windiaaa041293:

@AH

Doesn't that question just emphasize that there must be love if you want to plant it successfully?

and xiaoyao already had xl in her heart before the bug was planted.

Which question?

 blabla100:
"Xiao Yao kept talking and crying until gradually her words trailed off and she curled tightly in Jing’s arms and stared at the tall Phoenix Flower Tree. Blooms of red fell to the ground carried by the wind as if frames of each memory passing by, no matter how beautiful it would all pass with the wind.

Xiao Yao wearily closed her eyes “Jing, I want to leave!”

“Where shall we go?”

“To the ocean! The millions of miles of ocean and unending horizon, Xiang Liu said there were endless uninhabited and uncharted islands, perhaps we can find a beautiful island to call home.”"

Never thought much of it until windiaaa pointed it out, but I belive the red part is reffering to CX, since the phoenix tree îs their tree and the falling leafs are a metaphor for her closing the door on him forever. It can't be about XL, otherwise she wouldn't want to go to the ocean, it wouldn't make much sense that the memories she is reffering to to be about XL, since obviously she doesn't want to forget about him. I think because of XL's death XY did cut all ties with CX and as far as I'm concerned, în the end that did make him less important than XL. 

I missed this post before, but I agree with all of it. 

 AH :
then it would be impossible for the couple to have the same life fate (live happily ever after together?)

It means it's impossible for the couple to live or die together in term of time  (meaning at the same time).It doesn't mean they live together at the same place

 AH :
I don't think the Lovers' Bugs used by XY and XL are different than most other Lovers' Bugs. When I call into question whether both hosts need to have romantic love for each other in order for the bugs to not turn into Heartbreak Bugs, I'm calling that into question for all Lovers' Bugs, not just the particular pair used by XL and XY.

This is about to turn into a courtroom drama with the entire Lovers Bugs family being called to the stand on charges of misrepresentation, catfishing and fraud. In the red corner, we have the defendant - the Lovers Bugs family who insists that they have not misrepresented themselves and that the name means what it suggests. And in the blue corner, we have the prosecution who is casting doubt on the integrity of the name "Lovers Bugs", suggesting that maybe a name change is in order.

 Ladies and Gentlemen of the jurors, please cast your vote!! :-)

@AH 

I wrote a long reply to your post and lost it :-(. I think sometimes we get so caught up with the rebuttal of each point that the original "argument" gets lost. I'll just do a quick summary below of my thoughts with regard to our conversation around the situation with XY/CX's bugs connection in the context of willingness, romantic love, and turning into Heartbreak Bugs. Not saying that this is fully supported by the text.

My perspective is that both hosts need to have romantic love for one another and be willing for successful implantation. With XY and CX, the implantation was not successful because neither of them was truly willing - XY did it under duress, rather than enthusiastically. The distinction is slight but it's there for me. They were also not romantically in love.

In general, the willingness to accept the bugs is a tacit admission of having romantic love for one another on the part of the hosts. I see the Lovers Bugs as needing romantic love to survive, hence you cannot successfully plant the bugs unless both hosts are in love and therefore willing. With XY and CX, neither had romantic love/were willing, therefore unsuccessful implantation. The fact that the bugs were successfully implanted between XY and XL showed the willingness/existence of romantic love. On the flip side, if they were willing but didn't have romantic love, the Bugs wouldn't implant successfully either.

Once successfully implanted, a change of heart - i.e. one person falls out of love and they are "not lover" - will lead to the Lovers Bugs turning into Heartbreak Bugs. A change of love for me also means falling in love with another person. There is also the physical betrayal aspect; kissing OK, but sexual intercourse is a no-deal.

All these nitpicking and hairsplitting are just our attempt to come up with some sort of definitive guideline on the mechanisms of how the Lovers Bugs operate. We know that it's not really possible. Tong Hua herself probably couldn't even tell us how these operate fully :-)

Again, please take the post in the light-hearted, fun exchange that it is intended to be :-)

 H19279:

It means it's impossible for the couple to live or die together in term of time  (meaning at the same time).It doesn't mean they live together at the same place

Oh that's another good clarification, thank you!

So replacing the English subtitles translated from Mandarin with your translation of the Vietnamese subtitles:

XL: Will it work if there is no love between the couple?

OMLR: No, it won't. [After a moment's thought...] However, the magic is mysterious and unpredictable. Perhaps it's possible. Yet, even so, it will lead to endless troubles. The couple couldn't live together. They might be killed by the poisonous bugs. But even if it (aka the bug) is planted forcibly, there will be serious consequences.  It is not only impossible to have the same life fate, but also be bitten back by the bugs, which is life-threatening.

