"Lost You Forever 3": Only by reflecting on the past can we live better in the present.
Author Network Reporter: "Lost You Forever 3: Longing for No End" has been published, and the Lost You Forever series has also reached its final ending. After months of anticipation, readers can't wait to see this "perfect ending" do you think now? Will readers be satisfied with the ending? Do you think the ending of this story is satisfying?
Tong Hua: I don't know! Based on past experience, it is always difficult to unify opinions. Some are satisfied and some are dissatisfied. I don't know how to rate this ending. To me, the story always felt like a "temporary ending", because the story could only end at a certain point, and in my heart, all fresh life was still going on in that world, but I wouldn't write about it again.
liddi:
Unfortunately no. I am still trying to find the leaked script for the original S1 as well - can you please share if you do see it?
The leaked script for S2 actually starts from the end of Ep30, indicating S1 was originally intended to end with Xiao Yao's assassination and being brought to the ocean for healing. I am not as certain right now that the fireflies behind Xiang Liu in that scene was meant to indicate his feelings, but it would certainly be interesting to see how the original script actually described that scene. Certainly, in the leaked script, the 37 years under the ocean specifically mentioned the glow of the lovers bug in their hearts in different times and I charted the glow of the lovers bugs based on the script and drama here. I also compared the leaked script vs the drama of the 37 years healing under the ocean here.
Yes, if I get it I will share it immediately.
My Brother Is Cang Xuansolarlunareclipse:
In a previous post, we explored the four reasons Xiao Yao gave to justify her refusal to kiss Xiang Liu after she regained her identity as Gao Xing’s eldest princess. Let’s review these reasons:
My brother is Cang Xuan. Xiang Liu is on the opposing side of her family, especially Cang Xuan. Xiao Yao valued Cang Xuan more than her own life, and she adamantly refused even to think about betraying him.
I’m still a girl who dreams. What Xiao Yao wanted most was a lifelong companion who would put her first. This is a role that Xiao Yao knew Xiang Liu was unwilling to play due to his loyalty to Hong Jiang and the Shen Nong Remnant Army. Moreover, Xiao Yao had agreed to a fifteen-year contract with Jing: he vowed to fulfill her dream of lifelong companionship in exchange for not letting another man into her heart.
I’m afraid you’ll walk into my dreams; that might be even scarier than death. Xiao Yao was afraid of falling in love with Xiang Liu, only to have him die on the battlefield and leave her behind. To her, the fear of being abandoned by her lover was even scarier than death.
You’re unsuitable to appear in a girl’s dreams. Xiang Liu’s sometimes cruel and indifferent treatment of Xiao Yao made her insecure about his feelings towards her. She reasoned that even if he did have feelings for her, a ruthless person was incapable of being good to her for her entire life.
I read your two posts related to the reasons that XY declined XY's kiss in chapter 13. I agree with many evidents that you quoted to support your main points. I have no extra comment on first 2 reasons: CX was her brother and she was still a girl who dreamed. I agree with you on these. However, in my opinion, the last 2 reasons can be combined because " you are not suitable to appear in a girl's dream and it's scarier than death" were the explanation for "I am fraid of you'll walk into my dream"
In your 2nd post, you emphasized on "my gege Cang Xuan" and my get after reading your analysis is this is the most crucial reason. When we analyze the whole novel, the family or political standpoint maybe very important reason that drive the story. However, at the point of chapter 13, I don't think it was that important. Overall for the whole story, I still think XY's idea/obssesion of a having a person who never abandoned her is the most crucial reason that lead to her bad ending with XL.
I appreciate the analysis from XY's point of view. I have a question to all of you that how XL understood of her reasons when he heard her explanation for not kissing him?
Thank you for this. I always thought that the crystal ball was also a submission from her part to XL's life choices, but I couldn't figured out why than the last question was so painful for her to answer, nothing made much sense. Now reading your interpretation, it seems so obvious.blabla100:
I find the last question especially poignant because:
- He wanted to give her someone who can always be with her for her lifetime, knowing that that person was not him. He already had his answer about whom she was willing to marry, and he could have stopped right there. However, because he understood her appeal and what it implied, that she was willing to settle for temporary companionship with him, he needed to know, both for himself and her, whom she truly wanted most to spend that lifetime with. Her refusal to answer was an answer in itself, because it told him who that person was, and why she could not, would not answer. And that knowledge was both a source of pain and comfort to him.
