[Discussion] Golden Empire

NinaJade82 wrote: Hahahahaha... go ahead and trash my lady while Im down!! :p
I agree Seo Joo was a snob and she also was kind of naive in her thinking that she could get loyalty out of certain people. However, like Tae Joo was NO ANGEL, Seo Joo in my eyes is allowed to have flaws. I love her.

I have to say that what made me realized that Tae Joo was not in love with Sul Hee was that while Sul Hee was away in prison, Tae Joo forgot about revenge, forgot about greed. He was living stale, true, but he had forgotten about the things that aren't necessarily good in his life. Like revenge and greed, those two things combined are like a magnet for destruction.
When he goes to his father's memorial with Seo Yoo I see in Tae Joo a potential of becoming a good man like he initially was (because my chingu I never said he was born evil lol) The Tae Joo that goes to see his dad at the building, and the one that even tries to safe him is the good man. The Tae Joo that came to Sul Hee for money is the start of the bad Tae Joo.
I saw Sul Hee as someone who reminded Tae Joo that he didnt have time to play good guy anymore, that he needed to focus in what he wanted and what he wanted was to be the devil to the Choi.
Do they deserve a devil? Yes, but that doesn't mean I agree that would make Tae Joo the hero. Not as long as he uses the same tools as the Choi family.

Now that I look back, Im really glad he did what he did at the end. Because like my chingu here says, he redeemed himself and not only that, he STOPPED himself from being that guy anymore. He didn't think living would allow him to do that, so he died. Beautiful.

Well, I've touched upon TJ's dance with good and bad in the previous post.
When TJ met Seul Hee it was the start of him grabbing a hold of his own fate. He didn't have a choice. Either he did it or remained the dregs of society like his father did. Moreover, he needed the money to save his dad. Remember he tried all legitimate means first (remember that man who told him to pray to the Almighty 'He will save your father' ... #smh). People who he thought he could depend on turned their backs on him in his hour of need. So he did what he had to do to save his dad.

A mother would have done the same for her child too. Would that automatically make her bad? Life is not so easy so that we can live by virtues and principles all the time. Sometimes we're forced to get our hands dirty even though that's not what we want to do.

There's a saying in Jamaica, where my mom is from: If you want good, your nose has run. Which basically meets if you want something you have to fight for it. And a lot of time the fight ain't pretty.

Like so many poor kids in ghettos worldwide, Tæ-joo didn't have anyone to give him a break. So he went out there and created one for himself with Seul Hee's help.

Dare I say, chingu, that you're perhaps looking at this a tad too black and white. There's so much nuance, so much shades of grey that can not be overlooked.

As for any romantic possibilities, I do think he developed feelings for Seo Yoon ... if only for the mere fact that you can't live in such close proximity to someone AND not feel anything toward them. Doesn't necessarily have to be love, per se (although I think there's a strong likelihood there was on both sides). But friendship, loyalty, support ... all of which TJ & SY clearly felt for each other even though we didn't get to see it on full display. I think the undercurrents of these emotions were there. TJ looked out for SY when he lived in that house & she had his back when the dragons went after him.

There's also a scene in which SY explains her concept of love to her brother. I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was something along the lines of 'love chooses you even if you don't choose it' ... then they cut to a picture of TJ as if to imply she's talking about love she developed for him.

Having said that I can also accept Coffee's interpretation of his feelings where Seul Hee is concerned as another viable possibility. It's not impossible that he could grow to love her at all, given that they've been through so much together. And a lot of time you end up loving those who love you ... even though your heart didn't initiate these feelings first.

NinaJade82 wrote: <-- just paying some respect.

I posted in my MDL page while the drama was airing this: When I first heard of this drama and when I started watching it I would have wanted another actor as the lead because Go Soo was no on my list of great actors. However, when some time passed (very little time) I had to bite my tongue; Go Soo played Tae Joo like a BOSS. He earned every right to be not only deserving of the character, but the ONLY ONE deserving of the character. I don't think I wanted anyone else to play Tae Joo at that point.

