Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

 blabla100:

"Xiao Yao kept talking and crying until gradually her words trailed off and she curled tightly in Jing’s arms and stared at the tall Phoenix Flower Tree. Blooms of red fell to the ground carried by the wind as if frames of each memory passing by, no matter how beautiful it would all pass with the wind.

Xiao Yao wearily closed her eyes “Jing, I want to leave!”

“Where shall we go?”

“To the ocean! The millions of miles of ocean and unending horizon, Xiang Liu said there were endless uninhabited and uncharted islands, perhaps we can find a beautiful island to call home.”"

Never thought much of it until windiaaa pointed it out, but I belive the red part is reffering to CX, since the phoenix tree îs their tree and the falling leafs are a metaphor for her closing the door on him forever. It can't be about XL, otherwise she wouldn't want to go to the ocean, it wouldn't make much sense that the memories she is reffering to to be about XL, since obviously she doesn't want to forget about him. I think because of XL's death XY did cut all ties with CX and as far as I'm concerned, în the end that did make him less important than XL. 

I missed this post before, but I agree with all of it. 

 AH :

I don't think the Lovers' Bugs used by XY and XL are different than most other Lovers' Bugs. When I call into question whether both hosts need to have romantic love for each other in order for the bugs to not turn into Heartbreak Bugs, I'm calling that into question for all Lovers' Bugs, not just the particular pair used by XL and XY.

This is about to turn into a courtroom drama with the entire Lovers Bugs family being called to the stand on charges of misrepresentation, catfishing and fraud. In the red corner, we have the defendant - the Lovers Bugs family who insists that they have not misrepresented themselves and that the name means what it suggests. And in the blue corner, we have the prosecution who is casting doubt on the integrity of the name "Lovers Bugs", suggesting that maybe a name change is in order.

 Ladies and Gentlemen of the jurors, please cast your vote!! :-)

@AH 

I wrote a long reply to your post and lost it :-(. I think sometimes we get so caught up with the rebuttal of each point that the original "argument" gets lost. I'll just do a quick summary below of my thoughts with regard to our conversation around the situation with XY/CX's bugs connection in the context of willingness, romantic love, and turning into Heartbreak Bugs. Not saying that this is fully supported by the text.

My perspective is that both hosts need to have romantic love for one another and be willing for successful implantation. With XY and CX, the implantation was not successful because neither of them was truly willing - XY did it under duress, rather than enthusiastically. The distinction is slight but it's there for me. They were also not romantically in love.

In general, the willingness to accept the bugs is a tacit admission of having romantic love for one another on the part of the hosts. I see the Lovers Bugs as needing romantic love to survive, hence you cannot successfully plant the bugs unless both hosts are in love and therefore willing. With XY and CX, neither had romantic love/were willing, therefore unsuccessful implantation. The fact that the bugs were successfully implanted between XY and XL showed the willingness/existence of romantic love. On the flip side, if they were willing but didn't have romantic love, the Bugs wouldn't implant successfully either.

Once successfully implanted, a change of heart - i.e. one person falls out of love and they are "not lover" - will lead to the Lovers Bugs turning into Heartbreak Bugs. A change of love for me also means falling in love with another person. There is also the physical betrayal aspect; kissing OK, but sexual intercourse is a no-deal.

All these nitpicking and hairsplitting are just our attempt to come up with some sort of definitive guideline on the mechanisms of how the Lovers Bugs operate. We know that it's not really possible. Tong Hua herself probably couldn't even tell us how these operate fully :-)

Again, please take the post in the light-hearted, fun exchange that it is intended to be :-)

 HeadInTheClouds:

This is about to turn into a courtroom drama with the entire Lovers Bugs family being called to the stand on charges of misrepresentation, catfishing and fraud. In the red corner, we have the defendant - the Lovers Bugs family who insists that they have not misrepresented themselves and that the name means what it suggests. And in the blue corner, we have the prosecution who is casting doubt on the integrity of the name "Lovers Bugs", suggesting that maybe a name change is in order.

