When it came to helping CX, it seemed like TSJ did make some important contributions. First by convincing Feng Long and other important figures to back CX at a time when XY was the only person who was willing to back him. Second, by coming up with the idea that CX should focus on Shengnong Mountain instead of Xuan Yuan Mountain. And third, by helping him raise funds for his own army and then keep those funds secret.AH :
I think for me the initial intention of TSJ support ( to ensure XY to be his) is still a strong hurdle for me to overcome. I also feel that Jing working in the shadow, regardless of his clan's rules, also pivots him to gain everything if things goes well, and for him to lose nothing if things go sour. CX and FL would have bear the brunt of the fall. It would of course benefit him most if everything went smoothly. Lastly, TSJ's plans still required someone with the intelligence and grit of CX and FL to execute and for TH to give all the credit to TSJ in the end was not convincing at all. With CX walking away, the way he did, was more a character development on his end. And after reading @H19279 explanation really helped me frame my icky thoughts.
"I did it only because Your Majesty's magnanimity and calibre convinced me that what I did was right. To this day, I never regretted my choices, and neither did Feng Long. We were completely right in our decisions and perseverance."
This sounds almost as a cheeky stab at CX for trying to assassinate Jing. Like in those imperial court dramas, where a rival minister would bow down to the emperor to appease him to avoid execution.
But in the end, I still believe it is with XL's death that actually ushered a new age in Dahuang. He is the last capable remnant general of the old world.
The story of FFYY with wedding dress on, stepping into Jing's house and lived there as his wife (on waiting) was well-known across the Great Wideness and Jing also knew it. He was a gentlement, well-educated and came from one of the most famous, noble families in the world. Thus, he understood better than anyone that FFYY was not just a simple fiancee but a kind of unofficial wife. She behaved and was treated in his family and clan as his grandmother's grand-daughter in laws. He knew that disolution this kind of tie was extremely difficultH19279:
True.
So Jing first asked for 20 years then he dereased to 15 years. Why did he do it? in his mind, which number was more realistic? His calculation reduction was due to the fact that he was afraid of WXL's patience. He reduced it to 15 years just to make his condition more appealing.
Agreed.
He ignored the fact or calculation of how long it would take to call of the engagement.
So, if Jing thought that "FFYY would be willing to call off the engagement under the right circumstances" or with generous prices before he asked WXL the 15 years promise, he would be very optimistic.
"Ignored the facts" seems like a strong way of putting it. But I agree that it seems like he went with an optimistic calculation rather than the most realistic calculation.
Tong Hua didn't mention anything about FFYY's disgusted attitude toward Jing in chapter 7-8. However, Jing told XY that FFYY didn't like him and scared of him in chapter 14. Thus FFYY's disgust could happen in QS town or after Jing returned home. Jing's scars looks scary and her petrified reaction was understable.
The outsiders' observation of FFYY's attitude to Jing were all told to XY or mentioned when XY was in the Middle Plains (in chapter 19-20). In chapter 16, Jing had told XY that FFYY declined to call off the engagement. Until Jing returned Qing Qiu for the new year celebration, I don't see any signal from Jing that he could proactively come up with brilliant idea to offer or convince FFYY to accept his condition/price and he could not convince his grandmom either.
True. TSJ mentioned in chapter 14 that after FFYY saw his scars she was shocked, wouldn't look at him, and kept physical distance from him when they were alone. Since XY saw FFYY and TSJ physically close to one another on a boat in chapter 12, it seems like FFYY probably saw TSJ's scars sometime after the boat ride in chapter 12 and sometime before TSJ told XY about her reaction in chapter 14.
But I imagine TSJ would have been able to tell that FFYY disliked him shortly after their first meeting in chapter 7, if not immediately. FFYY would have noticed in their first meeting that TSJ had a limp and that his voice was damaged. It also seems likely that TSH would have told her things over the previous nine years that would have made her view TSJ in a certain way, in addition to her simply viewing TSJ as inferior to TSH because she was already in love with TSH. Given how terrible FFYY was at hiding her disdain and disgust for TSJ later on, it seems likely that TSJ would have gotten a sense of FFYY's feelings in the time that he spent with her in QS town before asking WXL to make the 15 year promise in chapter 8.
