CC refuses to work for his dad because he doesn't want to go into business with is dad. WSW does all the business work until his mom dies and then CC takes over and gets in trouble with the law because of it. It shows that he is not cut out to be a business person. So in a sense in this regard CC is the "woman" of the relationship, as it is the man who makes the money. But this is not the same as being equal in the bedroom.

Sorry, I just don't see WSW and CC's relationship lasting. I am glad that you do.

Thank you for the discussion.

If your interpretation is that WSW and CC are a loving couple, that's okay. I am just offering a different point of view and asking you to put yourself in WSW's shoes.

Viki is the original platform, but you will have to pay for plus instead of just standard or free. However, it has been picked up by KisskH.

You have just made my point. WSW looks and acts feminine, so in Chinese culture he would be what women should be submissive to their husbands. Throughout the entire drama, WSW is submissive to CC. However, he complains about this numerous times throughout the drama. In the end, there is still clearly an imbalance in their relationship which will effect it in the future if it is not rectified. To help you understand this compare the two couples.

Remember that Guo and JXS were both gay at the beginning of the drama. Guo, being the dominate one, never forces JXS into the submissive role as he learns that JXS was hurt badly in a previous relationship. Even CC notices how differently Guo treats JXS. In the end, Guo buys JXS a building to expand his clinic. He makes JXS feel good about himself and his goals. Guo treats him as an equal partner in all aspects of their life.

On the other hand, WSW is a straight male and CC is a gay guy. WSW is a blank slate when it comes to bl relationships. He could be either a dominate or a submissive. However, in order to win CC's heart and exact his revenge, he is forced to be a submissive because CC is the dominate. He plays the role of submissive until he falls in love with CC. Then, every time the two "make love" and I say that in quotation marks as it is not love if it is forced, CC is on top. After the first time, it is clear that CC was really rough because WSW is sore from the experience. It is joked about in the drama, but it actually makes WSW realize that the relationship is imbalanced. When CC is in jail, it is the first time that WSW has to take control and does so with ease as he gives up his family's home to save CC from jail. While in jail, CC breaks up with him because he can't control the situation, nor WSW. After he gets out of jail, CC can only hope that WSW will want him after he gets out of prison. It is why CC buys back the house and tree. It is a present to ask for forgiveness and hope that it will make WSW want him. This is sad because WSW has already let the selling of the house go. He was ready to build a relationship with CC in their new home. Sorry, I just don't see this as a balanced relationship and further down the road, most likely WSW is going to see the light and want out.

Also, I disagree with you. WSW had a purpose, to win back the heart of his girl and in the end win the heart of CC, just as CC wanted to win WSW's love. My question is, is that love worth it?

As your profile says you are a woman, let me ask you one question, would you rather be with Guo or CC? Whichever one you choose says a great deal about you and your perspective of what love is. jmo

Thank you again for your insight and discussion. Happy drama watching.

Here is the definition of grooming straight from the dictionary:

1. the practice of brushing and cleaning the coat of a horse, dog, or other animal.
"regular grooming is essential to the well-being of your dog"

the practice by an animal of cleaning its own or another animal's fur or skin.
"mutual grooming expresses the friendly relationship between cats"
the practice of keeping a neat and tidy appearance.
"she pays great attention to grooming and clothes"

2. the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity.
"Allen was expected to need lot of grooming before he was ready to take over"

3. the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.

My definition of grooming relates to the second one. The fact that by the end of the drama the nephew is calling WSW "aunt" instead of "uncle" says that WSW is on the bottom or in the submissive role. I do understand what top and bottom means when it comes to sexual intercourse. I am also beginning to understand that it plays a big role in bl dramas. However, it can also be used in controlling a relationship (dominate or submissive). CC allows WSW to control the purse strings and other aspects of their relationship. However, when it comes to a sexual relationship, CC is always on top. WSW has complained about this numerous times during the drama. However, in the end, by the time everything is said and done, WSW is the submissive in the relationship and was groomed to be so.

Thank you for the discussion. Happy drama watching.

Even though some episodes are missing, I still felt the drama had completed itself as our main leads were very happy!

You clearly have a set definition of grooming when it comes to love and romance and that is okay. For me, grooming someone is just the act of teaching someone with a specific end goal in mind. It doesn't matter the ages of the two people. What matters is the context of the teaching and to what purpose as to whether grooming is positive or negative.