Couldn't have put it better myself. He is a BOSS and I hope he'll continue to pick such meaty, brilliant roles.
Honestly for a long time I did just like this guy for his looks. When I started GE I have to admit that I only paid attention to him for his looks. I didn't really take his character seriously. But man, as the series progressed I forgot all about looks and got totally swept away in his character and the journey. He totally killed it!

Mssankacoffee wrote: PrettyC:"Though I think if a strong sense of loyalty and obligation weren't mixed up in there ... if he could choose without betraying anyone ... I think he'd've chosen Seo Yoon. TJ being ambitious as he is, SY is more his type. "

You know when I first started watching this series I wanted so much for TJ and SY to hook up; however as it progressed there was no development of 'romance' between the two, and what I first thought was sexual tension between them, I saw later as merely genuine dislike. There was no secret longing glances, or romantic reflexions, or lingering touches, secret kind acts, retreating from tough positions to give way out of love, nothing to even indicate there is a 'hidden' love or longing between these two. I therefore accepted that it was not intended for there to be any kind of love relationship and I was really just 'reaching' as they say. A romantic interest can exist between couples and remain dormant but we will get a clear indication that it exists from may cues some of which I have listed; for me that did not occur with TJ and SY. What was interesting to me was, there were many instances where the writers could have subtly shown attraction but they chose not to do so, and I believe that was because it was not intended. Romantics like me love when romance blossoms between antagonists especially attractive ones; it's a natural fit and therein is the trap for us as viewers. I think that even if Seul Hee was not in this drama, TJ would not have loved SY because the drama was meant to focus on the dynamics of the duel between the Chois and TJ, and in that the writer excelled.

Coffee, just cutting and pasting in case you missed this from my post above:

As for any romantic possibilities, I do think he developed feelings for Seo Yoon ... if only for the mere fact that you can't live in such close proximity to someone AND not feel anything toward them. Doesn't necessarily have to be love, per se (although I think there's a strong likelihood there was on both sides). But friendship, loyalty, support ... all of which TJ & SY clearly felt for each other even though we didn't get to see it on full display. I think the undercurrents of these emotions were there. TJ looked out for SY when he lived in that house & she had his back when the dragons went after him.

There's also a scene in which SY explains her concept of love to her brother. I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was something along the lines of 'love chooses you even if you don't choose it' ... then they cut to a picture of TJ as if to imply she's talking about love she developed for him.

Having said that I can also accept Coffee's interpretation of his feelings where Seul Hee is concerned as another viable possibility. It's not impossible that he could grow to love her at all, given that they've been through so much together. And a lot of time you end up loving those who love you ... even though your heart didn't initiate these feelings first.

soumatra2 wrote: TJ is one of my hero, he wanted to succeed, and rebuilt an empire that been built with blood, in the end he was obliged to bath in the some blood
if you want to succeed you must be a monster, that have no conscience other that money and positive turnover

golden empire is more realistic that you think, and more philosophic

This is the same way I see the story of this drama. That Tae Joo in order to be on top of the Empire like he wanted had to become the very same people he hated most. He pulled the trigger just like they did.

Yes it is one of the best dramas I have ever watched. By far, the best written.

The Heirs (SBS) 21.78% (40,550 votes)

where you can find this number of dumbs ?

Tæ-joo & his fascination with Hitler

Pfft, you took TJ and his hyperbole about being Hitler way too seriously. TJ was nothing like Hitler. Not even close so that isn’t even worth us arguing about, in my opinion -- though I did comment in detail about this earlier.

He had the business acumen and the sheer willpower to succeed at anything he wanted to do, but he lacked the connections and the life experience to make the best choices. He lost sight of his own good intentions & allowed his emotions - where the Chois are concerned - to overwhelm his good sense. It was just inconceivable to him to lose to them, and all along he thought he was winning, only to realize that he was facing possible defeat and it literally drove him insane.