 Ladies and Gentlemen of the jurors, please cast your vote!! :-)

Lol! 

In my interpretation, the bugs are either always used by lovers (with mutual romantic love) or almost always used by lovers (simply with the possibility that they could potentially be used by a pair where the recipient had romantic love for the cultivator, but the cultivator only had strong platonic love for the recipient). So I think it's fine for the name to stay as-is. ^^

 HeadInTheClouds:

@AH

I wrote a long reply to your post and lost it :-(.

Ugh I hate when that happens. Such a shame!

 HeadInTheClouds:

Once successfully implanted, a change of heart - i.e. one person falls out of love and they are "not lover" - will lead to the Lovers Bugs turning into Heartbreak Bugs. A change of love for me also means falling in love with another person. There is also the physical betrayal aspect; kissing OK, but sexual intercourse is a no-deal.

Our interpretations here are very similar, except that I take the view that physical intimacy with another could occur without being a betrayal that resulted in the pair becoming "not lovers" and that would cause the Lovers' Bugs to become Heartbreak Bugs. 

I guess you take the view that XL/FFB did not sleep with the pretty dancer? ^^

 HeadInTheClouds:

All these nitpicking and hairsplitting are just our attempt to come up with some sort of definitive guideline on the mechanisms of how the Lovers Bugs operate. We know that it's not really possible. Tong Hua herself probably couldn't even tell us how these operate fully :-)

Agreed. It's about building and testing our respective headcanons rather than establishing irrefutable facts. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

Again, please take the post in the light-hearted, fun exchange that it is intended to be :-)

Always! ^^

 AH :

So it's more like... "If there was no love between the couple and the bug was still planted forcibly in the recipient, there will be serious consequences. Not only is it impossible that the couple's lives would be tied together (i.e., the bugs will not create a connection that will cause the couple to live together and die together) but it's even possible that one of them may be bitten by the bug and killed." ?

It is 99% corresponding to the subtitle. In the last sentence , it is not clear if one of them or both may get bitten back, endangering one or both life

I pasted here the whole conversation translated back to English

"XL: Recently I encountered a very strange type of bug. It can cause pain to the bug recipient while the person who cultivates the bug is in pain. On the contrary, if the bug recipient is injured, the cultivator will not be affected. But cultivator cannot control the worm at will, and even cannot call it back.

LR: Is that person who cultivates the bug a lady?

XL: Why do you ask that? (Haha did XL still doubt that Xiao Liu is a man)

LR: If it's really a lady. It's very likely that it is the male and female bugs for her lover.

XL: Male and female bugs?

LR: Legend has said that there is a type of male and female bugs that is extremely difficult to raise. One male, one female, equal strength. The person who plants the bug cannot control the bug. It is typically raised by women in order to plant on their lovers, expecting "one heart, one mind" [1] (idiom means wholehearted committment)  and never betray each other. Once the bug is planted, you will have the same destiny, life and death will be tied together. So, it is called the lovers' bug,too.

XL: If two people don't have feelings for each other, is it possible to plant the bug?

LR: Oh, no, no, no. But the poison bug technique is very mysterious, difficult to grasp, and it may be possible to be planted. But, forced planting can lead to serious consequences. It is not only impossible to have the same fate (i.e, lives and death tied together), but also possible be bitten back by the bug, endangering life/lives (there is no subject in the whole conversation, so it is difficult to know if it one life or both lives, I tried to use neutral subject here).

XL: How to remove the bug?