When WSW first decides to get revenge, he is a straight male wanting to get his girl back. He has no clue how to seduce a boy and must be taught (groomed) with the end goal being to seduce CC. CC is a dominate or top guy. In order to win CC's heart, WSW must become a submissive. To help him along, WSW becomes friends with a submissive who grooms him into becoming another submissive. Throughout half the drama WSW is unwilling to be the submissive. It is what gives us the comedy.

As WSW falls in love with CC, he realizes how dominating and controlling CC really is, especially when it comes to love making. Maybe in the novel WSW is on the top sometimes, but he is never on top in the drama, only CC is. We do see WSW giving CC a back massage, but again this is entirely for CC's pleasure, not for WSW's. Once or twice we see WSW initiating the love making with kissing, but it is always interrupted by a call from his love rival to CC or something else. It is very telling that CC's nephew calls WSW aunt instead of uncle. It is because WSW plays the feminine role in the relationship or the woman. Sooner or later that relationship is going to fall apart if CC doesn't change his attitude about always being on top and in control. As remember, Wang Shuo and CC had been together for 3 years and WS was a full submissive from the start. What makes the relationship between WSW and CC any different, especially if CC never allows WSW top position? jmo

Side note: You say that WSW sells his family's home because CC doesn't have any money and CC's family isn't helping him, where does he get the money for the home and the tree?

I'm watching it on Viki. It only has 15 episodes, but I felt within those 15 episodes they manage to have a sex scene, boy-on-boy kissing, and show the mutual respect that each boy has for the other. From the ending pictures, you could tell the drama was going to test their love by bringing back Lou Yin's girlfriend from overseas and how their relationship would hold up in the real world. They did end it in kind of a fairy tale way, but it is a start, right.

Don't worry about your English skills. I understood what you were trying to say.

Be prepared for a gut wrenching ending in A Frozen Flower. Just a heads up!

Thanks, I will give each of these a try.

I understand. I totally agree with you about WSW and CC. it is a very toxic relationship. If it were a straight relationship, viewers would be declaring that the girl should get out of the relationship and quickly.

You said you have only watched to episode 10 or half the drama. Keep going as I would love your take on the ending.

I just finished Addicted and felt they just needed one more episode to wrap up several relationships, but otherwise it pretty much felt like the end at 15. jmo

Hey, have you watched the Korean movie, A Frozen Flower? I would love your take on it. It has BL elements in it. But prepared it is a sad ending.

I would love more recommendations as I haven't really seen any strong well written and acted BL productions. Thank you.

Thank you so much for the explanation. I am new to BL dramas and am still learning about how relationships work in them and their tropes. I understand the whole top and bottom (dominate and submissive) aspect of them. However, for me, that doesn't seem like an equal relationship, especially for someone like WSW who was new to bl love. CC was a dominate or top which makes WSW have to be a submissive or bottom. WSW wanted to be on top sometimes and CC wouldn't let him. This is not an equal relationship. Wang Shuo was the perfect lover for CC as WS was a submissive through and through. WSW wants to be both top and bottom which is an equal.

Also, I know what grooming means and depending on the situation it can be positive or negative, especially when it comes to love. Because WSW has no clue how bl relationships work he needs to be taught and he is taught by a submissive, because that is what will attract CC. However, once WSW has fallen for CC, he realizes that it is an unequal relationship, but CC tries to groom him into the perfect lover by giving WSW everything that he wants. This is not an equal relationship and it is not love. It is like a man who keeps giving a girl presents, the bigger the better, to get her to stay with him. In the end, when CC goes to prison he breaks up WSW because he is no longer in control of the relationship. WSW becomes the top person and happily sells off his family home for CC. CC can't stand this because it means that he is now the bottom and dependent upon WSW. CC has lost the top position.

When CC gets out of prison, the first thing he does is buy back the family house and gets the tree back. This looks like a gesture of love, but in reality it is to take back the dominate position. Sooner or later WSW will want more power in the relationship and CC, always wanting to be on top, won't yield. It is why CC and WS were such a good match as WS was a submissive through and through. He never challenged CC for top position, and notice that relationship didn't work out as it was clearly an unequal relationship. WSW challenges CC for top position which he should.

The second couple are more equal in their relationship. Guo may be a calm top, but he is also willing to be the bottom as well and builds JXS up to also be the top instead of always being a submissive.

In a healthy relationship there always must be some give and take. CC does give, but it is only because he wants something in return, to be on top. That kind of relationship will not last.

Thank you again for the explanation and discussion. Happy drama watching.

