3 hours agoHeadInTheClouds:
AH :
Given all the things that he does to facilitate TSJ and XY being together, it would be pretty messed up if XL thought that TSJ was bad for XY.
There's a spectrum between thinking that Jing is bad for Xiao Yao and approval of Jing.
I can picture a spectrum running from "strong approval" to "the barest minimum of approval" to "complete neutrality" to "the barest minimum of disapproval" to "strong disapproval".
I think I saw a post once that referred to XL as the biggest YaoJing shipper? I don't share that opinion. I don't think XL thought TSJ was the greatest person ever and enthusiastically approved of him as an ideal partner for XY. So cross out the "strong approval" end of the spectrum for me.
I also don't think XL would have taken the steps that he took if TSJ was someone he disapproved of as a partner for XY (e.g., because he thought TSJ would be bad for her). So cross out the whole disapproval side of the spectrum for me.
That leaves "the barest minimum of approval" and "complete neutrality". I don't think there's a whole lot of room between those two positions, and I feel like XL could have occupied either position. I'm inclined to think he would've been in the "barest minimum of approval" position simply because it's pretty bleak if he put in so much effort to help XY and TSJ be together and he didn't even have that level of approval for TSJ as a partner to XY. But that's just me.
AH :
IMO, adding that line for XL in the drama makes drama!XL look pettier and more petulant than novel!XL
They've already made changes to dramaXL by allowing him to be more expressive. I don't see this as petty so much as a moment of frustration.
This complaint of mine is definitely rooted in my very subjective personal preference for more stoic characters whose emotions are mostly or entirely shown in quiet, subtle ways.
I know lots of people love that TJC chose to play XL more expressively, and that the drama has added more lines and scenes where XL's emotions are externalized in less subtle ways. I acknowledge that my preferences are in the minority here. ^^
And frankly, Jing's various failures should be acknowledged and called out more. CX is the only one who did, unfortunately, he gets dismissed as being motivated solely out of jealousy.
I agree with this, although XL saying or thinking criticisms of TSJ to himself don't really do it for me.
One of my favourite moments in the novel was when XY directly told TSJ that his kindness became a weakness when he faced TSH and FFYY. I really hope that gets kept in S2. I can't remember if it was included in the leaked script scenes that liddi translated.
We have different interpretations of who the devastating power belongs to, but even without that, Jing giving in to helplessness and not at least trying to get Xiao Yao out of there will never not be an issue for me. His sleeping for the next 37 years just compounds the problem. If he had stayed awake, maybe he could have sorted out his family drama and things wouldn't have gone to the dogs once XY wakes up.
Given the knowledge he had at the time, TSJ's behaviour at that point didn't really bother me. I find it hard to blame him for not doing enough for his future with XY when he thought she was irreversibly dead. And he did protect XY's body from the flames, which seems like more or less the same outcome as getting her body out of the path of the flames.
It's not impressive behaviour, but it doesn't make me hate his character.
I do think that it was a bit strange for Tong Hua to make it seem like XY, XL and CX took his behaviour as a positive sign of devotion. Maybe it was just necessary to further the narrative? I'll admit I prefer not to over think the many instances of attempted suicide / actual suicide / willingly accepting death that occur in this story.
It's more about should danger surface, Jing is not very capable of protecting XY. It's a good thing that XL taught XY archery so she won't have to rely solely on another person to protect her. At the end of the novel, the author arranges for Left Ear to be there - a substitute for XL of sorts. XL will no longer be there to protect XY or Jing, so his substitute will be tasked with that job, 'cause relying on Jing for this will result in an early grave for both of them.
I agree with all of this.
AH :
Zhi ji is a flexible term. It can have a very deep meaning, but it can also refer to a single moment of understanding.
The author of that piece and I will have to disagree about this one. Maybe the usage of this term has differed between Chinese and Vietnamese with time. Or maybe the terms have come to be used more casually in more modern times. I also find that cited example of Wen Kexin and Zhou Zhisou to be off - being able to see through the disguise could just mean Wen Kexin has high martial arts abilities and can spot Zhou Shisou's martial arts ability beneath that beggar's persona - it doesn't have anything to do with knowing the actual person which is what zhiji means. Using zhiji there just seems really off to me and cheapens the meaning of the word. Maybe the author just wanted to lay the groundwork for the zhiji relationship to come between these two characters and was a bit heavy-handed.
Hunxi Guilai doesn't seem to be alone in that view. In fact, when cyan wrote on this topic, she quoted Hunxi Guilai's post as a good explanation:
at its core, 知己 is about intimacy–in many shapes and at many levels.
before i continue, please read @hunxi-guilai’s post about 知己 and how it can vary in meaning and gravity depending on context. I’m gonna quote the paragraphs that are particularly relevant to my points here because no offense, i don’t trust anyone to read anything or put in the effort to meet me halfway anymore.
first:
People seem shocked when 知己 zhiji is a term dropped in casual conversation or daily dialogue, and they really shouldn’t be; it is as weighty or as casual as someone makes it in the moment. It is a living, breathing word that is actively employed in vernacular vocabularies, not some ancient artifact only pulled out and dusted off for the most significant/dramatic of occasions.
and second:
In the 《天涯客》 audiodrama, Zhou Zishu calls Wen Kexing a zhiji just for noticing that he’s sunning himself on the street (because Wen Kexing is the only one who sees through Zhou Zishu’s disguise at that moment, and doesn’t take him for a beggar). At that point, they haven’t even exchanged a single word, and Zhou Zishu remarks to himself that he hadn’t thought to meet a 知己 zhiji. He makes no more of it than that–just the acknowledgement oh, someone understood me, before moving on with his day.
Cyan went on to write:
as hunxi explained in her post, 知己 is a term that changes meaning and gravity depending on context and situational usage. just as it can be used with great significance, it can also be a totally casual thing. taking into account the tendency for fandom at large to think of translation as a one-to-one equivalency, when you consistently translate 知己 into “soulmate” you end up with… issues.
i think this is specifically due to its immutable register–“soulmate” is an inherently weighty term, something that is not true for 知己. furthermore, “soulmate” is likely to carry a romantic connotation in english, which, once again, is not true for 知己. this leads to, I think, a lot of misunderstanding and analytical mistakes when discussing both CQL and SHL, because even if people do understand that it’s not an exact translation, there’s still a persistent belief that 知己, like soulmate, is inherently weighty and sometimes almost explicitly romantic.