-----
Chapter 14:
“Seeing Feng Long so nice to me, does your heart hurt?”
“It hurts.” Jing paused and said slowly, “It hurts a lot.”
Xiao Yao laughed. “Seeing you hurt, now I feel better.”
Jing’s hand brushed her face. “Who hit you?”
Xiao Yao said, “Ah Nian, I kicked her a few times and punched her in the face. We’re even.”
Jing’s hand accumulated his power and he was lightly rubbing her cheek to make the swelling go down but she pushed his hand away. “Your mom picked well. Fang Feng Yi Yang is a good wife to have, you two are very suited for each other.”
All the blood color in Jing’s face disappeared and he lowered his head.
...
Jing said, “I’m not interested in Yi Yang and she’s not interested in me. This time when I go back, I’ll tell my grandmother to end the engagement.”
“Hhmmm, huh?” Xiao Yao’s mind was still fuzzy so it told her a moment to process it. “How do you know? She’s so nice to you…”
Jing cut her off. “Xiao Yao, I’ve met plenty of women interested in me, I know how a woman looks at a man she wants. No matter how nice she is to me, she’s never looked at me like that. And now…” Jing stroked her hair, “Now I know what it feels like to want someone, I’m not wrong!”
Xiao Yao released a sigh. “Okay.”
Jing actually felt worse because Xiao Yao didn’t see that when he was alone with Yi Yang, the way she looked at him. Xiao Yao never thought of him as crippled so thought Yi Yang would feel the same, she thought others saw him the way she saw him.
In my opinion, everything that happened in the Dragon Bone Prison happened in a suddent way. And Jing took that popped up, once in million year opportunity to ask WXL the promise without thorough consideration.
I agree. I don't think TSJ planned the whole confession and requested promise in advance.
Assuming that Jing could get rid of his family name and run away as YSQ, FFYY would have still stayed at Tushan family under the grandmom's wing.
Yes, I imagine FFYY might have stayed with the Tushan clan even if TSJ openly left the clan.
Although if TSH officially became clan leader after TSJ left, I wonder if he might have started to treat FFYY differently, especially after his grandmother died, and if FFYY's behaviour / priorities might have also changed if she felt like TSH wronged her?
Another scenerio is Jing became the clan leader, he had not been trapped by his grandmom and FFYY and his grandmother's died in 6 month. What would have happend? Do you really that his grandmom did not force him to promise sth at the dead bed? FFYY for sure would not volunteerily go back to Fang Feng family. If she used her own life to thread Jing, would he ignore her? If FFYY committed suicide, would he and XY still progress to marriage without any guilty feeling?
Based on what we know about TSJ's grandmother's behaviour and FFYY's behaviour throughout the novel, we have the benefit of hindsight so we can say that TSJ's grandmother likely would have tried to force TSJ to make a promise when she was on her deathbed, and FFYY likely would have taken drastic measures like threatening suicide to keep her position. But I don't think TSJ anticipated that kind of behaviour from them based on what he knew of them by chapter 8, and I don't think he anticipated his complete inability to change their minds either. He seemed to have a huge blindspot when it came to both of them.
If anyone had time, please look up what XY told XY in chapter 47 about herself and Jing, there are many information, ambiguity and the hint about the reason of her obsession to Jing.
Koala's translation, chapter 47:
“I know that in your eyes, Feng Long is much better than Jing. You’ve also looked down on Jing, thinking he doesn’t have grander ambition and only thinks about making money for the Tu Shan clan, and he’s weak and too kind when it comes to dealing with Hou and Yi Yang.”
Zhuan Xu remembered what Feng Long said to him before death and felt this jolt in his heart. He gulped down the wine and didn’t deny it. “I did think that way.”
Xiao Yao said, “You all think that I saved Jing’s life and he just glommed on to me, but in truth it was Jing who saved me.”
Zhuan Xu stared in disbelief at Xiao Yao.
