Moreover, XY told him that she has had the bugs for 70 years already, so "If he is not your lover, than how did you plant the bug in him" makes no sense giving the time frame, it happened 70 years ago!blabla100:
I think it makes sense. In any case, that is the question that the Voodoo King asks.
His disbelief is not because he finds it impossible to find a man who would willingly accept the Lovers Bug without being în a dedicated romantic relationship with the cultivator, since that's how you interpret the "he stared în shock at XY" but because IMO he knows that the pair of bugs can't possible romantically love 2 people at the same time, without being seen as a betrayal of the heart.
He wasn't confused or conflicted, he was shocked that the man sitting next to XY is her "beloved", giving that somebody else has the bug.
The Voodoo King was initially shocked when he found out that TSJ was not the recipient of XY's bug. Then, after he confirmed that XY's bug was really a Lovers' Bug, his brows were furrowed and later he was perplexed (similar to being confused).
The Voodoo King was shocked when he initially found out that the person with XY, the person she brought with her to meet with him in order to discuss the Lovers' Bug and the person who (according to the Voodoo King's assessment) was clearly her beloved, was not the recipient of her bug. Of course the Voodoo King expected that man (TSJ) to be the recipient of XY's bug, and I'm not surprised that the Voodoo King was shocked when he found out that TSJ wasn't the recipient.
Since he (TSJ) was not the recipient, the Voodoo King also realized that XY somehow successfully planted the bug in another man. But according to what the Voodoo King knows, that would mean that XY must have convinced another man who loved her (XL) to willingly accept the bug. But she clearly hadn't pledged to be with that other man (XL) for life. Afterall, here she was with a different beloved (TSJ), and yet the recipient (XL) was still alive and still loved XY since the bugs were still Lovers' Bugs. So it's not surprising that the Voodoo King would wonder how XY managed to convince that other man (XL) to willingly accept the bug (which entailed tying his life to hers forever). Or if she didn't convince him, then how did she manage to successfully plant the bug in him? According to what the Voodoo King knows, it should be impossible to successfully plant the bug in someone who did not willingly accept it.
XY doesn't provide a good explanation for how she successfully planted the bug in the other man, so the Voodoo King remains perplexed. But since it would not be appropriate to discuss it further in front of TSJ, he drops the subject.
-----
Chapter 37:
“All living things that have a benefit must also carry a harm. The greater the benefit then the greater the potential for harm. The Lover’s Bug is exactly that. It can lead two people to be connected in life and emotions but it is just like a pair of lovers in love with each other. It is temperamental and hard to control. If the Lover’s Bugs turn on each other then both people will die. Which is why the Lover’s Bug also has another name: the Heartbreak Bug.”
Jing stared in dismay at Xiao Yao who quickly said, “It can’t be as scary as he makes it out to be. It’s been over seventy years and I’m still just fine.”
The Voodoo King’s expression changed as he stared at Jing, “You’re not the man the other bug is planted in?”
“No.”
The Voodoo King stared in shock at Xiao Yao. “Can I feel the bug in you?”
Xiao Yao nodded.
The Voodoo King didn’t move so he was likely using a bug inside of himself to sense. He furrowed his brows and murmured, “It really is a Lover’s Bug! But how is this possible? ‘Lovers who raise the bug produce the Lover’s Bug, Not Lovers who raise the bug produce the Heartbreak Bug.’ The Lover’s Bug is different than other voodoo bugs and absolutely requires the couple to willingly accept the bug for it to be successfully planted. If the man you successfully planted the other bug in is not your lover, then how did you plant it in him?”
Xiao Yao said, “You might not know as much as your ancestors, the bug could be more multi-faceted and evolving in ways beyond your understanding.”
The Voodoo King was still perplexed. But it was clear that the young man sitting beside Xiao Yao was clearly her beloved so the rest of what he wanted to say wasn’t suitable for discussing at this time. He smoothed things over.
Honestly windiaaa's explaination makes sense to me, XY liked Jing and loved XL. All the blushing and stuff seems something that happens in the presence of a crush, and not something that's common for someone that already has a deep loving relationship.