- The one she truly wanted to spend her lifetime with was him, but she knew it was an impossible wish, so she would not allow herself to even consider that question. She was willing to settle for a short-lived time with him despite knowing that one day he would leave her for good, but he would not even give her that, and destroyed every hope, however faint, of that ever happening, even as Fangfeng Bei. It speaks to the amount of courage it must have cost her to have made that appeal to him in the first place, notwithstanding the fact that she would have had to face her greatest fear of being abandoned at the end, and my heart aches immeasurably for her because of it.
In the end, when the day she dreaded finally came, her outburst told us exactly what she kept in her heart:
Xiao Yao's face blanched. Her body trembled uncontrollably but she continued to lie to herself, murmuring, "I'm fine! I have long been mentally prepared... When I first met him, I already knew this day would come. I've always known!"
Xiao Yao murmured, "Even though I kept warning myself that he was Cang Xuan's enemy, I... I was not prepared after all! How I wish it was all just a lie... He is so cunning, he could find a way to survive if he wanted to!"
Jing remained silent, knowing Xiao Yao did not need his response.
"It is exactly because he is so cunning that he did not want to stay alive! He once told me, 'Actually, for a general, the best outcome is to die on the battlefield.' He chose the best outcome for himself!"
"What best outcome? He is the world's greatest fool! He did right by Hong Jiang and all his dead brothers-in-arms, but did he do right by himself?"
"I am the fool! He did not care at all, so why should I be sad? I don't want to be sad..."
Xiao Yao cried as she talked until her words gradually trailed off. In the end, she curled up in Jing’s arms, staring at the towering poinciana trees in silence. Crimson blooms fell one by one, scattered by the wind, like frame upon frame of a past that was lost. No matter how glorious and beautiful they once were, they would all disappear with the wind.
Xiao Yao closed her eyes wearily. “Jing, I want to leave!“
-- Vol 3 Ch18 (Chapter 51)
I think I read about a Tong Hua interview somewhere that said XY's character growth is supposed to happen after the end of the novel, which doesn't make for the most satisfying character development arc.
It would be great to see that TH's interview. Eons ago I wrote a piece on XY and her relationships with Jing and XL as an allegory for her healing journey. In that context, XL's death was a catalyst for XY to seek real healing/change. It's just that reading the story as it is, XY's minimal growth is super frustrating.
That said, for me, I find that judging XY too harshly takes away from my personal enjoyment of the work. This is why I choose to overlook/rationalize her engaging in infidelity
I was not expecting my comment about XY's impaired judgement and moral standard in this specific instant to spiral into a discussion about whether fidelity/adultery is justifiable. This thread never failed to surprise and entertained me :-). I even looked up the word moral to make sure I was using the right term. Maybe I should have specified her behaviour as hypocritical and selfish as it was about her gain and she didn't consider or didn't care how it affected another person (FFYY in this case). Nevertheless, one instance of shitty behaviour doesn't make someone a bad person. If I write off characters the minute that they did something shitty, I will have no books/dramas left to consume. XY is not the kind of character I prefer for numerous reasons; the things that I enjoy about her are outweighed by those that I don't. It's a shame since I find WYL interesting (I quite like characters that are damaged and unconventional) with a lot of potential to develop into a compelling character, but once she became XY it derailed :-(. Where was her sass, her spunk and fighting spirit? They barely existed anymore. Bloody sad.
As for her not being firm enough in choosing XL, I support her decision not to choose XL before 37 years because I believe her main reason for doing this was because she put her own desires aside in order to support CX
XY's not choosing XL is understandable. Trauma or no, she's free to make the choices that she thinks best suit her needs. Although I don't think it was really about CX - at least not solely or even the primary reason. If that was the case, there really was no need for Jing and the 15 years pact. Her relationship with Jing was very much about her needs and she invested a lot into making it work because she really wanted what he promised her. It's not about blame, I said eons ago that I don't blame either one for the way their relationship turned out, I just don't agree with the idea that it was XL who didn't give them a chance and he made a unilateral decision. XY's initial choice impacted the trajectory of their relationship and impacted XL's choices.