Xiao Yao continued, “When I left Jade Mountain, I was just a kid who knew nothing. Later I encountered all those horrible things, I only glanced over it when telling you and didn’t share all the details. I didn’t forget any of it, it’s just those tens of years of agony and shame are horrible for me to stomach. When I was locked in a cage by the nine-tailed fox, he would beat me and torture me and make me eat all sorts of disgusting things. I lived even worse than an animal. I hated everyone I could possibly hate – I hated them for abandoning me, for making me live a nightmare. I may have survived in the end but my heart and soul were battered. When I met Jing, he was dirtier than the dirtiest beggar. I saved him in a split second’s kindness and didn’t actually care if he lived or died. But when I discovered all the wounds and bruises on his body, it reminded me of myself so many years ago. I suddenly had a strong desire for him to survive, to keep on living. It was like seeing myself get past it, if Jing could survive. I endured the same torture and shaming, so I know how it can turn a person extreme, cold, suspicious, and how hard it is to be someone who is warm, trusting, and kind. But Jing did it! He showed me, proved to me, that no matter how others have treated us, we can choose to still be kind and good and forgiving. Gege, you might see him as weak and indecisive but you tell me, if one day I betrayed you in the worst way, can you just kill me afterwards?”
Zhuan Xu said with certainty, “You would never betray me or hurt me!”
“Wasn’t that what Jing thought about Hou? He was Jing’s most trusted and beloved older brother. Until Hou did what he did, Jing was like you today, believing completely that Hou would never harm him. I thought Jing would turn cold and suspicious after what Hou did to him, and actions would be decisive and heartless, like both of us have become – but he didn’t! Gege, don’t you think that’s another kind of strength and courage? It appears different than us, but Jing is using his own method to defeat and overcome his suffering.”
Zhuan Xu was silent but he agreed, someone like Jing who was so brilliant and strategic on political matters, how could he not know how to get revenge on Hou?
Xiao Yao said, “Jing clearly saw what kind of person I am. He knows I won’t give first, won’t take a chance, so he told me that he will give first, he will take a chance. When he said that, he already did so much for me. I was touched then, yet didn’t believe in him completely. I thought it was possible to do it for a time but impossible to do it forever. People’s hearts change, today’s reality is not tomorrow’s reality! But Gege, after what you went through, could you still say that you will give first, you will take a chance? Are you even willing to do that?”
Zhuan Xu had no reply to that.
Xiao Yao added, “You and I are the same type of people – we cannot do that! Jing kept trying hard to get close to me, but I never fully trusted him, and in fact always was ready to fully retreat at any moment. I never said it but Jing must’ve known it. Gege, maybe in your eyes I’m perfect, but in truth it’s very tiring to be with a person like me!”
Zhuan Xu coolly said, “Perhaps he did a lot for you, but all I saw was you spitting up blood because of him and Fang Feng Yi Yang.”
Xiao Yao sighed. “Yes, that was Jing’s mistake, but I wasn’t blameless either. I could have handled the matter with him but chose not to do anything, watching from the sidelines and forcing him to prove himself to me. Back then I didn’t know that love can’t be about one-sided giving, staying together requires both sides working at it. We both made mistakes, so we both endured the punishment. It was the first time we both liked someone, so making mistakes is normal. We were simply used by Hou and Yi Yang is all.”
Zhuan Xu kept trying not to think about what Feng Long said before he died but his words gnawed at him. Right now his frustration burst forth and Zhuan Xu impatiently said, “Even if Jing is a million ways perfect, what’s the point of telling me this? No matter what, Jing is dead!”
Kokuto:
One thought, reading this stuff ... It's interesting that Grandma Tushan hand picked FFYY. Socially, her standing is inferior to Jing's. As Grandma pointed out, one reason he has to be Clan Leader, is that his mother is from the Great Clans -- his lineage and connections are superior.
So, why is she settling for a wife for Jing, from a minor family, that is dependent on Tu Shan and even inferior to the Six Families, much less the Four Great Clans?
FFYY was chosen to be TSJ's fiancee by TSJ's mother, not his grandmother, but I was curious about this too. The novel doesn't outright explain exactly why TSJ's mother decided that FFYY was the right person to be her son's future wife.