Under this interpretation, are you saying that XY's feelings for TSJ were just "I like him" on the level of a crush and that those feelings never amounted to romantic love, because if they did then the Lovers' Bugs would have turned into Heartbreak Bugs and killed XL and XY?
If so, that assumes that the feelings that XY had for XL at the very beginning when she first transferred the bug from CX to XL were already strong enough to be considered the type of "romantic love" that would allow the bugs to become Lovers' Bugs, and yet over the next 100+ years XY's feelings for TSJ never rose to the level where they could also be considered "romantic love". That seems like a very big assumption. While I do think that XY had some level of love in her heart for XL at the time that the bug was transferred from CX to XL in chapter 7, I don't think there's evidence to support the position that those initial feelings were stronger and deeper than the feelings that XY had for TSJ at any point later on in the story up until XL broke the bug connection in chapter 48.
And if this interpretation were correct, then how could XL constantly push XY to be with TSJ, knowing that if her feelings for TSJ ever evolved from just "liking" him to romantic love, then their bugs would turn into Heartbreak Bugs and kill them both?
windiaaa041293:
For episode 19, maybe it could be interpreted like this.
Now, who wouldn't be jealous seeing your girlfriend hanging out with someone else?
Maybe at that time XL felt jealous, so he felt pain in his heart, then he tried to suppress the pain, so that Xy didn't find out.
But that doesn't mean the bug turns into a heartbroken bug. Because even until the end we know that it never happened.and also not because XY's heart changed, because that never happened.
XL only suppressed his heartache because of jealousy, not suppressed his pain because the bug turned into heartbreak. Because that never happened.
isn't it clear they love each other from start to finish?
I agree that the bugs obviously did not turn into Heartbreak Bugs in that scene in episode 19.
But something happened with the bugs. It was more than just XL feeling something himself (e.g., jealousy). The bugs glowed and seemed to cause XL to feel pain in his heart, and he had to use his power to suppress them.
That scene also includes a flashback to two sets of dialogue.
First, XL sees TSJ carrying XY and starts to move towards them, but he stops himself when he seems to recall XY's words from earlier in the episode, which are replayed over the scene: "I'm still scared that I might accidentally let you into my dreams. You are in no way the type to be in a girl's dream. This is probably more terrifying than death."
Then XL starts to feel pain and his heart glows, indicating that his pain is connected to the love poisonous bugs. XL raises his hand and uses his power to suppress his bug while the following dialogue from Old Man Li Rong plays over the scene: "The love poisonous bug not only wants your life but also wants your heart. You have nine lives, but you only have one heart. [skipping back to a different part of the original dialogue] Even so, there would be endless trouble. The couple couldn't live together. They might be killed by the poisonous bugs."
The original dialogue between XL and Old Man Li Rong in episode 12 (which is a flashback to the second half of a conversation that XL had with Old Man Li Rong in episode 11) went as follows:
OMLR: "They are extremely difficult to raise. One bug is male and one bug is female. If the cultivator and recipient are equal in power, the cultivator cannot control the poisonous bug. Mostly, women raise them for their lovers, hoping for eternal and loyal love. Once planted, the couple will live and die together. So they are also called love poisonous bugs."
XL: Will it work if there is no love between the couple?
OMLR: No, it won't. [After a moment's thought...] However, the magic is mysterious and unpredictable. Perhaps it's possible. Yet, even so, it will lead to endless troubles. The couple couldn't live together. They might be killed by the poisonous bugs.
XL: How to remove it?
OMLR: The planting of it relies on affection, and so does the removal of it. If it hasn't been planted for long, and it's not yet stable, it could possibly be transferred to another person. But this person must have love in his heart. The love poisonous bug demands not only your life but also your heart. You have nine lives, but you only have one heart. Once you give your heart, you can never take it back.
-----
It would be nice to know if these subtitles have been translated accurately. Especially the part about the couple (with no love between them) not being able to live together. Which I find confusing.