...
if I were forced to keep soulmate for at least one instance, i would pick the bottom right scene in 43, where wei wuxian remarks: “人生得一知己, 足矣.” // “to have a 知己 in one’s lifetime, that is enough”. unless i’m forgetting another instance, i would argue that this is wei wuxian’s weightiest use of the term throughout the entire series: this is in the present-day arc (so after *handwaves* all that trauma), lan wangji just stood beside him publicly and declared his loyalty on the steps of jinlin tai in front of the most prominent figures in their sphere, we’re getting close to the resolution of the plot, and wei wuxian has just learned about lan wangji’s punishment, aka the depths of his devotion. to go a little deeper, this is a quote from 20th century poet lu xun and is written in an elevated register. putting aside that this is a 20th century literary reference in fantasy ancient china (but then again: there’s really no point in trying to “accurately” date CQL. you may as well try to “accurately” date game of thrones), i think the register is meaningful because wei wuxian moves between registers depending on context, but in everyday speech, is most likely to sit comfortably in a colloquial range. an elevated register carries significance for him, unlike lan wangji for whom this is the norm. (yet again: see hunxi’s post on linguistic register in CQL for the rundown on that)
this is in stark contrast to the moment in episode 7 depicted in the top left image. wei wuxian and lan wangji have just presented the yin iron to lan xichen and lan qiren and explained their little adventure at the cold springs. wei wuxian speculates on how everything is connected and lan xichen confirms his reasoning and adds, “Wangji, when you asked me before, I couldn’t reveal the truth to you.” wei wuxian, realizing that he and lan wangji have had the same thoughts about the situation, goes, “哟，知己啊”, which basically means “hey, we’re 知己!” if i really wanted to capture the tone of this little interjection, i would say the mood is closest to something like: “yo, we totally vibe/we’re on the same wavelength/you get me/samesies!” etc etc. this is about as casual as you can get–it’s literally just 知己, prefaced by a particle that’s roughly equivalent to “hey/yo/oh!” and followed by an auxiliary particle to express a mild sense of enthusiasm.
you can make an argument to use “soulmates” again in this situation. after all, it’s not unusual to hyperbolize semi-ironically in english– “yo, we’re totally soulmates” or “hey, soulmate alert” etc. I don’t think these specific (exaggerated) examples are appropriate for CQL for obvious reasons, but i think that, in a vacuum, subtitling this as, “hey, it’s like we’re soulmates” could work.
HOWEVER, as I said before, im now anti-soulmate and I Would Prefer Not To, so let’s explore that.
as established, 知己 can naturally vary in gravity, while I personally don’t feel that soulmate does. so in order to keep the “soulmate” translation, I think you have to create a reading of tone that’s not exactly true to the character in the moment. if someone says, in a situation like this, “yo, it’s like we’re soulmates”, it’s understood that there’s an irony to it. they’re exaggerating for effect, etc. this isn’t necessarily OOC for wei wuxian in general, but I don’t think it’s true to what’s happening in this specific scene and more importantly, to the purpose of the 知己 motif throughout CQL. I believe that 知己 is being used earnestly, if lightly.
the 知己 motif is a CQL-only choice; it is not present in the mdzs novel. the use of 知己/知己-adjacent dialogue (i.e. dialogue concerning familiarity, recognition, understanding, insiders vs outsiders) over the course of the story is one of the ways that I think CQL was trying to illustrate a subtextual relationship that would be accepted by the censors. because it is a motif, I understand why we would want to translate the term with some degree of consistency in order to preserve its purpose.
i believe this hinges on the way that 知己 can naturally vary in tonal weight from very light to very heavy: it’s anything from “hey! we vibe” to “you are the only one who truly understands me”. to use “soulmate” as a blunt, one-to-one equivalence is a) bad because of my earlier points about how translation is never a one-to-one etc. and b) not to my taste specifically because “soulmate” lacks this natural fluidity, so even if you can make interesting artistic choices by varying the sincerity of how “soulmate” is used (as i showed a few paragraphs up), I think this has a subtle but profound effect on the way wangxian’s relationship is presented.
...
to me, I think this is enough reason to step back from trying to use the “soulmate” translation because it necessitates that kind of hyperbolic/ironic tone in english in that moment in episode 7, when I think it’s actually narratively salient that wei wuxian is being earnest. this is especially important for one of the first uses of 知己 in the story. 知己 grows heavier with each subsequent use as CQL progresses: it goes from something casual to something much more significant, but I don’t believe it’s ever used ironically–as i said, i believe the thematic axis is gravity. if we confine ourselves to using “soulmate” as a one-to-one translation for 知己, we inevitably hit snags because the terms just do not function the same way.
...
after thinking about it for a really long time, i think my preferred solution is actually fairly simple–instead of trying to translate 知己 as a rigid, one-word noun, just… translate what it means.
if you don’t already know, the two characters that make up 知己 are 知 “to know” and 己 “self”. so someone who is 知己 can literally be described as “one who knows me”. i think that to know and to understand are both english verbs that have the same natural weight variance as 知己. you can, completely sincerely, say both “oh yeah, I know her,” and “but i know her” for very different effect. i think that with some work and thought, you could come up with subtitles that not only circumvent the problem of reinforcing one-to-one translation tendencies and the misconceptions that those tend to breed, but also preserve the intended thematic throughline and are an acceptable length for actual subtitle timing and encoding.
it doesn't have anything to do with knowing the actual person which is what zhiji means.
Based on everything I've read on this topic, it seems like zhi ji can be used to convey both "knowing" and "understanding", and the way it's used in that instance is more about understanding than knowing.
AH :
XL and TSJ collaborated more than once and had one clear shared goal when it came to XY. I can see how someone might look at that and see two people who shared an understanding on some level / at some point.
I shared many goals and understanding with my colleagues and I sure as heck wouldn't call them my zhiji :-)
I think this necessarily ties back to our different views on whether zhi ji can be used with varying weight or not.
The illness that Jing suffered in chapter 33 was combination of the issues in heart and vein systems which he got during 37 years in coma (chapter 22) and psychological problems (e.g, anxiety, hopeless, depression etc..). XY examined him and told CX thatH19279:
“我上次去青丘，发现他病得不轻，如果再不及时医治，只怕活不过百年。我现在只是他的医师。”
"Last time I went to Qingqiu, I found that he was very ill. If he was not treated in time, he might not live for a hundred years. I am just his doctor now." (Chapter 34)
Nicely remembered!
I assume this estimate of TSJ's possible lifespan if he remained untreated no longer applied after XY thoroughly treated him and returned him to good health? Acknowledging, of course, that his health and lifespan would have been impacted again, by some unknown amount, in chapter 42.
Another questions how old was Jing by the end of the novel?
XL said that he had done business with Jing for 400 years. And for sure at that time Jing was matured. He would not be allowed to conduct dangerous business like the one with Sheng Nong army if he was a kid.
Does the original text specify 400 years?
Koala's translation just says, “Even before I knew you, I was already doing business with Tu Shan Jing for hundreds of years."
In chapter 49, TSJ says that when he started doing business, the Yellow Emperor had just united the Middle Plains, which occurred roughly 300 years before the events of the first chapter of LYF and roughly 420 years before the end of LYF.
-----
Chapter 49:
“Why help me? Only because of Xiao Yao?”