However, we do know that FFYY is described as being from a powerful family, is known to be an extraordinary archer and a talented go player (better at both than her brothers) and is described as being well-traveled, capable, elegant, beautiful (but not the most beautiful woman WXL had ever seen) and smart.
Although she was below TSJ, Feng Long and Xing Yue in terms of status, she managed to convince Xing Yue to become her friend when they were young and FFYY even travelled with Xing Yue before she was engaged. Once she convinced Xing Yue to become her friend, other high-status people viewed FFYY differently and accepted her into their circles.
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Chapter 5:
“In the entire great wilderness, no matter if it’s Xuan Yuan or Gao Xing territories, their businesses extend there. Can you imagine how wealthy they must be? I hear this Second Lord is very handsome, talented in all the arts from music to painting to [go], a witty conversationalist and all-around scholar. His nickname is the Young Master of Qing Qiu. So many well-born families want to marry their daughter to him. The Tu Shan family matriarch selected carefully and finally picked the daughter of the Fang Feng family. I hear that daughter followed her father and brothers all around growing up, she’s capable and very well traveled, as beautiful as a flower and can shoot a damn fine arrow.”
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Chapter 7:
Xiao Liu asked, “Why was there a bow and arrow embroidered on the window curtain?”
Xuan explained, “That is the emblem of the Fang Feng family. The Fang Feng family are all archers, and legend has it their ancestor could shoot down the stars. Not every family member has the right to embroider the emblem, and the size also matters. Based on that, the person in that carriage must be an extraordinary archer.”
...
They arrived at the residence but Jing stopped outside. Jing Ye could understand since the second lord had never even seen his fiancee despite being engaged. They were like strangers.
Jing Ye whispered, “Miss Fang Feng likes archery. My lord used to design weapons. She likes to travel and see the sights, my lord is an exquisite painter of sights, she likes to listen to songs from the North, my lord can play songs from the North on the flute for her. Oh right, she’s also a great [go] player and even her older brothers can’t beat her. My lord can play….”
...
“Stop!” Xuan’s voice was filled with scorn, “How do you prove it was them? A lot of people in the vast wilderness can shoot an arrow, and this arrow can be bought anywhere.”
Wu Cheng thought about it and dejectedly lowered his head. If it was the Fang Feng family, then it had to be the best archer Miss Fang Feng. She could be dealt with, but behind her stood the Tu Shan clan, one of the Four Great Clans of the vast wilderness. Even an Emperor had to be wary.
...
Xiao Liu bowed. “My lady please get up.” When she got up, he looked at Miss Fang Feng, and even using the most critical eye, he had no choice but to admit she was one elegant, well-mannered, gentle lady. She made one feel like taking care of her.
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Chapter 8:
“My father died shortly after I was born. I have an older twin brother named Tu Shang Hou.
...
Under our mother’s control, the power in the family ended up in my hands. She found for me a fiancee in the powerful Fang Feng family daughter, but only gave my brother a maid for a wife. I raised a fuss for my brother but he continued to try and win her affection so married the maid.
...
Four years after my mother died, grandmother decided to have my wedding and announce to the world that I would be the clan leader. One day, my brother came to see me and asked to talk. I went with him without any suspicion, and when I woke up I was in a deep dark jail cell, my powers sealed, my limbs in dragon bone chains.”
Shi Qi talked nonstop to get to this point, but the painful torture, the endless degradation, it all came rushing back and in the darkness his body clenched tightly.
-----
Chapter 12:
Xing Yue added, “Yi Yang is also my good friend. Before she got engaged, I traveled with her even. Jing gege and Yi Yang jiejie are good friends to both my Gege and me. So much has happened these past years so it’s really precious that they have reunited. We want to throw a party to celebrate for them.”
...
It was strange, Yi Yang was not the most beautiful woman Xiao Liu had ever seen, but under the fireworks and the way she almost fell and then leaned into Jing, there was a woman’s elegance and beauty that struck Xiao Liu deeply. It made Xiao Liu, who had been living as a man for two hundred years, feel ashamed and envious.
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Chapter 14:
Jing didn’t dare do anything back to her but he also didn’t budge. “I won’t marry her. She doesn’t like me so she likely doesn’t want to marry me either.”