Thank you so much for the recommendation. I am still new to BL dramas and all of their tropes. I will check out Stay with Me, and I understand about sad endings. There are many dramas that have stuck with me because of the ending.

Thank you for the discussion.

I noticed you watched Addicted which is by the same author. What did you think of it? I have three more episodes.

Not sure what definition of friends with benefits you are using. Are you saying that the two boys are friends as well as equal lovers or are you saying they are friends and whenever CC wants sex, they have sex?

For me, CC and WSW are not a real couple as CC is too dominating and controlling. You know that WSW wants the relationship to be different, but it never is. No matter what CC does for him or how romantic the gesture, until CC allows WSW equal status of being on top, the two will never be a couple. For me, because WSW was straight at the beginning, this "love" story is basically CC grooming WSW to be his submissive play thing and he does whatever is needed to keep WSW with him. jmo

I agree. CC and WSW's relationship will never be at an equal level as CC is too dominating and controlling. Unlike the second couple who were very equal.

I had the same reaction about the first couple. For me, their relationship felt more like a friends with benefits type of deal. Now, the second couple's love story was so beautiful. They felt like a real couple. I loved the drama though.

Yes, why did Shao Shang choose Lou Yao over LBY at the beginning? LLtG uses the three parts of persuasion (ethos, pathos, logos) with the characters. LY represents pathos (doing something based on emotions). At the time, Shao Shang was 15 and LY was 18. They are closer in age. Both have a great deal in common and both have dreams of getting out of their homes as both are oppressed by their families. The two are on the same page when it comes to their definition of love. The problem is LY doesn't challenge SS to be different. As you said, he just follows her around. Everything in their relationship is based on feelings. Shao Shang even says, "I do what feels right. This is right." Yet, LY was good for her and her for him. She made him feel confident. He made her feel safe and secure with food. Remember she has an issue with food. This is the first time in Shao Shang's life that she has cared about someone other than herself. Their relationship proves that she can love someone. You may not have felt it, but it was there. The drama asks what is love and how do you show it? Just because there was no physical demonstration of love doesn't mean it wasn't there.

At the beginning of the drama, how do SS and LBY meet? Shao Shang rats on her great uncle out of revenge on her grandmother who has made her life miserable. She is law and order. At the same time, LBY seeks justice for his family. He represents ethos (law and order). Why should SS have to love LBY because he saves her multiple times? As a general, it is his job to keep the country (people) safe from rebels and bandits. The drama asks is there really love at first sight? LBY concentrated so much on his revenge that he completely shut Shao Shang out of his personal life. He kept the biggest secret of his life until the day he killed the guilty party (a day before they were to get married). Even though Shao Shang guessed the secret, he still hid it from her. They were not even on the same page of what love means. It's why she left him. Why should she love someone who hides things from her after he has made such a big deal about husbands and wives being of one mind?

Yuan, being a scholar, tried to argue with logic. He represents logos. Love is not logical, so he will never win her heart. You can't help who you fall in love with.

This is just a start of the many wonderful things about this drama.

I will write some more tomorrow on The Double, but this will get you started. You really need to watch LLtG again through a different lens as you are missing out on an exemplary drama. Joy of Life is an excellent drama as well.

I love your recommendations and have watched many of them, but none of them compare to LLtG. The impact that LLtG has had on the storytelling of dramas over the past three years is enormous. Many dramas have imitated it and even interpreted its meaning (The Glory and The Double). The story uses the three parts of persuasion to drive its messages on discipline, revenge, love, favoritism, nepotism, filial piety, and youth marriage. The film work and direction is top notch with its meaningful camera shots to enhance the story, in addition to the use of a mirror as its story structure and other literary elements to convey meaning.

Joy of Life has its strong points as well. The film work is amazing as well. The satirical aspects of the drama work really well with the social messages it is trying to convey on love, power, and enjoyment of life. Its creative use of sci-fi in a historical setting is top notch.

Both are equally great dramas. It just depends on what you are looking for in a drama.

Happy drama watching.

What do mean no wedding scene? The wedding scene was in the first part when LBY takes Shao Shang away from Yuan when they are reenacting what happened between the aunt and the scholar. But this is no ordinary couple, so an ordinary wedding would go against everything Shao Shang and LBY worked for. The wedding scene starts at 32 minutes in in the last episode. The two are out under the stars in a military camp acknowledging HBY's family and the empress. Then, they proceed to say their vows. Both are dressed similarly to when they first met. The wedding is just for them, not for everyone else. I thought it was a beautiful wedding. jmo