“No. When I first went out to do business, the Yellow Emperor had just united the Middle Plains and I followed the merchant groups to many places and saw people displaced by the war. I believed sincerely that the world needed a strong compassionate ruler, one who cared about the lives of all citizens. For Xiao Yao, I could break from clan rules and not support the other princes, but I couldn’t truly go against my clan and openly support Your Majesty as ruler. I did what I did because I know Your Majesty’s magnanimous hope for the world and I remain steadfast in believing that my choice is correct. Even today I do not regret my choice, and I know Feng Long didn’t as well. Our choice and determination to support you is the right one.”
Jing told XY that Mai Lan had been married with Hou for hundreds of years. And Hou was only 8 days older than Jing. My brief estimation is Jing was at least 600 year old by that time.
Do you remember which chapter TSJ told XY that TSH was married to ML for hundreds of years by any chance? I recall that ML was aware that TSH and FFYY had been having an affair for 60 years, but I don't recall TSJ mentioning that TSH and ML were married for hundreds of years.
In Chapter 18, TSJ said that TSH was a good brother to him for 400 years, presumably ending just before the scheduled date for his wedding with FFYY / the time when TSH kidnapped him and began torturing him. TSH tortured TSJ for three years before the events of the first chapter of the novel.
So I would've estimated TSJ to be more like ~523 by the end of the novel (400 + 3 + ~120), with TSJ starting to conduct business around the age of 120, rather than over 600 years old.
-----
Chapter 18:
“Even though mother was always unfair, but since birth he never treated me poorly. We had no dad and he got no love from mother, so he placed all the familial love he craved on me. He was my age but acted like an older brother and dad surrogate, always taking care of me. When I got complimented he would beam with pride. I once asked him why and he said that even if he hurt, I was his beloved younger brother and he was proud of me. We were loving brothers that were the envy of all. He really was an exceptional older brother for four hundred years. Xiao Yao, I can’t kill him!” Jing’s voice conveyed his sadness and regret and guilt, because he knew his choice would bind him and bind Xiao Yao.
Do you remember which chapter TSJ told XY that TSH was married to ML for hundreds of years by any chance?AH :
Chapter 33
当年，母亲命大哥娶大嫂，奶奶没有反对，可为了弥补大哥，给了大哥好几个妾侍，大嫂从没有说过什么，上百年都过来了，何至于为大哥外面的女人和大哥闹？
Back then, my mother ordered my elder brother to marry his sister-in-law, and my grandmother didn't object. However, in order to make up for my elder brother, she gave him several concubines. The sister-in-law never said anything and has been here for hundreds of years. Why bother my elder brother over the women outside ?
Chapter 18:
“Even though mother was always unfair, but since birth he never treated me poorly. We had no dad and he got no love from mother, so he placed all the familial love he craved on me. He was my age but acted like an older brother and dad surrogate, always taking care of me. When I got complimented he would beam with pride. I once asked him why and he said that even if he hurt, I was his beloved younger brother and he was proud of me. We were loving brothers that were the envy of all. He really was an exceptional older brother for four hundred years. Xiao Yao, I can’t kill him!” Jing’s voice conveyed his sadness and regret and guilt, because he knew his choice would bind him and bind Xiao Yao.
“虽然母亲一直偏心，可自小到大，大哥从来没有对我不好过。我们从小就没有父亲，他又得不到母亲的关怀，所以他把对亲情的渴望都放在了我身上，明明和我一般大，可总说长兄如父，凡事都让着我，处处都照顾我。别人夸奖我时，他也会觉得自豪。我曾不解地问他，他告诉我，他是为自己难受，可因为我是他弟弟，并不影响他为我感到骄傲。我们兄友弟恭，是所有人都羡慕的好兄弟。他曾经是极好的哥哥，我们做了四百多年的好兄弟。小夭，我没有办法杀他！”璟的语气中有浓浓的抱歉，因为他的这个选择，他不仅束缚了自己，还束缚了小夭。
Although my mother has always been biased, my eldest brother has never been unkind to me since I was a child. We have not had a father since we were young, and he did not receive the care from mother, so he put all his desire for family affection on me. Obviously, he is the same age as me, but he always said that an elder brother was like a father, letting me do everything and taking care of me. When others praised me, he would also feel proud. I once asked him in confusion, and he told me that he was doing it for me. I felt uncomfortable, but because I am his younger brother, it did not stop him from being proud of me. We were good brothers that everyone envied. He was once an excellent brother, and we had been good brothers for more than four hundred years. Xiaoyao, I can't kill him!" Jing's tone was full of regret. Because of his choice, he not only restrained himself, but also restrained Xiaoyao.
@AH. Wall of text coming your way. Less snark this time :-). 99% of this is personal opinion rather than comprehension or interpretation of the text. The joy of reading, once comprehension is done, is then deciding which character you like, which one you would be friends with, which one you wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole etc. All of these are of course based on personal experiences and preferences.
I think I saw a post once that referred to XL as the biggest YaoJing shipper?
Was this person a YaoJing fan? :-). Darn the number of things I've seen lately from YaoJing's fans who claimed that XL knew that he wasn't good enough for XY, that she didn't love him and that Jing was the best man for her so he wanted them to end up together have been...a lot :-)
I'm inclined to think he would've been in the "barest minimum of approval" position simply because it's pretty bleak if he put in so much effort to help XY and TSJ be together and he didn't even have that level of approval for TSJ as a partner to XY. But that's just me.
I do agree with your process of elimination. The difference is that I would probably pick the "neutral option.
I can see your good intentions - you mentioned this in a previous post (which I still need to reply to). For me, XL's actions are all about XY and he has to work within XY's limitations. XY wanted someone who would put her first and wouldn't abandon her. Frankly, there are not many men out there with self-respect, dreams and goals who would sign up for this. Jing is the only one because XY is his reason for living (an extremely unhealthy mindset, which we won't go into here). Jing isn't going to deliberately harm XY or be a danger to her so he passed the bare minimum requirements. And because XY was willing to marry 17 (XL confirmed that) so 17 it is. So instead of whether XL approved of Jing, I see it as XY approved of Jing and Jing isn't going to cause XY's deliberate harm so why not?
I know lots of people love that TJC chose to play XL more expressively, and that the drama has added more lines and scenes where XL's emotions are externalized in less subtle ways. I acknowledge that my preferences are in the minority here. ^^
I like characters across the spectrum of personalities, but I do have a preference for those who say little but do a lot. Pretty words and promises are cheap - show me your action. So the Mr. Darcys and XLs of the world totally do it for me.