Xiao Yao stopped shoving. “I don’t believe it! What reason does she have to not like you?”
“I’m a cripple and I can tell she’s shocked and dismayed. One time she saw the scars on my body and was shocked…..” To say “shocked” was an understatement, Yi Yang’s face was stark white and she was petrified, not daring to look at him in that moment. Since then, when they were alone together, she would purposely keep her distance from him.
Xiao Yao felt terrible, she knew Jing had a crippled leg and his scars were truly scary, but that shouldn’t be a reason to dislike him. Xiao Yao said “You guys have been engaged for tens of years, shouldn’t she not care about such external trappings?”
“In truth, before I saw her in Qing Shui Town, I didn’t even know what she looked like. We never met before and she was chosen by my mother. By then my mother was very sick and I didn’t want her to fret over my marriage so I agreed immediately. I took care of my mother and ran the businesses so I was so busy I didn’t care much about this. It was my brother who went off to meet her and came back with a smile and told me “congrats, she’s beautiful and smart”. After mother died, I had to take care of my despondent brother so was in no mood for romance. After my grandmother revealed my brother’s birth, I was even less inclined to think about this. Then my grandmother wanted to set the wedding date and that was when I remembered I had a fiancee. My grandmother is elderly and my sister-in-law is of no use so the Tu Shan clan needs a lady of the house to help my grandmother with her worries. After my grandmother discussed with the clan elders, they set a wedding date but before it arrived, I was already captured by my brother.”
So Qing Shui Town was their first meeting, no wonder Fang Feng Yi Yang was disappointed…..Xiao Yao’s feelings were so conflicted, she felt angry and upset, but also somewhat happy. She really didn’t know what she was thinking.
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Chapter 16:
Xiao Yao was speechless – this guy’s personality was diametrically opposite to his little sister, he was so blatant it was refreshing. “I hear your entire family are crack archers?”
“Yup.”
“Who is better between you and your little sister?”
“Her.”
“Better to what degree?”
“You want to see my archery skills?”
“Yes!”
...
Xiao Yao said, “I notice your powers are far greater than Yi Yang, how come your archery skills are less than hers?”
Fang Feng Bei laughed. “Many think archery requires vast arm strength but it’s more based on clever strength. A specifically designed arrow can pierce through thick mystical enchantments so even someone without any power can hit a target vastly more powerful. My spiritual powers are much greater than my little sister but my archery technique cannot match up to her.”
-----
Chapter 20:
Xing Yue coldly scoffed. “End the engagement? She would never give it up! Yi Yang is very beautiful and capable, the top at everything. But no matter how talented she is, she is still the daughter of the Fang Feng family. The top six families in the Middle Plains wouldn’t even glance at her or give her the time of day. When I was still small, she tried to cozy up to me and became my friend which is when the other powerful daughters reluctantly accepted her. Once people saw her close to us, their opinion of her rose. I don’t even know how it happened that Jing gege’s mom decided on her and engaged her to Jing gege. She immediately changed and was no longer as solicitous towards me. By that time I was grown up so I understood how things worked and accepted that. Since she was the next wife of the Tu Shan clan leader, I figured I needed to keep her in line with me.”
The following is my translation of the excerpt, with the corrected name:liddi:
Thank you for sharing your translation liddi. Your attention to detail is impressive, as always.
I think for me the initial intention of TSJ support ( to ensure XY to be his) is still a strong hurdle for me to overcome. I also feel that Jing working in the shadow, regardless of his clan's rules, also pivots him to gain everything if things goes well, and for him to lose nothing if things go sour. CX and FL would have bear the brunt of the fall. It would of course benefit him most if everything went smoothly.plor20:
Valid. I don't disagree with any of that.
Lastly, TSJ's plans still required someone with the intelligence and grit of CX and FL to execute and for TH to give all the credit to TSJ in the end was not convincing at all.