I also understand when other readers (not necessarily you) choose to view XL as a perfect, selfless character and XY being this hopelessly selfish and damaged character who is completely undeserving of his love
It's not necessarily that XL is perfect and XY underserving, but that at time it comes across as really unbalanced. One side could barely commit while the other side sacrifice and suffered too much. It was never explicitly stated, but the implications are there. After a while it just came across as sadistic, emotional torture with XL as the whipping boy. Observing the relationship, I just want him to abort because he deserved so much more than what he was getting.
I keep hopping on and off the ship depending on my interpretation of XY - sometimes I feel really sorry for her and feel sad that things didn't work out for them. Other times I just want to bark at her to put her big girl panties on and freaking show firmness and commitment.
"Lost You Forever 3": Only by reflecting on the past can we live better in the present.windiaaa041293:
The following is a slightly different translation of what Tong Hua said:
Lost You Forever 3: Only by reflecting on the past can one lead a better life in the present
Author Network reporter: "Lost You Forever3: Boundless Yearning" has been published, and the Lost You Forever series has finally reached its conclusion. After months of anticipation, readers cannot wait to see this "perfect ending". Do you think that the readers would be satisfied with this ending? To you, can the conclusion of this story be considered to be perfect / satisfying?
Tong Hua: I don't know! Based on past experience, it is hard to please everyone, some will be satisfied, while others will not be. I don't know how to evaluate this ending. To me, stories always give the feeling of "temporarily coming to an end", because stories can only end at a certain point, while in my heart, they are all organic, their lives continuing on in that world, just that I would no longer write about it.
This is in line with what she posted on Weibo years ago:
#Talking about Yearning during QiXi# Let's start off with this topic. Actually, the conclusion of every story is not the real ending of those characters. On this topic, I am a very unrealistic person. I always feel that the story is just a chapter in their lives. Even though my story has ended, their lives will continue in another dimension, so the true ending cannot be found in any story.
-- Tong Hua, 13 Aug 2013
and also how she responded when a reader wished to know whether Meng Jue of "Song of the Desert" really died or not. She said she did not know, but she hoped that he survived and one day they would meet again many years down the road.
While what she said should only apply to those who were still alive at the end, we might also assume that perhaps, somewhere, somehow, Xiang Liu managed to survive, or managed to be resurrected, and that maybe, just maybe, he and Xiao Yao would meet again...
I need the remaining two books - the prequel to LYF for more of Xiang Liu at a time when he was alive and well, and the 4th novel, if only for a sliver of hope that we might see him again after the events of LYF...
In this case, this song is stuck in my head and I can't help picturing it as a song sung inside Xiao Yao's heart, in a scenario where she was brave enough to fully acknowledge to herself her feelings for XL in the days after she sent the ice crystal ball to him, and where she was truly prepared to leave everything behind to run away with him.AH :
Thank you very much for sharing the song and its translation, and how seamlessly you tied in the YaoLiu perspective into it. While it is not exactly my view of Xiao Yao's frame of mind at the time, it is a very compelling one within the context of the song itself.
Regardless of what Xiao Yao hoped - whether it was for him to take her away either to join him as Xiang Liu or lead a life away from everyone they knew, or to stay in the mortal realm with her as Fangfeng Bei - it joins the long list of what-ifs, which we will never see come to pass since Tong Hua had determined it would never happen, because Xiang Liu would not let Xiao Yao take that path even though he really wanted to take her hand too.
Fine raindrops fell gently on his palm, condensing into cold mist around the ice crystal, making the blue waves shimmer like the ocean under a moonlit night.
The blue ocean depths, tranquil and serene, the mermaid sitting on her beautiful seashell home, hand outstretched as if to beckon or to plead. However, the merman just gazed coldly out at the world beyond the ocean.
Xiang Liu stared at the ice crystal globe in his palm for a long, long time.
Slowly, he extended a finger towards the mermaid’s outstretched hand and his finger touched the ice crystal.
It appeared as if they were holding hands, but in truth the ice crystal separated them and they were in two completely different worlds, never truly able to hold each other’s hands.
-- Vol 2 Ch14 (Chapter 31)
This is one of the times when I truly ache for Xiao Yao, to have found the courage within herself to actively pursue what she wanted and allow herself to be vulnerable for once, only to receive the coldest, harshest of responses.
