Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

On the subject of Jing being manipulative and cunning.

 blabla100:

Honestly, there were quite a few. Off the top of my head I recall the scene from chapter 14, when XY got annoyed at him and told him she wants to take back her promise. He starts self-pitying himself about being a cripple and how FFY doesn't like him because of that. Was enough to make XY feel guilty. This is not him being genuine, this is him being manipulative, because Jing is not dumb, he is weak, but not naive, on the contrary, he is a fox, a cunning one. He mentioned quite a few times în the novel how he is aware of XY's kind nature and how he does not want to take any more advantage of that. That's the same manipulation his grandma used on him to get him to continue with FFY. It runs în the family, I guess.

Thank you @blabla100. I'm in the process of making sense of this character and getting a congruent interpretation of him. He came across as incongruent because his words/intentions don't match with his behaviour and there's a tendency for us/me to give him the benefit of the doubt (well, I used to anyway :-)). I think with this character, the thing that you need to do is look at his motivation and his actions. His number one goal is to be with Xiao Yao and his actions are all about reaching this goal and there's not much that he wouldn't do to achieve this objective.  As you observed, he may be weak-willed and cowardly, but he is cunning, so he knows to play on Xiao Yao's pity as he's aware that the foundation of their relationship is built on pity.

The fact that there is truth to what he's saying doesn't change that he's being manipulative. If anything, that makes it even more effective - he does have low self-esteem, and FFYY does treat him with contempt and it does make him feel bad - but done of that change the fact that he's using it to gain XY's pity. His actions are informed by his motives and intentions. 

Your observation that it runs in the family makes me think of @Kokuto's comments that Jing is a merchant prince. Jing and his family operate from the framework of profits and losses - they do things they will profit from. There were numerous instances in the novel where other characters commented on Jing’s ability to be two-faced – from Hou, to Xiao Yao, Feng Long and Xiang Liu - and I think this is the author way of telling us about his true character. I brushed them aside previously because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I think it matched up when you look at his actions - don't look at his words or what he intended to do - but what he actually does. 

The more that I think about it, the more I think that he's not all that different from his brother Hou. They both used a woman to shore up their sense of self-worth; Hou used FFYY to show that he's better than Jing and Jing used Xiao Yao because he lost his sense of self and worth following the torture by Hou. Jing is just more cunning and better at hiding his true nature compared to Hou. 

This character is seriously off putting when I think about him to deeply.

 HeadInTheClouds:

This is a good pick up. Such attention to details :-). Do you have any other similar examples of TH using this method to hide details?

 HeadInTheClouds:

9 hours ago
 Kokuto:
I often feel like I'm missing at least a quarter, maybe more, of what is going in this book, because I don't understand Mandarin.  lol

I wouldn't say that you missed a quarter of the story. The English translation of the book is very decent so you'll get a good chunk of the story - I think it's enough to get the story. But if you're obsessive and really want to dig into this whole "snake in the grass" writing things that TH had going on, then you'll need a magnifying glass :-). You really need to pay attention to every little details, and frankly that's not how most people read. 

Even the official Vietnamese version has many inaccuracies. If it wasn't for dedicated Vietnamese fans who knows Mandarin, I wouldn't realised how poor some of the Vietnamese translation were. 

In term of using words to hint some intention, I think the way Tong Hua using precious materials to describle Jing from WXL's point of view (in chapter 6) and then TH used 4 sentences from Classics of Poetry where the author took wine from luxury wine containers (golden jar and rhino-horn goblet) to avoid her longing is another example for the "snake in the grass and lines on dust". Both English and Vietnamese translations failed to include this detail. The translators just paraphased the words to describle Jing's noblity and handsome look. 

小六披衣起来，走到廊下，璟从花圃中站起，定定地看着他。

Xiao Liu put on a robe and walked out to the corridor. Jing stood up in the courtyard and looked steadily at him. 

明媚灿烂的阳光，勃勃生机的鲜花，还有一位君子，如金如锡、如圭如璧，一切都赏心悦目，令人欢喜。

The bright warm sun, the vibrant flowers, and there was a gentleman, such as gold, such as tin, such as jades; everything was pleasing to the eye and made people happy. 

小六走到璟面前，微笑着轻叹：“我姑酌彼金罍，维以不永怀！我姑酌彼兕觥，维以不永伤！”从死到生，让我姑且放纵一下吧，那些悲伤的事情就不想了 

Xiaoliu walked up to Jing, smiled and sighed softly: "I just poured wine from that golden bottle,  Drink it to avoid missing forever! I only pour wine into a cup made of rhino* horn, Drink it to avoid suffering forever" from death to life, let me indulge for a while and forget about those sad things. (Chapter 6)

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People may have difference opinion about whom WXL yearned in this case. However, for sure that she means to use Jing to deceive and mediate her feeling and thought. It's foreshaddow for her later behavior that whenever she got hurt by XL, she turned to Jing. 