So it's more like... "If there was no love between the couple and the bug was still planted forcibly in the recipient, there will be serious consequences. Not only is it impossible that the couple's lives would be tied together (i.e., the bugs will not create a connection that will cause the couple to live together and die together) but it's even possible that one of them may be bitten by the bug and killed." ?

 HeadInTheClouds:
This is about to turn into a courtroom drama with the entire Lovers Bugs family being called to the stand on charges of misrepresentation, catfishing and fraud. In the red corner, we have the defendant - the Lovers Bugs family who insists that they have not misrepresented themselves and that the name means what it suggests. And in the blue corner, we have the prosecution who is casting doubt on the integrity of the name "Lovers Bugs", suggesting that maybe a name change is in order.

 Ladies and Gentlemen of the jurors, please cast your vote!! :-)

Lol! 

In my interpretation, the bugs are either always used by lovers (with mutual romantic love) or almost always used by lovers (simply with the possibility that they could potentially be used by a pair where the recipient had romantic love for the cultivator, but the cultivator only had strong platonic love for the recipient). So I think it's fine for the name to stay as-is. ^^

 HeadInTheClouds:
@AH

I wrote a long reply to your post and lost it :-(.

Ugh I hate when that happens. Such a shame!

 HeadInTheClouds:
Once successfully implanted, a change of heart - i.e. one person falls out of love and they are "not lover" - will lead to the Lovers Bugs turning into Heartbreak Bugs. A change of love for me also means falling in love with another person. There is also the physical betrayal aspect; kissing OK, but sexual intercourse is a no-deal.

Our interpretations here are very similar, except that I take the view that physical intimacy with another could occur without being a betrayal that resulted in the pair becoming "not lovers" and that would cause the Lovers' Bugs to become Heartbreak Bugs. 

I guess you take the view that XL/FFB did not sleep with the pretty dancer? ^^

 HeadInTheClouds:
All these nitpicking and hairsplitting are just our attempt to come up with some sort of definitive guideline on the mechanisms of how the Lovers Bugs operate. We know that it's not really possible. Tong Hua herself probably couldn't even tell us how these operate fully :-)

Agreed. It's about building and testing our respective headcanons rather than establishing irrefutable facts. 

 HeadInTheClouds:
Again, please take the post in the light-hearted, fun exchange that it is intended to be :-)

Always! ^^

 AH :
So it's more like... "If there was no love between the couple and the bug was still planted forcibly in the recipient, there will be serious consequences. Not only is it impossible that the couple's lives would be tied together (i.e., the bugs will not create a connection that will cause the couple to live together and die together) but it's even possible that one of them may bitten by the bug and killed." ?

Yes, that's the translation.

OMLR talked about the Lover Bugs as being planted by young ladies into their lover/the man they love in the hope of a lifetime of faithfulness and devotion (more literally, whole-heartedly devoted to each other). Once planted they will have shared fate and destiny, live and  died together (as in, if one die the other will die). If the bugs are forcibly planted, not only will it not be possible to share fate and destiny together, but it's possible for the bugs to bite back. 

I'm curious AH, are you watching this show in English? In my experience, due to the differences in culture and limitations in English, there are a lot of nuances missing in the English subtitles.

 AH :
So it's more like... "If there was no love between the couple and the bug was still planted forcibly in the recipient, there will be serious consequences. Not only is it impossible that the couple's lives would be tied together (i.e., the bugs will not create a connection that will cause the couple to live together and die together) but it's even possible that one of them may be bitten by the bug and killed." ?

It is 99% corresponding to the subtitle. In the last sentence , it is not clear if one of them or both may get bitten back, endangering one or both life

I pasted here the whole conversation translated back to English

"XL: Recently I encountered a very strange type of bug. It can cause pain to the bug recipient while the person who cultivates the bug is in pain. On the contrary, if the bug recipient is injured, the cultivator will not be affected. But cultivator cannot control the worm at will, and even cannot call it back.

LR: Is that person who cultivates the bug a lady?

XL: Why do you ask that? (Haha did XL still doubt that Xiao Liu is a man)

LR: If it's really a lady. It's very likely that it is the male and female bugs for her lover.

XL: Male and female bugs?