Xiao Yao kept feeling that there were things she wanted to say, but when she tried to think it through, she could not tell what it was. She said, “Things are no longer the same as before. It is best for you to come to the Central Plains less often.”
Xiao Yao thought Xiang Liu would mock her, whether she was worried that Cang Xuan would kill him, or that he would kill Cang Xuan. However, to her surprise, Xiang Liu said nothing, merely continued to look at her.
Xiao Yao quietly waited, but she did not know what exactly she was waiting for.
This part always breaks my heart. She wanted to say something, but didn't know what, so she ends up saying that awful line. And instead of taking it lightly and mocking her as she expects, XL doesn't answer at all. And that apparent silent agreement or acceptance is just devastating.
Why are things not the same as they were before? Because Cang Xuan is emperor now? Or because she is engaged to Feng Long? Since XY told XL earlier in the chapter that she wanted to remove the Lovers Bugs and that she would stop making poisons for him once she was married, I feel like the change she is referring to is her engagement. Although the fact that she expected him to mock her about Cang Xuan makes me think that she might also be referring to Cang Xuan taking the throne too.
XL pushed XY away in chapter 22, chapter 24, and chapter 32. He also pushes her away in chapter 29, but she pushes him away too. Even though, IMO, it was clear that she didn't actually want to push him away. I don't think she was happy when he congratulated her on her engagement. And when she told him about no longer sending him poisons when she was married and wanting to remove the lovers bugs, that seemed like an earlier version of the message she sent with the ice crystal ball: if you don't say or do anything now, our current relationship will end and our current ties will be broken. And then they have their final conversation in chapter 29 that ends with XY saying that line and then waiting, but not knowing exactly what she was waiting for.
Heartbreaking and frustrating.
Thank you very much for sharing the song and its translation, and how seamlessly you tied in the YaoLiu perspective into it.
Thank you for reading :)
While it is not exactly my view of Xiao Yao's frame of mind at the time
Ditto.
Xiang Liu would not let Xiao Yao take that path even though he really wanted to take her hand too.
Slowly, he extended a finger towards the mermaid’s outstretched hand and his finger touched the ice crystal.
It appeared as if they were holding hands, but in truth the ice crystal separated them and they were in two completely different worlds, never truly able to hold each other’s hands.
Indeed. Another heartbreaking scene.
This is one of the times when I truly ache for Xiao Yao, to have found the courage within herself to actively pursue what she wanted and allow herself to be vulnerable for once, only to receive the coldest, harshest of responses.
Yes, chapter 32 was rough all around.
@AH & H19279
Thanks for taking the time to find the links to the old posts. You both raise good points, and I find both theories plausible. I actually think that Tong Hua could have intentionally made it so that XY could have been thinking about either CX and XL when she quotes the poem. This would be just like in other parts of the novel, where things XY says could apply to both TSJ and XL. That said, even if both interpretations could apply, the interpretation that resonates more with me is that XY is thinking about XL and decides she shouldn't pursue a relationship with him.
Personally, I think TSJ helped XY work through her unresolved feelings for XL from the very beginning, although XY didn't intentionally use him as a substitute until later. After XL and XY's first meeting, Jing found XY, carried her, and helped her heal after XL had her whipped. When XL showed up at Ma Zi/Chun Tao's wedding, XY tried to poison XL with the wine, but it was Jing who voluntarily poisoned himself instead. When XL made XY fall from the tree, Jing again carried her home and took care of her. However, quoting the poem might be the first time XY intentionally considered using Jing as a substitute for XL.
My theory is that XY had been aware that she's in love with XL since they watched the moon rise from the surface of the ocean, at the very latest. Even before that, she thought about him night and day, delighting in looking at his image in her mirror alone in her room at night and daydreaming about him when business was slow at the clinic.
It's true that XY first thought about CX while CX's men were torturing her to get the antidote for A Nian. However, the "grass snake ash line" interpretation suggests she switched to thinking about XL towards the end of the torture.
The night before she left for Jade Mountain, Gege asked to sleep with her. She was sleeping all drowsy when she felt Gege embrace her and tears fell on her face. She thought he had a nightmare and was about to pat him “Don’t worry, I’m here with you.” Gege instead kept repeating “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m too useless. I will hurry up and grow up. I will protect you and Auntie. I will go bring you back….”