XL asked about a situation where there was no love between the couple that shared the poisonous bug connection. In his answer, was Old Man Li Rong saying that such a couple couldn't live together, because if they did, then they might be killed by the bugs? Or was he saying that if such a couple didn't live together, then that might cause the bugs to kill them?
My take is that the PLB is there to confirm yes XY does in deed love XL despite everything and since the start and never stopped.MengXiang:
I agree that this is likely the original and primary purpose of the bugs.
I think the bugs may be over analysed. I know some writers plan out mechanics in books before writing but my understanding is that TH let the characters write themselves. Anyone know about TH writing habits.
My take is that the PLB is there to confirm yes XY does in deed love XL despite everything and since the start and never stopped. It's not to reflect on XY / XJ relationship or not for drawing comparison between who is more.
The reason why I say I don't think she thought it through is also because there are plot holes in the bugs. Like the ones raised about intimacy betrayal and AH comment below. He pushed her to not like him, wouldn't that turn them into Heartbreak Bugs and kill them both.
It's very possible, as others have commented, that our discussions in this thread might be over-thinking the bugs. We might be putting even more thought into it than Tong Hua herself. But for my own purposes, I'm satisfied that my interpretation of the bugs doesn't create major plot holes. In my interpretation, XL had to carefully balance pushing XY away enough to protect her from the impact of his death and to allow her to have a happy ending, while not pushing her away so hard that it completely eliminated any love she had left for him in her heart. And I think he succeeded in threading that needle.
"Everything is just a line of grass and snakes, stretching for thousands of miles."
Note: Tonghua has already hinted at the correct way for readers to open this book in the introduction.
Thanks @windiaaa041293, that's so enlighting !
Is there more articles about the writting techniques used by Tong Hua? I need to understand what that "grass snake gray line technique" is all about!
I read somewhere that TH not only got her inspiration from "Dream of the Red Chamber", but also from "The Spring and Autumn Annals"? But it's very difficult to find analysis of the writing style of these two works...
@AH
"The Voodoo King was still perplexed. But it was clear that the young man sitting beside Xiao Yao was clearly her beloved so the rest of what he wanted to say wasn’t suitable for discussing at this time. He smoothed things over “Miss you are likely right, the bug inside of you is different than other bugs. Likely Miss and the other man have very unique bodily compositions.”
IMO perplex here means disbelief în regards to XY's explaination, not disbelief în regards to the way he believes the bugs work.
I don't know if Koala's translation perfectly reflects the original text, but in the translation "still perplexed" means that the Voodoo King being perplexed was not just a state that resulted from the immediately preceding comment. It means that the Voodoo King being perplexed was a state that continued from earlier in the conversation. I read it as implying that XY's comment failed to resolve his earlier confusion.
He wanted to say more, but he ended the discussion because Jing was there. If XY's really managed to shake his confidence on his knowledge about the bugs, why would he think that there's more that he wants to tell her and what do you believe that "more" would have been? Personally I belive that what he wanted to say was "you got it wrong, I know how the bugs work and you being în love with someone else other than the recipient of the bug makes no sense"
For this part:
Xiao Yao said, “You might not know as much as your ancestors, the bug could be more multi-faceted and evolving in ways beyond your understanding.”
The Voodoo King was still perplexed. But it was clear that the young man sitting beside Xiao Yao was clearly her beloved so the rest of what he wanted to say wasn’t suitable for discussing at this time. He smoothed things over.
Since XY said that the Voodoo King's understanding of the bugs might be less than his ancestors' understanding of the bugs, I imagine the Voodoo King could have wanted to say something like:
"As I said, the Lover's Bugs are very rare. So I have only seen them planted a handful of times. But my ancestors that created the Lovers' Bug voodoo spell (and my ancestor who recorded that spell in the Jui Li Poison Manual) have passed their knowledge down through the generations. According to their teaching, the Lovers' Bugs definitely require mutual love and a Lovers' Bug can only be successfully planted in a recipient if the recipient willingly accepts the bug."