I'm not too fond of drama's XL leaning into lovelorn territory and sometimes looking like a kicked puppy ̣(that entire scene in XY's bedroom was not XL at all ). XL, to me, is very dignified. He feels deeply, but he's restrained. What I like about TJC's XL is how he conveyed XL's internal conflict - he provides a visual presentation of what I'd imagined XL to be feeling had Tong Hua given us his POV in the novel. There were many moments where I could see how much TJC's XL wanted to confess, to take a chance and come what may, but then he would pull himself back and crack a heartbreaking smile as if reminding himself of why they could not be. TJC does such a good job at acting, that I can't help but like his XL. So while he's not totally the XL from the novel, I view him as a variation and go with it. I tried to approach adaptations as an alternate version of the story. It makes watching easier, otherwise I would feel frustrated with the constant comparison. The Season 2 leaked script, though.... probably more than I can accept :-(
I find it hard to blame him for not doing enough for his future with XY when he thought she was irreversibly dead. And he did protect XY's body from the flames, which seems like more or less the same outcome as getting her body out of the path of the flames.
This whole thing bothered me because it showed that Jing is weak; he's prone to helplessness and has no fighting spirit. Neither XL nor CX would have done what Jing did - and it isn't because they love XY less than he does. They would have fought and exhausted all possibilities; Jing just folded like a cheap house of cards. Lack of strength of character aside, it's also because Jing had made XY his reason for living which doesn't speak well for his character to me. I don't see this as romantic - throwing away honour, responsibilities, rhyme and reason for "love" just showed me that this person is not well-balanced and has issues.
I can't agree with the second sentence at all. One, he thought she was dead, so what was the purpose of his action really (besides a plot device)? To keep her corpse pretty for the funeral parade? Two, his act of protecting XY's body was utterly redundant because by not trying to get XY out of there, Jing essentially would have condemned XY to death. If CX's people hadn't come in time there would have been 2 corpses. He thought she was dead so it was not intentional, you say? And that is the problem with Jing and people like him. They don't intend to do it, they didn't mean to cause problems - but their weakness, their failure to take appropriate actions creates problems. Not just for themselves, but also for other people. It was the case here, and it was the case with Hou, and it was the case with his engagement to FFYY. Ultimately, someone else has to step in to solve the problem.
It's not impressive behaviour, but it doesn't make me hate his character.
His character is pitiful, and this is the insidious thing about Jing and his ilk. Often you feel like you can't be angry at them or hold them accountable because they didn't mean to do it or because they were too "kind". And they are so helpless and pitiful. How can you be angry at such a kind person? How can you be mean and kick such a pitiful creature when they are already down? Jing is catnip to someone like XY with her psychological deficiencies. The novel even stated that because their relationship started from pity, she softened easily towards him. She gave him many chances when another person would have seen through him and told him to shape up or ship out a long time ago.
I don't hate Jing. What I feel for him is impatience and contempt. Jing is not someone that I can respect, and I cannot love a partner that I can't respect. So as a love interest, he doesn't work for me. Yes, he works for XY because of her particular set of issues, but I cannot see ending up with such a man as a good thing. Particularly as I don't think that he has shown convincing changes by the end of the novel.
My opinion on this character definitely stemmed from personal values and experiences with the Jings of the world. They suck you in at first because they're not bad people - they can be nice, kind and smart etc. But once they "unintentionally" screwed you over a few times due to their "willing, but unable" incompetence, you start to see that being "not bad people" is the bare minimum and you should set your bar higher.
I do think that it was a bit strange for Tong Hua to make it seem like XY, XL and CX took his behaviour as a positive sign of devotion.
It makes sense for XY given her psychological deficiencies. XY is insecure, she doesn't think she's worthy enough. Her insistence on someone who would always put her first and who would never leave her stemmed from these distorted beliefs. While a "healthy" person looks askance at his behaviour and sees it for what it really is (a weak character), Jing couldn't live without her and wanting to die with her was like a beacon for XY's insecurity. She sees it as confirmation that, at last, here is someone who would never leave me, who thinks that I am worthy. Their exchange in the scene when Jing wakes up is an example of how not to have a relationship. Jing was all "I'm willing to be your slave as long as I can stay by your side" (self-respect, where? Healthy? I think not.), and XY was all "I love that you can't let me go to the point of dying with me" (she needs a shrink :-)). This dynamic is dysfunctional and I don't see it as love. TH did not lie when she said that XY's choices came from her psychological deficiencies.
I don't think that XL and CX knew that Jing didn't try to get XY out of there. Their responses might have been different if they had. Those two would have done their best to get XY out of that maze, so they probably assumed that Jing would have tried to do the same thing.
Also, I don't think Tong Hua wants us to see Jing behaviour as healthy.
On the topic of zhiji. language is dynamic and it changes with time. Reading through what you posted, I get the sense that the term zhiji has been adopted and used more casually in modern times.
” wei wuxian, realizing that he and lan wangji have had the same thoughts about the situation, goes, “哟，知己啊”, which basically means “hey, we’re 知己!” if i really wanted to capture the tone of this little interjection, i would say the mood is closest to something like: “yo, we totally vibe/we’re on the same wavelength/you get me/samesies!”
This exchange in particular strikes me as a modern author applying this modern usage in her writing. The original meaning of the word has essentially been lost when used in this way. And in this scene as well, there's this jesting tone - kinda like "OMG, we're totally vibing on this, we should be besties". But we know that it takes more than that to be "best friends". I see it as a throw-away comment that is not meant to be taken seriously. As the rest of your quoted text said, eventually, the term zhiji became more serious, more in line with what it actually means in subsequent mentions. I don't know if I'm making sense here.
I think this necessarily ties back to our different views on whether zhi ji can be used with varying weight or not.
Yes, it probably does.
The person who wrote the particular post that I mentioned very much means this term in the traditional sense of the word, and I strongly disagree with applying this particular term with its original seriousness to the relationship between Jing and Xiang Liu.
At the end of the day, I'm not going to tell someone how they should use their own languages. And if I converse with people in Vietnamese more, I probably would throw around "OMG, we're totally tri kỉ (the Vietnamese form for zhiji) because we both like avocados on toast" :-). I hope I've been as respectful as I can in discussing this matter.
@AHplor20:
I really appreciated your responses and evaluation of TSJ as a character. It does help redeem him a bit for me.
The feeling is mutual. These discussions always have me re-evaluating my positions / understandings, and sometimes they bring up really helpful clarifications or interesting hidden details. Absolutely love it.
I would like add another input, if I may.
Always.
TSJ has a history of not following through on commitments.
Agreed.
His immediate failure to follow through with his commitment to help WXL in chapter 3 is the one that bothers me the most. It felt so unnecessary and I never felt like he redeemed himself for it.
And it was so pivotal for XY. She put her trust in him and relied on him! If he had rewarded that trust by being consistently reliable, wouldn't that have helped XY heal from some of her trauma and begin to let go of her "I have to always be strong, never show weakness, and only ever rely on myself because no one else can be relied on or trusted" mentality? Instead his betrayal hurt her, re-opened old wounds, and re-enforced her insecurities, making it even harder for her to put her trust in someone again.
Asking XY for a 15year commitment but then failing due to his inaction suggests he values his family, particularly his grandmother, more than XY--despite wanting a life and family with her. In Confusion thought, TSJ is right to be filial. However, his expectation for XY to stay committed was selfish.