In the darkness the time passed but Xiao Liu only spoke to himself but sometimes there was so much pain he forgot what he was saying. But every time he used his incredible willpower to keep on talking to himself. Who knows how much time passed but Xiao Liu was talking about how to grill fish various ways when the door opened and a light shone in. Being in the darkness for so long, the light hurt so Xiao Liu closed his eyes.
-- Vol 1 Ch 5 (Chapter 5)
Grilled fish = XL. XL first ate her grilled fish after she first made fun of his nine heads.
Xiang Liu took the grilled fish and slowly started to eat it and Xiao Liu could only stare. After he finished the fish he stared at Xiao Liu “I actually like eating people the best. Your size is perfect so that each of my heads can take a bite.”
-- Vol 1 Ch 3 (Chapter 3)
She also made him grilled fish after their sea expedition after CX's wedding. There may be other instances as well, but I haven't taken full inventory of situations involving her grilling fish for XL.
Xiao Liu walked up to Jing, smiled and sighed. "I'll drink from the gold cup (金櫑), so that I won't miss [him] any longer! I'll drink from the jade wine pouring vessel (彼兕觥***), so that I won't suffer any longer!" From death to life, let me indulge for a moment and forget about those sad things.
Rather than interpreting Jing as both the gold pot and the rhino horn goblet, it's possible that the gold pot represents Jing and the rhino horn goblet represents Cang Xuan. They both distract XY from her feelings for XL.
- Jing (璟 - jǐng) and gold (金 - jīn) sound alike. 璟 means "bright," which can also be used to describe gold.
- According to H19279's post, the mythical female rhino-like creature (兕) has a horn that is green in color and looks like green jade. According to liddi's post, 颛顼 (Zhuan Xu) literally means "the one who wears the jade crown among the social elites." With the rename of this character to 玱玹 (Cang Xuan), 玱 (cāng) means the color of jade, and 玹 (xuán) is a type of jade, which reinforces the association with the jade crown in the original name. Also, both characters in 玱玹 (Cang Xuan) contain the jade radical (⺩). Thus, the rhino horn goblet could represent Cang Xuan instead of Jing.
For these reasons, I personally find the interpretation that Xiao Yao is thinking about Xiang Liu and decides not to pursue a relationship with him when she quotes the poem to resonate more with me.
Thanks again for sharing this very interesting discussion!
相伴一生 literally means "accompany for a lifetime". The keyword here is 一生 "a lifetime", or specifically her lifetime. The way I see it, his last question triggered her immensely because when she sent the crystal globe to him, accepting that he would still persist in his stance, she was resigned to the fact that if he agreed to take her hand, the life they shared would not last her lifetime. He had determined to fight, and she knew that one day he would die, and she would be alone once more. She was willing to settle for a companionship that was temporary, as long as he was willing to let her be a part of his life. As such, she refused to think of whom she wanted to spend the entirety of her own life with, because she wanted to spend her lifetime with him, but she knew it would never be possible.
Thanks for sharing this theory, liddi. So far, it's the most plausible and logically consistent explanation I've come across for why XY couldn't answer the last question.
Where was her sass, her spunk and fighting spirit? They barely existed anymore. Bloody sad.HeadInTheClouds:
I agree that XY's lack of fighting spirit is very annoying. Her initiative seems almost nonexistent except for when she helps CX take the throne and when she seduces Hou (big eyeroll). I partially blame this on Tong Hua prioritizing narrative repetition over character development to weave her 'grass snake ash line' story. Since I find Tong Hua's use of narrative techniques fascinating, this explanation helps placate some of my frustration with XY's inaction. But yeah, I agree that XY should have gotten up off her butt and done something.
In the past, she used to feel they had so many opportunities to see each other, but it was not clear when it began that Xiao Yao started to feel that each meeting was one meeting less. By this night, the feeling had become even more evident.
With a smile, Xiao Yao curtsied to Xiang Liu then turned to knock on the door. The door creaked open and Xiao Yao stepped inside. When she turned around, Xiang Liu was still standing outside, white robed black hair, extremely refined and elegant, yet like the white waters and black mountains of the North, even when the mountain flowers were in full bloom, there was a lingering sense of desolation.