Below is the full text of the poem and more detail can be found in the attached link (and some more related posts in page 392)

These 4 sentences were quoted from 2 poems in the Classic Poetry

卷耳 2  

陟彼崔嵬,                  Riding up to the rocky mountain
我马虺隤。             But the horse was too fatigued to ride upward.
我姑酌彼金櫑  ,    I just poured wine from that golden bottle,
维以不永怀。        Drink it to avoid missing forever

卷耳 3  

陟彼高冈，            I want to climb that high mountain
我马玄黄。           But the horse was too exhausted to move foward
我姑酌彼兕觥，I only pour wine into a cup made of rhino* horn
维以不永伤。      Drink it to avoid suffering forever

https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110123-xl-and-xy-story-and-romance-warning-spoilers?pid=2886105&page=391#p2886105

 blabla100:

He clearly said that he can't no longer stand watch to protect over XY, implying that that's what his purpose was all along. I belive that if he ever had other intentions, TH would have revealed it. I might be wrong here, but I am of the impression that that's what she does in all her epilogues, she reaveals things that weren't really a clear cut for the reader.

I don't see that implication at all.  Most the characters change as they go through the book, because events change.  Just because WXL said she wanted to stay in Qingshui Town at the beginning of the book, I don't think it means that was her intent all throughout the book and at the end.

Tong Hua did reveal that XL had other intentions.

I don't know about Tong Hua's other epilogues in other books.  But I don't really think it was unclear to readers (blind Jingers excepted) that XL was protecting XY throughout the book.  Dude gave up two of his lives to save her.  What may not have been apparent to some readers, was just how selfless XL's love was, and that was revealed in the epilogue.

 HeadInTheClouds:

Your stand: XL never intended to be with XY, only wanted to be a protector because he was committed to the Shen Nong's army and their demise was inevitable.

My stand: Agreed that XL was committed to Shen Nong and he will live and died with them. Disagreed that he didn't ever intended to be with XY because of Shen Nong's Army inevitable demise.

I also disagree that XL didn't intend to be with XY.   Though, I still don't see the Resistance Army's demise as inevitable, at the point that XL accepted the bug.

A big problem is that we see so little of the Resistance Army and Hong Jiang and their motivations.  I just don't see his army as all bent on dying for no reason at all.  I don't see Hong Jiang recruiting people with, "Join us, fight for nothing and plan on dying a loser."  I don't see families in the Central Plains supporting the Resistance Army all these centuries thinking they are going to lose and die for nothing.

Even XL's commitment to Hong Jiang wasn't inevitable.  The chances of Hong Jiang dying before XL were 100%, given his age and since they seemed to live in separate camps.  If XL were leading the Resistance Army would he have chosen the same suicidal path as his adoptive father?  Doubtful.

 HeadInTheClouds:

Despite that, he still came all the way to 5 Gods Mountain to see her. I don't believe that it was merely out of anger because he'd been lied to; he also wants to see how she feels about him and their potential relationship. Her refusal of the "kiss", the whole "you're not suitable to be in a girl's dream" told him loud and clear where she stands;that while she loves him, she doesn't want to acknowledge/accept it and she doesn't want to have any relationship with him.

I think there were a lot of reasons why he came to 5 Gods Mountain for XY -- some he knew and others he didn't.  But he was definitely motivated by hurt and anger.  What he got was unexpected, especially given what the Lovers Bug was telling him.

 HeadInTheClouds:

The other thing that Xiang Liu didn't count on, and this is the crucial one - even more important than the fact that XY was Wang Ji, sister to Cang Xuan - was that she found a better offer. She found someone who promised to always place her first, to never leave her. Compared to what Jing could offered; what Xiang Liu could give her was paltry - what's with her believing in the Shen Nong's Army inevitable demise. The minute that Xiao Yao accepted Jing's 15 years promise deal, she'd effectively killed her and Xiang Liu's nascent relationship.

Of course, I disagree that Jing was a better offer.  Does. Not. Compute.  lol

XL knew Jing was making promises he couldn't keep.  He knew FFYY, and had to have a pretty good idea how that was going to work out for Jing and XY.  He knew Jing and his house of merchants, and knew that wasn't going to work out for XY at all.

I don't think at that point he had given up entirely on XY -- cause he hauled out FFBB, someone who could definitely be a girl's dream -- and threw that at her.  Though, to be fair, I think even XL was winging things at this point.  It's not like he was all that familiar with being in love either.

@Kokuto

With regards to the name Ye Shi Qi. If I'm going be the Vietnamese translation then Ye means leaf. Shi means ten. And Qi means 7. Essentially his name means 17 leaves. Do you remember how WYL named him after counting the number of leaves on the branch?