I view it as a bit more complex than that.
TSJ promised to end his engagement and return YSQ to WXL within 15 years, and he asked WXL to wait for him by not letting another man into her heart during that time. At the time of the promise, TSJ did not know that WXL was Eldest Princess Gao Xing Jiu Yao. When XY's true identity was revealed, it affected TSJ's options because YSQ could be with WXL, but in order to be with XY he needed the status that his identity as TSJ had, which YSQ did not have.
When it came to breaking his engagement with FFYY, TSJ did not have direct control over it. Betrothal agreements between noble families were arranged by elders. TSJ's mother arranged his engagement and would have needed the approval of the clan leader (TSJ's grandmother) to finalize it. After TSJ's mother passed, his grandmother was the sole decision maker. TSJ asked his grandmother to cancel the engagement several times. Initially, she outright refused. Later, she strung him along by eventually agreeing to postpone the wedding and telling him to take FFYY with him and to treat her like a sister because the clan owed her. In chapter 16 he was still convinced that he would be able to convince his grandmother to cancel the engagement. In chapter 18, TSJ said that FFYY was being colder and colder to him. He thought that he might be able to convince her to agree to break the engagement, but then after Feng Long and Xing Yue's birthday party FFYY completely changed her tune and pulled out all the stops to convince his grandmother to keep the engagement and push ahead with the wedding.
At that point, TSJ's options were pretty limited.
(1) He could've faked his death and used his transformation abilities as a descendant of the nine-tailed fox to take on a new identity.
- XY considered this option back in chapter 14, but she realized, "Jing disappeared once already, if it happened again, forget Tu Shan Hou, his grandmother wouldn’t accept his death until she saw his corpse with her own eyes." TSJ also added, "After going back, I realized my brother has been leading the clan into danger. If I leave, I worry he will destroy the family." And he thought to himself, "It actually wasn’t just his family, if Xiao Yao was Wen Xiao Liu then he would be Ye Shi Qi with her in some remote mountain for the rest of their lives. But she was the Gao Xing Princess, and seeing her at the massive royal ceremony, he knew that neither of them could go back. A man who deserved to be with Xiao Yao couldn’t be a coward, if he wanted to be with her, then he needed to end the engagement. He needed to be Tu Shan Jing and openly walk to be with Xiao Yao."
(2) He could have completely renounced his identity as TSJ and cut all ties with the Tushan clan.
- If TSJ had taken this approach, it would be seen as him being massively ungrateful, unfilial and disrespectful towards his grandmother, who was his elder (as you mentioned, someone he was supposed to show respect and be filial to) and someone he viewed as having doted on him and having helped raise him with great care.
- He also might feel that this would be shirking his responsibility to his family / clan, and others might view it that way too.
- This would have lost him the status he needed in order to be with XY, it would have severely limited his ability to help XY and CX, and it likely would have made him a pariah and perhaps even a liability to XY.
(3) As CX (and later XL) suggested, TSJ could have ended the engagement by hiring someone to kill FFYY.
- TSJ did not pursue this option for obvious reasons, but I think it's worth noting in particular that TSJ still thought that FFYY was basically an innocent person at this point. He didn't know that she had tried to assassinate CX. He didn't know that she had tried to assassinate him. He didn't know that she had been having an affair with TSH for years.
- In chapter 24, XY said, "Honestly, if Jing was like you and was hardhearted enough to decide on the plan to kill Fang Feng Yi Yang to end the engagement, then I would actually leave him."
- As we see throughout the novel, assassination attempts don't always succeed (or stick).
- An assassination might create a whole new set of problems (e.g., a blood feud with the Fang Feng family if TSJ's role was discovered).
(4) TSJ could have tried to force the relevant elders to end the engagement by doing something to make FFYY ineligible to marry him (e.g., ironically, framing her for having an affair with another man).
- Again, keep in mind that TSJ still thought that FFYY was innocent at this point. So, as far as he was aware, ruining her would mean ruining an innocent person.
- Given all the work that FFYY had put into getting TSJ's grandmother to like her and making people think that she was super loyal to TSJ since she waited so many years for him and refused to let her father end the engagement when TSJ "fell ill", a mere rumor probably wouldn't be enough. TSJ would need to frame her with a bullet-proof accusation to make sure she didn't weasel out of it and didn't end up being viewed as a victim of a false accusation. And he'd need to make sure that he didn't end up harming his own reputation in a way that might jeopardize his ability to be with XY.
- The likelihood of this approach succeeding without serious unintended consequences seems pretty low.
(5) He could have unilaterally made some kind of public declaration about never marrying FFYY to try and force the elders to cancel the engagement.
- Again, this option would involve causing harm to someone (FFYY) that TSJ viewed as innocent.
- This option would likely create strife between the Fang Feng clan and the Tushan clan.
- Again, to TSJ, this option would have basically entailed him being ungrateful, unfilial and disrespectful towards his grandmother and might be viewed (by TSJ and by others) as him shirking his responsibilities to his family / clan.
- This approach might harm TSJ's reputation in a way that could jeopardize his ability to be with XY.
- This approach might jeopardize the status that he needed in order to be with XY.
(6) When speaking with his grandmother and FFYY in private, TSJ could have been more forceful about his position (i.e., that he was never, ever going to go through with the marriage no matter what) in the hope of convincing them that it would be in FFYY's best interest for the elders to agree to cancel the engagement rather than having her remain as a perpetual fiancee.
- My sense is that TSJ more or less did this (but maybe wasn't quite as forceful as I would have preferred) and found it to be ineffective.
- This option still would have many of the downsides listed for the options noted above (e.g., it would involve TSJ being disrespectful and unfilial towards his grandmother) and was unlikely to be any more effective than the actions that TSJ already took.
While it might have been more satisfying for TSJ to at least try some of the options above than to keep letting the engagement drag on + seemingly not doing anything at all about it, these options weren't good options (and it wasn't just that they weren't good for him - they wouldn't have benefitted XY either), so I don't really blame him for not taking them. Although it seemed like TSJ was choosing to prioritize other things / people over XY, I honestly don't think TSJ had a viable option available to him that would have gotten XY what she wanted. So it wasn't like he chose to forgo an option like that in favour of a different option.
That said, once it became obvious that he almost certainly was not going to be able to end the engagement within the 15 year time period, should TSJ have "freed" XY from her side of the 15-year promise? Maybe. But honestly I don't think XY wanted him to, and I even think that she might have felt hurt or even abandoned if he had done so.
In chapter 18, TSJ was transparent about the fact that he had reached an impasse with FFYY and his grandmother on the engagement, and XY told him not to worry about it and to focus on guarding against TSH.
-----
Chapter 18:
Xiao Yao asked, “So you guys are stuck at an impasse?”
Jing nodded his head. “I can’t end the engagement, they can’t force me to marry Yi Yang.”