Thanks for translating this. These passages are so much more sentimental and heartbreaking than the Koala translation.
XY: Haven't you given us a gift already? Still, one can't have too many presents. Since you wish to give again, I will accept again.
AN (requesting): Older Sister, bring this doll together with you to travel the world. (holding back her sorrow) Make... (softly) up... for what I am missing out on.
XY: Alright.
I just came across this old post on your translation of the leaked script. I completely understand the negative sentiment towards most of the changes in the drama, as they make it seem almost like a completely different work from the novel. However, I found the specific change of AN giving XY the doll for XL to be quite clever, since AN is XL's most prevalent shadow. I can also imagine XL wanting to tell XY, "Make up for what I am missing out on." (╯︵╰,)
However, in my opinion, the last 2 reasons can be combined because " you are not suitable to appear in a girl's dream and it's scarier than death" were the explanation for "I am fraid of you'll walk into my dream"H19279:
While I agree that the original lines could have been combined, there were two specific issues I wanted to address, and I thought the analysis would flow better if I separated the lines to address these issues individually:
- XY's fear of abandonment: Once XL understood her fear, the only thing he could do was explain his reason for choosing to die on the battlefield, which he did after she asked him why he chose Hong Jiang when he comforted her about being Chi Chen's daughter.
- XL's less-than-gentlemanly previous treatment of XY: XL corrected this immediately when he appeared before her as FFB.
I have a question to all of you that how XL understood of her reasons when he heard her explanation for not kissing him?
My opinion is that he understood some of the reasons right away and didn't know some of them until later.
- My brother is Cang Xuan. I think XL got this right away. That's why I don't think he seriously tried to assassinate CX after that. I believe he let Xiao Yao feel his presence but did not intend to kill Cang Xuan after the banquet at Chi Liang’s residence. Despite Xiao Yao blocking Cang Xuan with her body, Xiang Liu would have had no problem shooting around her, as he later demonstrated as Fang Feng Bei when he shot the yellow flower bud and had the arrow return to him. I also don't think CX was XL's real target when FL was assassinated. I'll do a separate write-up on my reason for this belief later, but I don't feel like debating this point right now.
- The long-winded nonsense about being unsuited for a girl's dreams. I think XL was as confused about the full implications of her long-winded rant about girls' dreams as we were. At first, he may have just presumed the entire rant boiled down to the concern that he was "unsuitable," meaning he didn't treat her well enough. He realized this before he appeared before her as FFB, which is why he took care to treat her so well and flaunt his attraction to her as FFB. He must have been devastated to find out that her dreams revealed multiple issues about him when she refused to let him suck blood from her neck after he came to her bedroom injured and revealed his identity.
- I'm still a girl who dreams about a lifelong companion who I can use as a sounding board to alleviate my loneliness until they decide to bash their head in like the monkey I caught earlier. I don't think XL understood this until she made him the Koi Fish Playing with Lotus Leaves poison dish and told him, “If only you could forever be Fang Feng Bei, that would be so great!” This might be part of the reason he decided to stay away for an extended period after that, although the other reason could have been because she tastelessly decided to "romance" Jing in a drunken daze shortly after. Her actions here never fail to make me want to throw up. Anyhow, XL certainly fully understood YSQ's importance to her before he decided to wake her up from her 37-year coma to go save that slumbering lump of dead weight. All nine of his heads must have been flooded with water when he made that decision.
- I'm afraid you'll walk into my dreams and then abandon me; that might be even scarier than death. In the beginning, XL may have only understood her literal statement about not wanting him in her dreams without understanding why. To get her to put her guard down and coax her into giving him a chance, he appeared before her as a good-for-nothing playboy who wasn't suitable to be husband material. I don't think he fully understood why she didn't want him in her dreams until he almost lost her in the Plum Forest assassination. I think this may be a big part of the reason he decided to give her up after 37 years under the sea: he didn't want her to have to experience the heartbreak that he went through when he almost lost her. This is frustrating for me because I feel he should have just laid everything on the table and let her make her own decision. Somebody should tell XL that ghosting a girl after letting her fall in love with you for 37 years isn't the best way to help her get over her abandonment issues.
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