Then the Voodoo King would wait for XY's response. Even if TSJ wasn't there, I think XY would deny that she loved XL and that XL loved her. She always obstinately avoided admitting that fact.
The Voodoo King might want to ask XY again how she was able to plant the bug in XL and other details that might explain how the bugs remained Lovers' Bugs even after she entered a relationship with TSJ (a fact that wouldn't add up for the Voodoo King not because the bugs would turn into Heartbreak Bugs if XY had romantic love for more than one person, but because XY openly having a romantic relationship with a man other than the recipient (i.e., openly having a romantic relationship with TSJ) would normally either cause the love that she felt for the recipient (XL) or the love that the recipient (XL) felt for her, to falter, which would cause the Lovers' Bugs to turn into Heartbreak Bugs)), but I don't think he'd be able to get that far in the conversation due to XY's denial about her feelings and XL's feelings.
It's tricky to explain, unfortunatelly my english îs not that good for what I have în mind.
I appreciate you discussing this topic in detail in your second language! I would definitely not be able to have this type of nuanced discussion in my second language.
I belive XL knew that as long as he is alive, XY won't be able to open her heart to let Jing in completely
XY opening her heart to TSJ "completely" seems like a different threshold than XY never having any romantic love for TSJ and only ever having a feeling of liking him, like a crush.
I belive XL knew that as long as he is alive, XY won't be able to open her heart to let Jing in completely, he knew that her biggest wish is to have someone to accompany her through life, but life companionship doesn't always equals deep love or even love for that matter and I belive that's the direction of XL's push. I belive XY allowed Jing to enter her life, not her heart.
There are a few passages in the novel that suggest that XY tried to control her feelings for TSJ and failed. That she did let him into her heart and could not erase him from her heart after they parted. I generally try to avoid posting too many TSJ scenes in this thread, but...
-----
Chapter 22:
Xiao Yao asked, “Why would Jing choose to die? Why is he so sad he doesn’t want to live anymore?”
Jing Ye glared at Xiao Yao. “How could Princess not know?”
“Why should I know?”
“When Prince Zhuan Xu arrived to save Princess, they saw Master holding Princess and you had already died. The entire maze was engulfed in flames and Master could break mazes and ought to be able to leave any maze but instead he was holding Princess and sitting inside waiting for death.” Jing Ye cried “Master would rather be burned to death then leave the already dead you. Princess, how can you not know Master’s heart? He wants to be with you whether in life or in death!”
Xiao Yao turned to look at Jing and murmured, “You really are so broken over me that you are seeking death?”
Xiao Yao felt the shell around her heart shatter completely, all those threads that she tried to cut all those times finally weaved together into a web at last.
-----
Chapter 26:
Xiao Yao hadn’t seen Jing in over a year and seeing him like this, Xiao Yao maintained her smile and quietly stood next to the Xi Ling clan leader. She remembered in the ocean when he let his hair loose, the stirring in her heart. She remembered twining his hair around her fingers, each strand was a longing. Everything felt like yesterday but it was already black hair turned white and all longing severed.
Xiao Yao felt her heart was being clawed at by a large hand, so painful it was like being ripped apart.
...
“You no longer have any relationship with Jing. Feng Long tested me on whether you would consider him.”
“What?” Xiao Yao was stunned for a moment. “Even though Jing is married, I have no intention at this time of considering another man.”
Zhuan Xu was silent and then said, “You treated Jing as special, but he didn’t stay true……he will regret it one day!”
Xiao Yao looked saddened. “What good will his regret bring me? Since we can’t be together, better to forget it completely and go our separate ways!”
“You still haven’t forgotten him?”
Xiao Yao wanted to say, “I forgot him!” but she couldn’t lie to herself. Since losing Jing she never slept through the night again.
She missed him! Her longing for Jing exceeded anything that anyone could have imagined, and it even shocked herself.