Xiao Yao sighed – just like Zhuan Xu said, it would be very difficult for Jing to end the engagement.
Xiao Xiao whooshed past on her winged ride as if to remind Xiao Yao it was time to go back. Xiao Yao said, “I promised you fifteen years. As long as you don’t marry, I’ll keep that promise. Don’t worry about Yi Yang for now. Gege said there were over a dozen assassins. Who do you think was behind it? Hou?”
-----
And then, after the assassination in chapter 21, the remainder of the 15-year period ran out while XY was healing and TSJ was in a coma. When they reunited, XY was no longer bound by her promise and still chose to pursue a relationship with TSJ even though he still hadn't ended his engagement.
Was it wrong / selfish for TSJ to confess his feelings and to ask XY to make the 15-year promise when he wasn't available and to make a promise he couldn't guarantee he could keep? On some level, yes I think it was. TSJ even acknowledged that it was. But it also seemed like something that XY wanted, and (I know this is definitely not how most YaoLius view it), I didn't feel like XY was unwillingly trapped / restrained by that promise. So I don't view his asking her to make that promise as a particularly terrible thing for him to do.
For TSJ to commit to being TSZ's father and then choose XY over the child reflects poor decision-making and downright heartless to me. No one should prioritize their partner over their child.
TSJ was tricked by his grandmother and fiancee into thinking that his fiancee had raped him and gotten pregnant in the process. Then he was forced to end his relationship with XY and to marry FFYY. Despite the terrible circumstances, when TSZ was born, TSJ raised him well and was a good father to him. After TSJ discovered the truth about TSZ's parentage, TSJ continued to raise him well and to treat him like his own son. Then TSH poisoned TSZ and used TSJ's relationship with TSZ to lure TSJ into a trap. TSJ completely put TSZ first at that time.
-----
Chapter 42:
Hu Mao was a thorough person so this news couldn’t be wrong. With twenty more days until the wedding, Jing could make the return trip with plenty of time. But Jing felt unease, that he shouldn’t go, but even if Zhen may not be his real son he was Jing’s real nephew. Plus in Zhen’s eyes, Jing was the father and if anything were to happen to Zhen then Jing would never forgive himself.
Jing decided to go, taking Hu Zhen along to Qing Shui Town plus having You bring along extra guards.
This was the first time Jing asked for the most skilled guards so You was taken aback. “The wedding is next month, if Clan Leader has any premonitions then please don’t make the trip.”
Jing replied, “If anything were to happen to Zhen, the wedding wouldn’t go on either.”
You bowed. “I understand! Clan Leader rest assured that we will make sure you are back for the wedding as that is the sole purpose of our job.”
...
Jing asked, “How is Zhen Er?”
Yi Yang appeared dazed and pointed wordlessly to the pallet. Hu Zhen rushed up to take a pulse while Jing kneeled down and gently said, “Zhen Er, Dad is here.”
Zhen could make out Jing and burst into tears, reaching out to embrace Jing. “Dad, I’m in so much pain. Am I dying?”
Jing took Zhen into his arms. “Don’t cry! Don’t cry! You need to be brave. Dad brought the best doctor here and once you’ve recovered Dad will take you to see the open ocean.”
Zhen weakly said, “I want to see the ocean.”
Both Jing and Zhen looked hopefully towards Hu Zhen, who furrowed his brows and set down Zhen’s wrist to examine his eyes and tongue. Jing noticed Hu Zhen’s expression was dark so smiled at Zhen. “Sleep a bit, okay?”
Zhen was already exhausted. “Yes, I’ll sleep a bit. Dad, stay with me.”
“Okay, Dad will stay with you.” Jing placed his hand on Zhen’s forehead and soon he was asleep.
Jing asked Hu Zhen, “What’s the illness?”
Hu Zhen replied, “It’s not an illness, it’s poison.”
Jing didn’t even try to ask how and anxiously asked, “Is there an antidote?”
...
Jing coldly said, “I’m here now, give Zhen the antidote.”
Yi Yang was taken aback. “You’re not even going to ask why you were lured here?”
Jing grabbed Yi Yang hard by her arm and dragged her to the pallet “Antidote!” Because he was so enraged, his voice was low and his face harsh.
Yi Yang fell on the pallet and looked up at Jing, a sheen of tears misted over her eyes. “You really do care about Zhen.”
Jing coldly repeated, “Antidote!” and used power in his grip until Yi Yang’s body shook. Yi Yang struggled. “The antidote is in the hands of the person who had me do this.”
Jing tossed Yi Yang on the ground and roared, “Tu Shan Hou!”
Hou walked into the room with a smile and joked, “The one who was poisoned is my own son. I’m not even anxious, my good little brother, why are you in such a rush?”
-----
TSH nearly killed TSJ and caused TSJ to disappear for 7 years. In that time, TSJ was presumed dead and XY asked CX to help TSZ (who she knew was still a child) to become the Tushan clan leader. CX agreed and, thanks to his intervention, the clan elders agreed to make TSZ clan leader and to assist and support him until he came of age. Feng Long said that the clan elders could handle the clan's affairs together, and that (with CX's support), the clan would be able to manage until TSZ grew up.
-----
Chapter 44:
Xiao Yao asked about the Tu Shan clan situation and Zhuan Xu said, “It’s a bit of a mess. Tu Shan Zhen is the successor in name but the clan elders know he isn’t Jing’s real son so they are complicating things with their plotting. The Tu Shan clan is a prime piece of flesh that everyone wants a bite out of, and the world would be thrilled to see internal strife in the clan so they are fanning the discord.”
Zhuan Xu never mentioned Jing actively but if Xiao Yao asked then he discussed it directly. He was like a doctor treating a patient, he didn’t hide the injury but also didn’t actively exacerbate it. He knew Xiao Yao was very sensitive to any mention of Jing’s death but he chose not to shy away from the subject now.
Xiao Yao asked, “Can you get involved with the Tu Shan clan situation?”
“Of course I can’t openly, but neither can the other players. So everyone is getting involved behind the scenes.”
Xiao Yao said, “As long as I am alive, I don’t want the Tu Shan clan to fall.”
Zhuan Xu asked, “What do you want to do?”
Xiao Yao said, “Tu Shan Zhen is not Jing’s son but he is the bloodline of the Tu Shan clan. I think the Tu Shan Grand Madam would not have objected to him being the clan leader.”
Zhuan Xu asked, “His parents killed Jing, don’t you hate him?”
Xiao Yao was silent for some time before saying, “If Hou was still alive I could cut him into millions of pieces, but Tu Shan Zhen is just a child and he did nothing wrong. You and I know what it’s like to grow up without parents, and his birth isn’t something good to begin with so his life is already going to be hard. If he can’t be the clan leader then others will likely harm him one day. He is the successor in name and blood, I don’t want Jing to come back one day and have Zhen gone.”
Zhuan Xu was startled into silence by Xiao Yao’s words, but after a few moments he smiled, “Fine, let Tu Shan Zhen be the clan leader then.”