As to wether or not there are deeper hidden meaning in the name. That's a different story. There maybe a play on words, homonyms etc. Maybe what you found out about how Qi sounds the same as words meaning to deceive is TH hints to his nature? 

I'm on mobile. Will respond more once I get to a computer 

 ZYHLJ:

@H19279

From the novel perspective, I agree with you. Xiang Liu in the novel knows everything:-). God, I really feel uncomfortable reading these plots about how Xiao Yao is obsessed with Jing. I feel very uncomfortable every time I see the intimate scenes between the two of them... I think Xiao Yao's taste in men alone makes her not good enough for Xiang Liu, just like you wouldn't want your son to fall in love with someone who thinks slugs are the cutest animals in the world...

Chuckling at the idea of Jing being like slugs. But, what had slugs ever done to you to deserve such slander? :-)

You're probably not the only one who feels uncomfortable with those intimate YaoJing scenes. It's partly my own values, but if I love someone (and XY loves XL - Lovers Bugs etc.) the thought of being physically intimate with another person makes me feel ill. My brain just refused to even think about it. I don't doubt that there are people out there who can do it and XY may be one of those people.  

The other thing was that XY was determined to pick Jing. Or maybe I should say that she was determined to pick someone who was offering to fulfil her deepest desire - always placed her first, never leaving her. And if she'd committed to picking Jing then she'd need to do her part - you can't marry someone without being physically intimate with them. It's a transaction after all - I give you A; in exchange, you give me B. XY is also the queen of willful ignorance and self-deception, she'll kêp on ignoring her feelings for XL so she can stick to her decision to pick Jing.

 HeadInTheClouds:

Better from XY's point of view :-). Given her "psychological deficiencies", XY's number one wish/hope is to have someone who will never leave her. And Jing promised her that. We don't have her issues so we look at Jing's 15 years offer, his engaged status and think:

Yes, PROMISED her that and failed to deliver.  Again.  I understand XY's 'deficiencies' led her to agree to Jing's 15 Year Promise, but where was her brain?  Before then, Jing had proven unreliable and had failed to remain with her.  Feng Long was a better choice, given he never let her down. 

So, yes, besides the engaged status, he had a history of not doing what he said, so....

And YES!  A long history of this:

 HeadInTheClouds:

The fact that XY took the offer should tell you how not right she is :-)

Heh ... I guess that is what I should take from XY's choice.

 HeadInTheClouds:

Yeah! It's not definitive when XL fully gave up on their being together. Although, I don't think he was aware of her and Jing's relationship/deal when they met outside of the Dragon Bone Prison. The drama had him finding out about it straight after. But in the novel, it was less clear. He probably deduced it during the time that he observed them together as FFB.

Yes, that's a good point.  The drama indicated that he felt betrayed or regretful enough upon seeing XY being carried off by Jing, at Dragonbone Prison, that the Lovers Bugs started to retaliate.  So, at the very least, he had to do some serious assessment of his feelings and plans after that meeting.

 HeadInTheClouds:

You're probably not the only one who feels uncomfortable with those intimate YaoJing scenes. It's partly my own values, but if I love someone (and XY loves XL - Lovers Bugs etc.) the thought of being physically intimate with another person makes me feel ill. My brain just refused to even think about it. I don't doubt that there are people out there who can do it and XY may be one of those people.

The other thing was that XY was determined to pick Jing. Or maybe I should say that she was determined to pick someone who was offering to fulfil her deepest desire - always placed her first, never leaving her. And if she'd committed to picking Jing then she'd need to do her part - you can't marry someone without being physically intimate with them. It's a transaction after all - I give you A; in exchange, you give me B. XY is also the queen of willful ignorance and self-deception, she'll kêp on ignoring her feelings for XL so she can stick to her decision to pick Jing.

Hmmmm.  This may explain exactly why XY refuses to openly acknowledge her love for XL, even to herself. 

I think a lot more men can separate love and sex, than women.

 HeadInTheClouds:

The more that I think about it, the more I think that he's not all that different from his brother Hou. They both used a woman to shore up their sense of self-worth; Hou used FFYY to show that he's better than Jing and Jing used Xiao Yao because he lost his sense of self and worth following the torture by Hou. Jing is just more cunning and better at hiding his true nature compared to Hou.

This character is seriously off putting when I think about him to deeply.

Wow.  I didn't make that connection at all.  Going to have think about that one.  Though, as you said, thinking deeply about Jing isn't always pleasant.

As far as manipulation ... I've a few thoughts on this.  Need to put them in order.  However, I don't think it necessarily needs conscious intent.  Like many behaviors, it's a learned one, that often is automatic.  This was how he learned to deal with situations to get what he wanted.