LR: Legend has said that there is a type of male and female bugs that is extremely difficult to raise. One male, one female, equal strength. The person who plants the bug cannot control the bug. It is typically raised by women in order to plant on their lovers, expecting "one heart, one mind" [1] (idiom means wholehearted committment)  and never betray each other. Once the bug is planted, you will have the same destiny, life and death will be tied together. So, it is called the lovers' bug,too.

XL: If two people don't have feelings for each other, is it possible to plant the bug?

LR: Oh, no, no, no. But the poison bug technique is very mysterious, difficult to grasp, and it may be possible to be planted. But, forced planting can lead to serious consequences. It is not only impossible to have the same fate (i.e, lives and death tied together), but also possible be bitten back by the bug, endangering life/lives (there is no subject in the whole conversation, so it is difficult to know if it one life or both lives, I tried to use neutral subject here).

XL: How to remove the bug?

LR: The planting requires affection, and the removal requires affection, too. If the bug has not planted for long, then while it has not yet stabilized its roots, it is possible to transfer the bug to another person. But that person must have affection. Something like a lovers' bug, not only demands life but also demands heart. You have nine lives but only one heart, once you give it away you can't get it back"

[1] One heart, one mind: means wholehearted-ness, love commitment

@AH

Maybe you are right about Voodoo King's shock, I don't know, perhaps he really finds it hard to belive that someone who's not into a romantic relationship with the host would agree to take the bug in. Or maybe he didn't want to disclose to Jing that his gf loves someone else other than him, who knows. The point is that IMO"lovers bugs" is the definition to the highest level of love, so regardless if XY loves Jing romantically or not, I don't belive her feelings are as deep for him as they are for XL. 

There is no question in my mind that XY fell  în love with XL before the implantation of the bugs, after it's out of the question since the bugs didn't turn on them. XL said he was heart and soul willing, but who's to say that XY didn't share his feelings too, either she was aware of that at that time or not, altough I belive she was. The pictures she took of him before and after is IMO a good evidence of that. Why should I belive that it's easier for someone like XL to fell deeply for XY than it is for her to fall for him? They were so alike, both had their own issues, yet their hearts were basically the same, they were each other's snake. So if we are to belive that XL feel deeply for XY during their time spent în QS Town,  there is no doubt în my mind that that's exactly what happened to XY too. 

As I said before, I find XY-XL-Jing very similar to XY-CX-ANian.  In the absence of XY, CX too cared and pampered A-Nian and for sure she meant a lot to him, but the love he has for her is different than the love he has for XY.  He doesn't love her romantically, but he did end up marrying her, just as XY ended up with Jing. Difference is their main purpose în life was different, CX wanted to make the world a better place and XY wanted someone who will never abandon her. They both got what they wanted at the cost of losing the loved one. 

Despite the scenes you posted of XY missing and crying over Jing, honestly IMO that doesn't actually prove that she loved him romantically or on the same level as she loved XL. The missing, the crying, the longing... she did all that over CX too, but she never loved him in THAT special way.  I remember that dream she had, when she saw Jing holding the baby, she ran towards the ocean, where she could swim freely (and I emphasize on freely), FFBei was there, but when she ran towards him , he suddenly transformed into XL, thus making her go back crying. This dream really did stuck with me, because even though she saw Jing holding the baby, she had no reaction towards him, instead she ended up crying over FFBei becoming the coldish "it's all a transaction" XL. 

 AH :
In my interpretation, the bugs are either always used by lovers (with mutual romantic love) or almost always used by lovers (simply with the possibility that they could potentially be used by a pair where the recipient had romantic love for the cultivator, but the cultivator only had strong platonic love for the recipient). So I think it's fine for the name to stay as-is. ^^

I think this is where we most differed in our interpretation/perception which has a cascading effect down the line, IMO. For me, it doesn't really make sense for the cultivator to only have strong platonic love for the recipient.

This is of course based on my subjective take. If I was to go through all this trouble, no way would I wasted it on a platonic love. Not to mention, I wouldn't want to tie my life to someone that I only have platonic love for. It would have to be with someone I'm madly, desperately in love with for me to go to such extreme. I'm simply too lazy otherwise :-)

It's possible for such a cultivator, but nor probable, IMO.


 AH :
Our interpretations here are very similar, except that I take the view that physical intimacy with another could occur without being a betrayal that resulted in the pair becoming "not lovers" and that would cause the Lovers' Bugs to become Heartbreak Bugs.

Just to clarify. So you think that physical intimacy - no matter the extend - will not turn the Lovers Bugs into Heartbreak Bugs?