Aside from authorizing actions that cost a life & hurt others, I agree with Soumatra2 above who said TJ is a reflection of reality far more so than we know. He is a true depiction of most people in the world. Most people want more than what they have. This isn’t always a ‘bad’ form of greed. If you grow up poor, you wish you had a little more. If you’re disabled, you wish you were able-bodied. If you live in a small one bedroom house, you aspire to a bigger abode with more space and so on and so on.

The difference between TJ and most people, though, is that he was willing to work his ass off for what he wanted and therein lies the beauty of the character. He was willing to get down to the nitty gritty, get his hands dirty because more times than not that’s what it takes to acquire any form of wealth. Most people are not willing to put in the work. They just sit around and complain about their circumstances, but do nothing to try and change it. Sometimes this also includes me, that's why after I completed this show I had a tremendous burst of energy to work even harder to accomplish my professional goals.

But like I have said many times before I don’t condone his hand in the demolition. In a similar situation I sure hope I wouldn’t press the trigger. Most people probably wouldn’t press the trigger. TJ crossed that line which kind of turned him into a villain in those last few moments, but not one without the possibility of redemption.

This thing with the Congressman

You really can’t argue ‘intent’ in a court of law. At least not up to the point where he thought his own life was in danger.

Yes, prior to the incident he picked up the knife, maybe he even went at the Congressman in the heat of the moment but he did NOT kill him then, did he? He only killed him when the Congressman threatened his life which was the appropriate thing to do under those circumstances.

We can speculate as much as we want as to his intentions toward the congressman on his way to the mansion. In the context of story leading up to that point, my interpretation of his behaviour was that he was in a rage at being betrayed yet again by people he thought he could trust, especially Seul Hee. She knew TJ would NEVER want her to do such a thing & yet she went ahead and did it anyway. The Congressman screwed him over, just when he’s under severe pressure from the Chois, causing him to lose almost everything.

He was MAD and maybe he did have murderous thoughts, but the fact remains that he was walking away when the Congressman swung at him with a deadly weapon that could have caused him great bodily harm or even death. That is a FACT. So even though the writers implied that it might be murder because of the blood which remained on his hand I find it interesting that they allowed the incident to occur in such a grey area where it can’t totally be construed as murder given that his life was in imminent danger. They could have just let him murder him without much fanfare. He could have found some way to get Seul Hee out of the room, murder the Congressman & then claim self-defense. But that didn't happen.

I dismissed the killing for what I believe it was, self-defense. While I watched I didn’t understand the need for anyone to go to prison. If the police investigated and ruled it self-defense, then all charges should be dropped and the defendant released. But based on this and other dramas I’ve seen it doesn’t look like self-defense is a viable defense in the Korean justice system. Even if it IS self-defense it looks like you’re still expected to serve some time for the taking of a human life, which amounts to a charge of manslaughter as far as I see it. I don’t know if this is how it goes down in reality or if it’s done in dramas merely for dramatic effect.

Seul Hee in prison

As for him sending Seul Hee to jail, you don’t need to convince me further. I already conceded that it was a shitty move. Nevertheless, we also both know Seul Hee would have done it of her own accord anyway. And even if she didn’t want to she still could have backed out, either right then and there or when they got to the station. Even later on when TJ was arrested he faced Seul Hee in the interrogation room fully expecting her to sing. But AGAIN she chose not to because Seul Hee loved Tæ-joo and would never sell him out like that. So there you have it again … people can not be absolved of their personal responsibility. Just like the people who got hurt in the demolition. It was horrible and WRONG of TJ to authorize it, no doubt about that … but at the same time would you stay in a building you know is about to collapse?

