Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

 ZYHLJ:

Speaking of this, I feel that we have come to a fork in the road of history: there has always been a debate in academic circles about this, that is, "Is history shaped by objective laws, or is it written by specific people? Is it more influenced by accidental factors, or is it more affected by inevitable factors?"

I feel like this is a 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' argument?' 

 ZYHLJ:

But the key to this problem is that what Tong Hua believes in is that "trend of history has its own objective laws and individuals can only promote or hinder it to a limited extent."

To be honest, I've never seen this quote from Tong Hua before, so I'm not sure what it means, much less in relationship to the novel or drama.  Is Tong Hua a historian?  I didn't think so, given the flack she has gotten for her handling of historical elements.  I see the book more as an examination of human nature and love and trauma, set in a fantastical retelling of myth, rather than a story about national events and the inevitability of fate.

 ZYHLJ:

Throughout the story there is a fatalistic tone when she writes about Chenrong army.

Yes, I see this is as the foreshadowing of the end of the story that she has chosen.  Plus, they've lost their country and ruler, so they can't exactly be a bunch of happy nationalistic fighters.

 ZYHLJ:

Xiang Liu did his best to keep tens of thousands of Chenrong's remnant troops alive, and successfully allowed them to live for several hundred more years in the hope of restoring their country, but he did not think he could actually lead them to win the war.

XL is not leading the army.  Hong Jiang is.  Since we haven't seen the Invisible Hong Jiang, we don't really know what he's thinking, but, IIRC, someone said it had something to do with an oath.  Though, if you aren't in it to win, or for a greater good, then there really is no point in playing at this level.

But that's drifting off the point, which is -- at the start of the story, the Resistance Army and Haolin are in a stalemate with Xiyan and have been for centuries.  Xiyan does not have the ability to fight on two fronts, so there is no impending doom, as some folks suggest.  Quite the opposite, with Granddaddy Emperor getting older and his number of heirs getting fewer.  XL doesn't have to win with the Resistance Army.  They just have to continue the stalemate and wait.

But CX's rise to power changes that situation.  Cue incoming impending doom.

 ZYHLJ:

If I have to use a metaphor, he is like a father with a silly small child who has been diagnosed with a terminal illness that can no longer be treated, hiding all his despair from his child, taking him to live every remaining day happily and fully, and trying to prolong it, which is what it's all about to him.

I don't think that metaphor fits the situation.

 blabla100:

The theory that XL kept trying to pursue her over and over again after he got to know her fear of being abandoned doesn't sit well with me for different reasons and I honestly believe that people are just trying to fill the gaps by overcomplicating things just so it can fit the narrative, but the way I see it, things aren't that complicated.

For exemple, FFB being a playboy doesn't count, because he wasn't a playboy during the day, when it was her turn to spend time with him. The way I see it, it does count, because his womanizer persona defeats the purpose.

It's okay, since I think you are ignoring what doesn't fit your narrative, and holding XL to a double standard.  I mean, you want to count FFB's reputation for being a playboy, though he doesn't actually DO that against him, but you give Jing a pass for being married with a kid???  The idea of FFB pursuing a  relationship with XY after learning of her fear of being abandoned doesn't sit well with you, but Jing pursuing a relationship with XY after learning of her fears, and having actually abandoned XY like five or six times, PLUS begging for another chance when he thought he'd trashed another of her conditions with FFYY, some how makes him a better choice than FFB???

 nathsketch:

We keep saying she had no way of telling what his feelings for her were because she’s not privy to all the facts as we are, but maybe if she wasn’t so self absorbed, she, like any other woman, would have realized what was going on. All those transaction excuses were so lame and yet she bought them as a sort of confirmation bias. Everything he did and yet she was conveniently unaware.

She was aware. After the 37-year thing, she knew what transpired during those years together. Her internal dialogues when they went on their under-the-sea adventure after CX's wedding strongly suggested that she was aware that he had feelings for her. She just chose not to acknowledge it because she wasn't willing to face her feelings for him and the fact that choosing him would mean eventually losing him. Girl just couldn't cope with that. 

 nathsketch:

Imagine the selfishness of a person who only cares about something like this. Zero empathy with her wishes and demands. She acts like she was the only one who had a sob story.

XY's trauma had made her selfish. Too worried about gains and losses; can't cope with losing and feeling abandoned. If you read the novel carefully and look at XY's actions without the halo of the main female lead, you can see many instances of selfishness. The thing with FFYY, the entire situation with FL, her relationship with XL and Jing. Very me, me, me. Willingly used someone else for her own benefit. Don't give a shit if she is causing /pain to another person. She loves XL, but she was never truly willing to accept the reality of him, and never truly considered choosing him. Always leaving herself with another option. Zero inner strength when it comes to love. And no her trauma is not an excuse - that bullshit gets old after a while.

 nathsketch:

She wasn’t the first and she won’t be the last considering what she and good guy Jing will do to the Tushan kid in order to have their non-tragic ending.