 AH :
I guess you take the view that XL/FFB did not sleep with the pretty dancer? ^^

What did I miss?

Ok, I checked. Lol! Of course, you guys discussed XL's sex-life while I'm not around to participate (*peeve* :-)) My opinion is that XL is absolutely not a virgin and based on my interpretation of the Lovers Bugs, FFB did not have sex with the pretty dancer. That's not to say that other things couldn't have happened ;-)

If I don't take into account the Lovers Bugs, then he could have had. And why wouldn't he? There are no commitments or promises between him and XY, and she is running around getting up to all kinds of "situations" with Jing. 

Speaking of this matter. I know that the leak scripts show XL's experiencing XY's "enjoyment" during these moments. It's going to be hard to watch. What's the drama team's purpose for showing us this? To torture XL and his fans? To push XiaoJing as the OTP? It doesn't actually paint XY in a flattering light, IMO. She just comes across as thoughtless and heartless. 

 AH :
Agreed. It's about building and testing our respective headcanons rather than establishing irrefutable facts.

Yup. And Tong Hua is laughing all the way to the bank :-)

Interlude just to share my pain: I was happily rereading a section of the novel when suddenly....


Chapter 34

Hou suddenly asked “Do you have time tomorrow? Tomorrow a s.h.i.+pment of raw gems will arrive, are you interested in seeing what it looks like in its original state?” 

 Xiao Yao c.o.c.ked her head and stared at him before smiling and laying it out in the open “You must know that Jing likes me.” 

 Hou smiled back and decided to take a step back in his approach “If you’ve decided to marry him then I take back what I just said.” 

Xiao Yao smiled “Fang Feng Bei taught me archery and died in a shower of arrows. If you’re not afraid of death then I don’t mind going with you to see the raw gems.”


So now, my evening is ruined (so much for the foreshadowing writing technique!).

Sorry, back to the Lover's bug.

I haven't read all this, but I wanted to post this observation before I forget it or things move past it.

XY was imprisoned and tortured and depowered by a nine tailed fox, and yet chooses as her life companion a nine tailed fox who imprisoned and tortured and depowered her.

XY states she is not willing to share, and will only marry someone who won't have other wives or concubines in their life.  Yet, she is the one with multiple men in her life, and can't put only one first, and romantically loves two men.

XY states she wants a safe place to call home, but all her choices ensure she has no safe place to call home, except the one XL gives her.

 Kokuto:

I haven't read all this, but I wanted to post this observation before I forget it or things move past it.

XY was imprisoned and tortured and depowered by a nine tailed fox, and yet chooses as her life companion a nine tailed fox who imprisoned and tortured and depowered her.

XY states she is not willing to share, and will only marry someone who won't have other wives or concubines in their life.  Yet, she is the one with multiple men in her life, and can't put only one first, and romantically loves two men.

XY states she wants a safe place to call home, but all her choices ensure she has no safe place to call home, except the one XL gives her.

Is this a Xiao Yao roasting session? Should I bring my matches and my marshmallows?

LOVE IT.

 HeadInTheClouds:
Yes, that's the translation.

OMLR talked about the Lover Bugs as being planted by young ladies into their lover/the man they love in the hope of a lifetime of faithfulness and devotion (more literally, whole-heartedly devoted to each other). Once planted they will have shared fate and destiny, live and  died together (as in, if one die the other will die). If the bugs are forcibly planted, not only will it not be possible to share fate and destiny together, but it's possible for the bugs to bite back. 

Thank you!

 HeadInTheClouds:
I'm curious AH, are you watching this show in English? In my experience, due to the differences in culture and limitations in English, there are a lot of nuances missing in the English subtitles.

Yes, I am relying on the English subtitles for the drama, which are definitely far from perfect. So I truly appreciate any insights / clarifications provided by Mandarin speakers or from speakers of languages that are much closer to Mandarin (in terms of roots and cultural context). They are incredibly helpful!

 H19279:
It is 99% corresponding to the subtitle. In the last sentence , it is not clear if one of them or both may get bitten back, endangering one or both life

I pasted here the whole conversation translated back to English

Thank you so much for this!

 nathsketch:

Is this a Xiao Yao roasting session? Should I bring my matches and my marshmallows?

LOVE IT.

LOL!  No, the other thread is for roasting. ;p

It's an observation ... with implications.  She's an unreliable narrator / character.  There are contradictions and parallels.  As windiaaa041293 pointed out in that forward from Tong Hua, "Is what we can see with our naked eyes the truth?"