She thought she controlled everything so perfectly. Even if Jing left she could candidly accept it. But when it happened she realized that she thought too highly of herself. She could use her willpower to handle everything and control her behavior so she wasn’t angry, wasn’t upset, didn’t act out of turn, didn’t go see him, continued living as if nothing was the matter. But every night she couldn’t control her missing him.
One time she dreamed about Jing kissing her and it was as sweet as dew in her dream, but when she woke it was only bitterness in her mouth, even drinking honey water it turned bitter.
Xiao Yao didn’t want to remember and would rather not open her eyes and keep it tightly shut. All she could see would be them together and the memory was so clear and the warmth was still lingering on her lips. But everything was gone.
Every time she thought of him she would rather never see him or hear him speak. Everything about him no longer had anything to do with her. His presence would no longer be in her life. That kind of pain made Xiao Yao feel like she would rather live in a dream and never wake up.
Xiao Yao said in a low voice, “I thought everything was under my control, but in truth feelings cannot be controlled.”
-----
Chapter 42:
Xiao Yao asked, “Miao Pu, how long do you think before I’m not heartbroken?”
Miao Pu answered, “Like a severe injury, it will hurt a lot initially, and slowly the wound will scab and scar, and slowly it won’t hurt as much.”
Xiao Yao looked down. She had been injured before and knew how long it took to stop hurting. To stop hurting she had to forget! But time was like sand, it would cover up everything in the heart.
But——
Jing, I don’t want to!
If the price to pay to not hurt is to forget you, then I would rather be in pain always so that you can live in my heart, until my life reaches its conclusion.
I’ve already put on my wedding dress and said my vows to the moon. From tonight forward, I am your wife!
-----
Chapter 43:
Xiao Yao didn’t need the fish ruby to breathe underwater but she didn’t want others to know of her body’s new ability and she kept the fish ruby on her because it was a gift from Jing. Right now Xiao Yao felt this ache in her heart as she sank into the water and prayed: heavens, you can do anything cruel to me but please let Jing be alive even if he’s gravely injured or crippled.
-----
Chapter 47:
“I want to know the truth. Zhuan Xu, did you send people to help Tu Shan Hou?”
Zhuan Xu wanted to deny it but his pride wouldn’t allow him to, so he said after a pause, “It was me!”
“It was you!” Xiao Yao thought she had experienced every type of pain in the world, but who knew the most painful thing in the world was the person you love taking a knife and carving out your heart. Every part of Xiao Yao hurt, her insides, her bones, her skin, her head, none of the pain she experienced in the past could hold a candle to this. She was in such pain she wanted to die. Xiao Yao closed her eyes, unable to look at Zhuan Xu. “Get out!”
@AHH19279:
Yet, even so, it will lead to endless troubles. The couple couldn't live together. They might be killed by the poisonous bugs.
In the drama, the subtittles in Vietnamese was translated as following
In the case of 2 people have no affection with each other .....
But even if it (aka the bug) is planted forcibly, there will be serious consequences. It is not only impossible to have the same life fate, but also be bitten back by the bugs, which is life-threatening
That's very interesting. Thank you H19279!
So it sounds like this is saying that, if there is no love between the couple and the bug is forcefully planted anyway, then it would be impossible for the couple to have the same life fate (live happily ever after together?) and one or both of them would be bitten by the bugs, which could potentially kill the one who is bitten?
And I guess the dialogue plays over the scene in episode 19 in the same way, so you would hear, "It is not only impossible to have the same life fate, but also be bitten back by the bugs, which is life-threatening" while XL was shown to be in pain and while the bugs were glowing?
That's troubling. It seems like both the English and Vietnamese subtitles for that scene in episode 19 are suggesting that there wasn't love between XY and XL and so the bugs were biting XL and threatening his life. :/
P/s: In the beginning I translated is as "Not only do they not have the same life fate, but they can also be bitten back by the bug"
However, all the sentences in that conversation have no subject. So it is not clear if it's applied to both partners or only one of them. That is why I changed the sentence as above. In addtion, The phrase they do not have the same life fate can be understood as they do not share/connect lives together
Thank you for the extra clarification! ^^
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