Xiao Yao said, “Thank you.”
...
Feng Long chuckled, Xiao Yao really had a way of thinking that was always different from other people. He could never understand her thought process. Perhaps the only one who understood her was Jing, but……Feng Long’s smile turned down. “The Tu Shan elders have agreed to let Tu Shan Zhen become clan leader and will assist and support him until he comes of age. The elders handle the Tu Shan clan affairs together, and with His Majesty’s support, the Tu Shan clan can manage until Zhen grows up.”
Zhuan Xu had already told this to her so Xiao Yao didn’t believe Feng Long came all this way just to tell her this.
-----
By the time TSJ was revived, the Tushan clan was stable and, according to Hu Zhen, TSZ was "good, very good". Instead of doing anything to disturb that situation (e.g., like trying to reclaim the position of Tushan clan leader for himself until TSZ was grown and ready to take over), TSJ decided to only leave TSZ a message.
I'm sure it wasn't easy for TSJ to not see TSZ and to not continue in his role as TSZ's father-figure, and I'm sure TSZ would have preferred to have his uncle / father-figure back in his life. But TSZ had already spent 7 years living in a world where everyone thought that TSJ was dead. That was his new normal. The clan elders were handling the clan's affairs and TSZ had CX, Hu Zhen, Jing Ye and Hu Mao looking out for him. His situation wasn't ideal, but it seemed tolerable.
If TSJ had decided to go back to being TSZ's father-figure, that likely would have required him taking up the position of clan leader again. Which would have meant trapping XY in the life of the wife of "TSJ, the Tushan clan leader" instead of being with XY as YSQ, allowing XY to be free, and following wherever she wanted / needed to go (e.g., the ocean). If TSJ had chosen to be softhearted towards his family yet again at XY's expense, wouldn't fans have blamed him for it? IMO, the fact that he chose to be hard-hearted towards TSZ and to prioritize XY seems like TSJ choosing not to repeat his past mistakes, even when the choice was not an easy one to make.
-----
Chapter 50:
Jing asked Hu Zhen, “How is Zhen Er?”
“Good, very good!” Hu Zhen recounted all that happened to make Tu Shan Zhen the new clan leader and finished, “The new Clan leader may be the son of Tu Shan Hou and Fang Feng Yi Yang, but he was raised by you so has your bearing. I believe he will be a great clan leader.”
Jing Ye added, “We decided to tell him the truth because of all the rumors being circulated and he was bound to hear it. We handed him the letter from Fang Feng Yi Yang early and after learning his birth secret he was so devastated for some time. But he composed himself and accepted that his birth parents were in the wrong and still calls you dad and refers to Hou as his uncle.”
Jing said, “Death ends everything so when you guys have time, tell him stories of my brother when we were young and how close we were. Let him understand that my brother had his own reason for doing what he did, and that it was his grandmother who was wrong in the first.”
Jing Ye hated Hou so much but now that Jing was back she was able to start letting go. “I will do so.”
Hu Zhen saw through the underlying request, “Why not have you tell him? Are you planning to leave Qing Qiu?”
Jing smiled. “Tonight I came to say my farewells.”
Jing Ye started crying again as Hu Zhen asked, “Where are you going?”
Jing glanced at Xiao Yao. “I go wherever Xiao Yao goes.”
Hu Zhen held back saying more, now the Tu Shan clan was stable and the road that Jing and Xiao Yao took was so long and arduous.
Jing handed two jade cannisters to Hu Zhen. “One is for Zhen Er and the other to the clan elders.”
Hu Zhen took it carefully. “Don’t worry, we will protect and serve the clan leader until he is all grown up.”
-----
Chapter 42:
Then came word from Hu Mao that Tu Shan Zhen was critically ill and couldn’t take in any food and water, only calling out for his father in bouts of alertness.
Hu Mao was Hu Yao’s brother and both were loyal servants to Jing. Hu Mao was tasked with taking care of Zhen since he was born, and even if Hu Mao hated Yi Yang and Hou, he couldn’t bring himself to hate young Zhen and instead took very good care of him.
...
Hu Mao was a thorough person so this news couldn’t be wrong.
-----
TL;DR I do think that TSJ was being hard-hearted towards TSZ when he made this decision and my heart goes out to TSZ (yet another child who lost his parents and parental figure too young), but I'm not sure that I would say that TSJ's decision demonstrated poor decision-making skills or complete heartlessness, and I'm not sure I'd say that it was a decision that he shouldn't have made.
Great character growth would be TSJ telling XY he cannot abandon his son.
On the one hand, if TSJ chose TSZ over being with XY, I suppose that would demonstrate character growth for him.
But on the other hand, TSJ being softhearted towards a family member in a way that hurt XY / failed to prioritize her seems like a complete repeat of all the earlier circumstances when he was softhearted towards TSH, his grandmother and FFYY in a way that hurt XY. And in that sense it would be the opposite of character growth.
Plus, TSJ disappeared on XY (abandoning her in a sense) for seven years. His disappearance was partly caused by his soft-heartedness towards his nephew (he chose to go to QS town to check on TSZ, who was ill, despite sensing that it would be risky) and partly caused by his soft-heartedness towards his brother (since TSJ chose to only clip TSH's wings instead of killing him in order to eliminate the threat he posed). If TSJ returned and stopped XY from becoming the Royal Mother, but then turned around and told XY that he was going to choose to be a father to TSZ, to return to being clan leader, and to let her go off to wander the world without him? IMO, that doesn't seem right at all, or like good character growth.
For XY to accept TSJ, the only father TSZ knows, abandoning him for her sake is quite distasteful. Have she not learn from her own yearning for a mother's and father's love and attention?
I agree with this. Given their own experiences, XY and TSJ should both empathize and sympathize with TSZ's situation. I was also surprised when XY asked CX to help TSZ become clan leader (and seemed to think that doing so was protecting him?) instead of coming up with some other option where he wouldn't have to face such a burden.
But at the same time, I sympathize with TSJ and XY and everything they had gone through by that point. So many assassination attempts, brushes with death, and betrayals. I get why they chose to leave it all behind, even when that meant not returning TSJ to his role as TSZ's father figure.
Great character growth would be TSJ telling XY he cannot abandon his son. He doesn't want TSZ to grow up without a father, as he did. For XY's character development, she should acknowledge TSZ's need for both parents. She can either help TSJ raise him or accept that life has other plans, confidently exploring the islands XL told her about, trusting TSJ will be there when she returns. That would've been the redeeming character development that would prove that XY and TSJ have grown from thier selfishness and emotional deficiencies.
I do think that something like this could have been a healthier (albeit, perhaps more underwhelming) ending for them.