The way I read it, Tong Hua wasn't suggesting that TSJ should be given all of the credit for both planning and executing the Shengnong Mountain plan. Rather, CX viewed that plan as visionary, integral to his success and a sign of faith and trust in him from the first powerful person who was willing to back him (other than XY). As he thought Feng Long came up with that plan, he made Feng Long his closest and most trusted right-hand man while thinking that TSJ was only providing some assistance to help execute the plan because of his interest in XY and his friendship with Feng Long. When Feng Long revealed (after CX had helped get TSJ killed) that the plan had been TSJ's idea all along and that he didn't seek credit for it, and even that TSJ had been the one to convince Feng Long to back CX, it fundamentally rocked CX's idea of who TSJ was to him.
"I did it only because Your Majesty's magnanimity and calibre convinced me that what I did was right. To this day, I never regretted my choices, and neither did Feng Long. We were completely right in our decisions and perseverance."
This sounds almost as a cheeky stab at CX for trying to assassinate Jing. Like in those imperial court dramas, where a rival minister would bow down to the emperor to appease him to avoid execution.
I personally don't read any cheek into TSJ's words there. They seemed sincere to me, and consistent with TSJ's earlier words where he encouraged XY to not lose faith in CX over one mistake (even though that one mistake was choosing to enable TSH to kill TSJ).
-----
Chapter 49:
“Hold off on seeing the Royal Mother. Zhuan Xu is on the cliff…..” Ah Bi let out a loud sigh. “You guys need to go see him!”
Xiao Yao’s smiled disappeared and she grabbed Jing’s hand tightly as if afraid he would disappear. Jing squeezed Xiao Yao’s hand and said to Sir Bi, “We’ll go.”
Sir Bi bowed to Jing before heading off.
Xiao Yao tried to act nonchalant and said to Jing, “Wait for me here, I’ll go and be back quickly.”
Jing asked, “Why can’t I go see His Majesty the Black Emperor?”
Xiao Yao opened her mouth but couldn’t get the words out.
Jing said, “Before going to Qing Shui Town, I brought extra secret guards just to be extra safe. But Hou’s people actually took out all of the Tu Shan clan guards, that’s something the Chi Sui clan leader can’t even pull off. Back then, I knew only one person in the entire world commanded such power, and because I guessed it was the Black Emperor, that was why I kept trying to inch closer to the river as I battled Hou so I could use the river to get away, because there must be more people waiting in Qing Shui Town to take me out.”
So Jing already knew, and didn’t need her to explain, so Xiao Yao sighed and lowered her head. “I’m so sorry!”
Jing sighed as well and pulled Xiao Yao into his arms, “Don’t feel bad, it’s not your fault.”
“You…..you…..you know the reason why Zhuan Xu wanted to kill you?”
“Even if I didn’t know then, I know now.”
Xiao Yao murmured, “If you know, then you need to be careful. I’ll go see him and after he leaves it’ll be fine.”
Jing said, “When I went to Sheng Nong Mountain to look for you, I talked with the Yellow Emperor and realized I made a big mistake as well. Let’s go see the Black Emperor and talk things out.”
Xiao Yao hesitated, not because she didn’t want to see Zhuan Xu, but because she was afraid!
Jing said, “The Black Emperor is the person you trust the most. Don’t let one mistake make you lose faith in him. Have you thought about why he was willing to let you marry Feng Long, but tried to stop you from marrying me? He was just as pained in both instances.”
“Because….he thinks you’re not as good as Feng Long.”
Jing shook his head, “That’s just the surface reason, the most important reason is that His Majesty believes I don’t have the ability to protect you. He’s lost so much already, he could not place you in the care of someone weak. Tell me the way to the cliff.”
Xiao Yao docilely led the way.
I still don't get this. But ok, maybe he was the only idiot available. I think we already agreed on this.nathsketch:
No, no, no. Some people think it's tu wuw! But to answer liddi's original question. It's because XY chose him. XY chose him because he lives and dies for her. And he lives and dies for her because he's the only man out of the lot that she knows without dignity, self-respect, self-worth and zero survival instinct. So because of that he won't harm her - needed her to validate his existence too much for that. Won't be able to protect her for shit, but we have Left-ear (aka. XL's stand-in for that).
Most of us here look at Jing and think....
While Xiao Yao thinks...
You have to excuse Xiao Yao. Her psychological deficiencies blinded her and impaired her judgement ;-).