Seo Yoon

As for this business with him SY, come on, chingu! Until you get to know a person one and one (& probably not even then) NOBODY would think highly of the people who had a hand in the killing of their loved one! It is VERY unlikely! So why does that make TJ a cad and snob? :)

I think his reaction to her was normal and very human.

Closing arguments

I get your interpretation of the morale of the story. I would even go as far as to say your version is what the writers probably wanted to us believe at the end as well. Where I’m concerned they succeeded in reminding me of the corrupting nature of money & power (the Chois). They succeeded in reminding me that vengeance belongs only to Jesus (if he exists) because it will consume us humans to the point of madness (Tæ-joo). They did not succeed in convincing me that Tæ-joo was this inherently bad guy with only a little good in him. Not even at the end after he had pulled the trigger & essentially became what he hated it. I saw him as tragic hero who made of a lot of bad choices, but wasn’t given the chance to make amends.

Given the fact that Tæ-joo, also by your own admission, was NOT like the worst of the Choi clan, this made me believe he could change for the better and learn from his mistakes. Yes, by the end of drama he had teetered off onto the dark side, but he recognized it.

He chose to kill himself like Hitler did, but I think that’s where the similarities to Hitler ended. He recognized himself he was no Hitler. Hitler had no qualms about wiping out over a million people. Tæ-joo recognized he couldn’t pull the trigger and have the blood of innocent people on his hands & live with a clear conscience. Where the story is concerned it’s more than a guy like Min-jæ & probably even the late Chairman recognized, yet they were allowed to live until one of them died from natural causes.

TJ could have been redeemed. TJ WAS, in the context of the story we were shown, very redeemable. So to use him as the poster child of evil incarnate with a little good in him was a misfire, in my opinion, because the morale of the story to me would then be that human beings can’t make mistakes. Once you make a mistake you automatically deserve to go to hell. I can’t live with that.

I was disappointed with TJ when he pulled the trigger. I wanted to kill him when he did that. I was like ‘No, no, no, back out, back out! Do NOT do it!’. But he did it and my heart sank. I did NOT want him to do that. And while I’m not absolving him of responsibility, I continue to maintain that he wouldn’t have done it if he was dealing with anyone else but the Chois. He simply could NOT tolerate losing to those people.

No matter how you look at it you can not tell me the guy who had that major meltdown in his office in those last episodes was in his right mind. The guy who willingly put EVERYTHING he owned on the line just to bring these people down. This was not the rational behaviour of the man the story told us TJ was. A shrew businessman, a guy who hates being poor.

He was not in his right mind. He totally lost it!

I rest my case here, chingu. I hear your position on TJ, and while we'll probably never agree on his true nature, I understand where you’re coming from.

I hate his crime, but I could never hate him (I know you don’t either). He made a dreadful mistake that under the right circumstances any human can make. So I forgave him. In the ending that I’ve rewritten in my head, he loses everything - his business, his family, all his business associates, whatever friends he had, even Seul Hee finally turned her back on him and he goes to prison where he’s able to reflect on his misdeeds for a very long time. Several years later he’s released, older and significantly wiser. He has nothing to his name, only the clothes on his back. He has no one to turn to since his family has disowned him. He goes back to Chillengdong and rents a rat infested room with no heating. He survives on air, coffee and ramen. We certainly see that he now understands the corrupting nature of money & that you constantly have to check yourself against its negative influence. Finally we see him selling fruits in the market, he’s still as charismatic & driven as ever so he soon develops a loyal customer base. The credits roll with the suggestion that he’ll somehow turn his fruit selling business (or some other business) into his very own golden empire.

In my heart, that’s the ending Tæ-joo deserves.

GAH! Oori chingus! You are making me want to watch this drama now. I can't quit glancing at y'all discussing/analyzing it. I've been lucky that I've avoided spoilers by hard-core skimming. :p

Clearly this is a gold mine for we who like to analyze. I guess I better finish my drama challenge lickety-split so that I can join in the fun. *sigh*