LR: The planting requires affection, and the removal requires affection, too. If the bug has not planted for long, then while it has not yet stabilized its roots, it is possible to transfer the bug to another person. But that person must have affection. Something like a lovers' bug, not only demands life but also demands heart. You have nine lives but only one heart, once you give it away you can't get it back"

[1] One heart, one mind: means wholehearted-ness, love commitment

 AH :

In my interpretation, the bugs are either always used by lovers (with mutual romantic love) or almost always used by lovers (simply with the possibility that they could potentially be used by a pair where the recipient had romantic love for the cultivator, but the cultivator only had strong platonic love for the recipient). So I think it's fine for the name to stay as-is. ^^

I think this is where we most differed in our interpretation/perception which has a cascading effect down the line, IMO. For me, it doesn't really make sense for the cultivator to only have strong platonic love for the recipient.

This is of course based on my subjective take. If I was to go through all this trouble, no way would I wasted it on a platonic love. Not to mention, I wouldn't want to tie my life to someone that I only have platonic love for. It would have to be with someone I'm madly, desperately in love with for me to go to such extreme. I'm simply too lazy otherwise :-)

It's possible for such a cultivator, but nor probable, IMO.

 AH :

Our interpretations here are very similar, except that I take the view that physical intimacy with another could occur without being a betrayal that resulted in the pair becoming "not lovers" and that would cause the Lovers' Bugs to become Heartbreak Bugs.

Just to clarify. So you think that physical intimacy - no matter the extend - will not turn the Lovers Bugs into Heartbreak Bugs?

 AH :

I guess you take the view that XL/FFB did not sleep with the pretty dancer? ^^

What did I miss?

Ok, I checked. Lol! Of course, you guys discussed XL's sex-life while I'm not around to participate (*peeve* :-)) My opinion is that XL is absolutely not a virgin and based on my interpretation of the Lovers Bugs, FFB did not have sex with the pretty dancer. That's not to say that other things couldn't have happened ;-)

If I don't take into account the Lovers Bugs, then he could have had. And why wouldn't he? There are no commitments or promises between him and XY, and she is running around getting up to all kinds of "situations" with Jing. 

Speaking of this matter. I know that the leak scripts show XL's experiencing XY's "enjoyment" during these moments. It's going to be hard to watch. What's the drama team's purpose for showing us this? To torture XL and his fans? To push XiaoJing as the OTP? It doesn't actually paint XY in a flattering light, IMO. She just comes across as thoughtless and heartless. 

 AH :

Agreed. It's about building and testing our respective headcanons rather than establishing irrefutable facts.

Yup. And Tong Hua is laughing all the way to the bank :-)

I haven't read all this, but I wanted to post this observation before I forget it or things move past it.

XY was imprisoned and tortured and depowered by a nine tailed fox, and yet chooses as her life companion a nine tailed fox who imprisoned and tortured and depowered her.

XY states she is not willing to share, and will only marry someone who won't have other wives or concubines in their life.  Yet, she is the one with multiple men in her life, and can't put only one first, and romantically loves two men.

XY states she wants a safe place to call home, but all her choices ensure she has no safe place to call home, except the one XL gives her.

 HeadInTheClouds:

Yes, that's the translation.

OMLR talked about the Lover Bugs as being planted by young ladies into their lover/the man they love in the hope of a lifetime of faithfulness and devotion (more literally, whole-heartedly devoted to each other). Once planted they will have shared fate and destiny, live and  died together (as in, if one die the other will die). If the bugs are forcibly planted, not only will it not be possible to share fate and destiny together, but it's possible for the bugs to bite back. 

Thank you!

 HeadInTheClouds:

I'm curious AH, are you watching this show in English? In my experience, due to the differences in culture and limitations in English, there are a lot of nuances missing in the English subtitles.

Yes, I am relying on the English subtitles for the drama, which are definitely far from perfect. So I truly appreciate any insights / clarifications provided by Mandarin speakers or from speakers of languages that are much closer to Mandarin (in terms of roots and cultural context). They are incredibly helpful!

 H19279:

It is 99% corresponding to the subtitle. In the last sentence , it is not clear if one of them or both may get bitten back, endangering one or both life

I pasted here the whole conversation translated back to English

Thank you so much for this!