I'm a bit on the fence about having XY help TSJ raise TSZ. I do like the idea of XY getting to contribute to a child being spared from the feelings of abandonment that she experienced as a child. And I imagine XY would have been mentally prepared to play that kind of role for TSZ before her scheduled wedding to TSJ in chapter 42. But I hesitate a bit because I wouldn't want an ending that felt like it was trapping XY. So it would need to be framed in a way that really made it feel like a choice and something that would make her happy rather than something she felt compelled to do even though it would make her unhappy.
In a version where TSJ stays behind to raise TSZ while XY leaves... I find it hard to picture the conversation where they would make that decision. But I do think there's potential there. XY could leave with Left Ear and Miao Pu to explore the ocean, but maybe she would promise to meet TSJ once a year (like her parents' promise), and by the time TSZ was grown she'd have satiated her desire to wander / explore, and she and TSJ would settle into a peaceful, secluded lifestyle like the one that was alluded to in their scenes in chapter 8 and chapter 14? Healthier maybe, but also a bit more boring I think. ^^
blabla100:
@plor20
"For TSJ to commit to being TSZ's father and then choose XY over the child reflects poor decision-making and downright heartless to me. No one should prioritize their partner over their child.
For XY to accept TSJ, the only father TSZ knows, abandoning him for her sake is quite distasteful. Have she not learn from her own yearning for a mother's and father's love and attention?"100%. I really don't understand what TH tried to do here, she said that story about those 2 women, one who's husband died and as a result she killed herself, leaving her child to be raised by another woman as an exemple of don't be like that, but in the end both Jing and XY did basically the same with TSZ. I am really confused about this part.
This is what I've been saying all along. On the very surface reading of a superficial romance relying on cliches and tropes, you can see the 'happy ending' that the YaoJing are eating by the bowlful. BUT, if you look at the parallels and foreshadowing that Tong Hua deliberately draws, like the 8 tailed fox demon imprisoning XY for 30 years and then Jing imprisoning XY in the 15 years promise in a literal prison; like CX's mother killing herself over the death of her husband, leaving CX an orphan, and Jing attempting to kill himself over the 'death' of XY, leaving his responsibilities and family behind, then you have to question what Tong Hua is doing here, though I question her treatment of XY more than Jing. To me, there's no doubt that Tong Hua wrote Jing to be ... well, I'll be kind and say a poor choice for a life partner.
@headInTheCloud
GMTA :-). If you ever doubt Jing's uselessness, just remember this
It never gets old :-)
I seem to have read something about Yangzi commenting on Merlin Jing's scenes. She said instead of just hugging and kissing me, then dying with me, you'd better find a way to get me out of here so I can survive.
Another wall of text coming your way, AH :-). This one is, once again, all about my subjective opinion. Everything is aimed at the subject matters, not at the readers :-).
TSJ is willing to be hard-hearted towards a family member (Tushan Zhen) in order to put XY's needs first.
Like I said above, as troubling as this decision is (and I note that it was XY who asked CX to ensure that Tushan Zhen became clan leader before TSJ returned), my sense is that it was included as evidence that TSJ had changed.
Like I said above, as troubling as this decision is (and I note that it was XY who asked CX to ensure that Tushan Zhen became clan leader before TSJ returned), my sense is that it was included as evidence that TSJ had changed.
My issue with Jing has never been about his inability to put Xiao Yao's needs first above all other things. To me, Xiao Yao's insistence on always being first is unreasonable and unhealthy and is very much a manifestation of her trauma. So for Jing to go along with it, for him to abandon his child to cater to Xiao Yao is not a positive indicator of his character. It's just the opposite. It shows me that he's a weak man who can not tell right from wrong, who is so addled by "love" that he would do such a ludicrous and irresponsible thing. It tells me that he's a very sick man for whom Xiao Yao is still his reason for living - whatever growth there was, is so minuscule as to be non-existence. Actual character growth would have been the opposite.
Any man or woman who would abandon their child for their partner are shi**y parent and human being and should seriously consider never having kids. So XY and Jing's act of abandonment at the end of the novel reflects very badly on their characters. It just tells me that these two have not achieved much growth and their relationship is an unhealthy co-dependent mess born out of their traumas.
Previously, TSJ wasn't able to be hard-hearted towards his grandmother, TSH or FFYY, even though his soft-heartedness hurt XY. XY was understanding of his position, and even said that she would have left him if he had been hard-hearted enough to kill FFYY in those circumstances ("Honestly, if Jing was like you and was hardhearted enough to decide on the plan to kill Fang Feng Yi Yang to end the engagement, then I would actually leave him.").
Framing Jing's failure to address the situation with Hou and his grandmother and FFYY as hardhearted vs. soft/kind-hearted is myopic and distorted. Xiao Yao's judgement here is not trustworthy and very much comes from her psychological deficiencies. Setting boundaries is not being hard-hearted. Calling people out on their bad behaviour is not hard-hearted. Holding people accountable for their wrong-doings is not hard-hearted. Only for someone like Xiao Yao with her abandonment issues, insecurity of her inherent worthiness and her sensitivity to rejection would fail to see these things or see them as negative. So instead of seeing his failure to address these issues for what it is - a glaring character weakness and or incompetence, in her warped thinking it's seen as positive because it is a confirmation that no-matter what she does, he will also be able to forgive her.
I'll also add that if TSJ had reclaimed his position as Tushan Clan leader until Tushan Zhen was old enough to take on that role, and therefore forced XY to stay in Dahuang and to live as the Tushan Clan leader's wife during that time, I feel like we would all blame him for being overly softhearted towards family again and not being considerate enough of XY's feelings.
I can't speak for other readers/viewers. For me, this is absolutely not the case. My ideal ending is for XY to head off by herself, and for Jing to stay behind and carry out his responsibility with the door open for their reconciliation down the road once they've both done their healing and maturing.
So much of my problem with the character of Tushan Jing is that in his pursuit of being with Xiao Yao, he discarded his honour, his dignity, his integrity and his sense of responsibility - his behaviour is that of a weak, selfish fool. Am I supposed to find such a person admirable? Am i supposed to root for him and XY's sick/unhealthy love? Maybe this stuff will float some people's boat, but it sure doesn't float mine. The most that I can do is muster up some pity for him.
Recent Discussions
-
My interpretation of final scene of KMLM1 second ago - Regina de Sá
-
Last Drama You Completed? #223 minutes ago - 73n5h1k015h173
-
What’s for dinner?35 minutes ago - Geminibaddie22
-
Compilation of Nuanced Exchanges and Monologues in the Drama45 minutes ago - cafedrama
-
Choi Seung Hyo's letter to himself in 10 years (English Trans)52 minutes ago - vylmen
-
check Live heat index52 minutes ago - kaddie001
-
Airing schedule1 hour ago - Bluerinez
Hottest Discussions
-
Yeah, no, guess11 hours ago
-
♥️Count to 7000000♥️4 hours ago
-
The ALPHABET Game [drama /movie version]3 hours ago
-
♡Last letter of a country / town game♡2 hours ago
-
***Count to 100,000***34 minutes ago