Hers (and Jing's) selfishness shone through right here. These two are very similar if you think about it. Both are refusing to truly address their trauma - XY is just more aware of her issues - both are using something/someone else (each other) as a bandage to their issues. Both lack emotional courage; quite cowardly really - XY always hiding from her own feelings; refusing to face her heart. The two of them ending up together was very fitting. 

 nathsketch:

Another irony: giving his condition by the end of the story, Jing will probably expire way sooner than Xiao Yao hehehehe so not a suitable option after all. Roll credits

You can plan, but the universe decides :-). All of that weighing up the gains and losses, and she not only ended up with the most pathetic excuse of a man in Da Huang, but now his life span is probably severely compromised. One of his most "attractive" qualities that had her choosing him - poof! Gone with the wind. 

 nathsketch:

Xiao Yao is the problem. She's the one who would have to undergo a major change

 nathsketch:

"Bish, XL ain't the problem, you are".

Well, TH did tell us that XY's choices came from her "psychological deficiencies" aka, her trauma. So yes, her inability to overcome her issues was ultimately what prevented her from pursuing a relationship with XL. It was a choice on her part; she chose Jing and continued to return to him despite his constant floppage. She chose not to pick XL 'cause he wasn't willing to be a doormat like Jing and he couldn't/wouldn't promise to stay with her forever. She's entitled to choose as she sees fit, but let's not pretend that she didn't have choices. 

 nathsketch:

She was indeed tougher and less idiotic when she was a man, which is - and I keep repeating this - a very strange message to convey.

Someone elsewhere commented that she gained a skirt and lost her brain :-). Did I laugh? You bet ya :-)

@kokuto

"I mean, you want to count FFB's reputation for being a playboy, though he doesn't actually DO that against him, but you give Jing a pass for being married with a kid???"

That's very far from what I was trying to point out. You make it seem as if I'm throwing tomatoes as XL, while praising Jing undercover. If that's what it looked liked, than trust me when I say that's not the case. 

I am neither judging FFB's reputation nor am I defending Jing in any way. My focus was not a characterization of their characters, but an analysis of their intentions. If I named FFB a playboy was only to point as to why I don't believe he approached XY with the intention of pursuing her  / proving her he's suitable to enter a girls dream. Downgrading him per se was very very  far from me, I honestly didn't even think that that's what it might look like. 

"The idea of FFB pursuing a  relationship with XY after learning of her fear of being abandoned doesn't sit well with you," 

 It's not the idea that doesn't sit well with me, but XL having this intention. I don't believe that's what he aimed for, more like that's what a lot of people believe he did and this take on him got repetead so often that it almost became an undoubtable fact, but I, for one disagree with it. I don't believe that's what HE wanted for himself or for XY, not me, as a reader. It's not about what I wanted for them. If I say that I don't believe XL put himself as an option for XY to pick from, people are fast to assume that I believe XL wasn't worthy enough or that I am siding with Jing. Might be a language barrier as well though, but again, that's not the case. 

Anyway, going back to politics, I really want to see a line or even a word in the whole novel that points to or even insinuates XL's  being at least a tiny bit confident about the outcome of the war. You did a good analysis of the war based on your general and own values and knowledge, but I am curious to see something that pointed to that in the novel and not just assumptions based on reality.  Lyf is a work of fiction after all and the characters have their own bubble they live in. 

It's easy to say soldiers want to get married too, soldiers  enjoy life too, but that's just general speaking and it may or may not apply to this novel or to TH  characters's intentions. 

Regardless, while I don't believe XL tried to pursue a relationship with XY,  XL did enjoy life while it lasted, did have fun and he did love and was loved. But that doesn't automatically mean that he wanted more from XY or that he wanted to take things even forward with her.  You make it look as if he didn't have a happy day în his life and that's far from the truth. 

I keep remember things as I speak, another point that, I believe, fits the theory of him not aiming to pursue her, the mirror. I know that lots of people who belives the pursuing theory think that who do you most want to spend your life with was his last attempt at it, but he told her about erasing the memories she kept of him in the mirror ever since he first found out about them, which was under the 37 years underwater. Was this request intented to be a test too? 

The only thing I don't quite understand about the whole XL wished for vs. XL never wished for a future with XY is that scene where he throws down the bottle in anger.

What is that supposed to mean in this context?

 nathsketch:

The only thing I don't quite understand about the whole XL wished for vs. XL never wished for a future with XY is that scene where he throws down the bottle in anger.

What is that supposed to mean in this context?

In the drama, I felt this was the moment he felt betrayed. He always knew she was a liar, but he always hopes for her to be honest with him.  He wouldn't be this angry if he hadn't hoped for something.

 HeadInTheClouds:

:-)

lol!

I'm not surprised.  Jing was always one to let others do the work.  He rarely did anything he could pay someone else to do.

@Kokuto

I think Xiang Liu is not a person who particularly cares about greater good. As for winning the war, of course he is trying his best to seize every opportunity, but this is not inconsistent with his clear awareness of Chenrong army's situation and the size of their chances of winning. I don’t think Xiang Liu is a person who lets his optimism affect his objective judgment. On the contrary, I think he is a person who “does his best and prepares for the worst.”

In Mandarin, when we want to quote, we say: Tong Hua said/wrote (in somewhere) blablabla. If you are quoting the original words, add quotation marks; if you are just telling the meaning, leave them out :-)