As for the claim that XL chose Jing for XY. XL says ...
That's very interesting. We have similar words for this type of person in Portuguese but they are not pretty and they're definitely not suitable for this thread. You see, Latino people have very little tolerance for cowardice and indecisiveness
Ooooh! Share what these words are. Put them under a spoiler tag if you think it's necessary. Language exchange! I can add them to my repertoire whenever I need to call someone hèn and nhu nhược.
I don't have a lot of patience for people who act like perpetual victims and take zero accountability. No thank you. Go and be someone else's problem.
2) Jing finally does something:
If you think about he didn't actually do anything in either of these situations either. Just waited passively to die.
Some men are everything despite having nothing
While some men have everything and will still live and die being nothing :)
Should we do a comparison piece between Jing and Xiang Liu? If Jing looks bad on his own, just imagine him next to Xiang Liu ;-). He'll need to find a hole to crawl into.
People who are aware of this and still brush it off as if it were nothing scare me a little.
Indeed. Frankly, not everyone should become parents. It requires a lot of sacrifices and hard work. If you can think of abandoning your child for your partner, then you really should not have a child. Too many examples in the real world of this and it's the poor children that are left to deal with life-long scars.
This makes zero sense. Either he's not that intelligent and cunning to begin with, or he's pretending to be helpless as part of his manipulation tactics. None of those look good.
I think of it as he has enough intelligence and is unscrupulous enough to use underhanded manipulation tactics, but he's hampered by his spinelessness and cowardice and a host of other character defects. So when he faced a difficult situation that required assertiveness and resolve, he cowered. He doesn't want to deal with the potential fallout or take responsibility if things turn to shit. In fact, these things would make him more likely to use underhanded tactics instead of acting honourably. Like I said, he is not a junzi. Does that makes sense?
“Wasn’t that what Jing thought about Hou? He was Jing’s most trusted and beloved older brother. Until Hou did what he did, Jing was like you today, believing completely that Hou would never harm him. I thought Jing would turn cold and suspicious after what Hou did to him, and actions would be decisive and heartless, like both of us have become – but he didn’t! Gege, don’t you think that’s another kind of strength and courage? It appears different than us, but Jing is using his own method to defeat and overcome his suffering.”
So, this is where the idea of Jing's strength and courage comes from.
Does XY really believe Jing is actually DOING something with Hou to overcome his suffering? Cause again, he doesn't appear to be doing anything, but being passive. Does she not see that Jing is using HER to overcome his suffering?
46 minutes ago
AH :
“Wasn’t that what Jing thought about Hou? He was Jing’s most trusted and beloved older brother. Until Hou did what he did, Jing was like you today, believing completely that Hou would never harm him. I thought Jing would turn cold and suspicious after what Hou did to him, and actions would be decisive and heartless, like both of us have become – but he didn’t! Gege, don’t you think that’s another kind of strength and courage? It appears different than us, but Jing is using his own method to defeat and overcome his suffering.”
So, this is where the idea of Jing's strength and courage comes from.
The idea that TSJ's soft-heartedness was a form of strength is referenced there (in XY's words to CX in chapter 47) and in FFYY's thoughts in chapter 42.
-----
Chapter 42:
Hou stared at Yi Yang as the blood dripped from his chest, a mocking smile on his lips. “Is that the bow that I designed for you?”
“This is also something you gave me!” Yi Yang ripped off her black face veil and her face was completely shriveled and dried, without any blood or flesh. It was like dried skin directly plastered on bone, except her eyes were bright and shiny like a young girl, making the visage even more ghastly.
Hou made a noise and it wasn’t clear if he was trying to laugh or cry. “You’re saving him? You came to save him? If it wasn’t for him, we wouldn’t have ended up like this.”
“You should say that if it wasn’t for you, everything would be different!” Yi Yang glanced at Jing with conflicted emotions. She harmed him time and again but he chose to forgive her. She used to see his kindness as weakness but only after she was truly heartbroken did she understand that hating is easy but forgiving required a stronger vaster heart.
Does XY really believe Jing is actually DOING something with Hou to overcome his suffering? Cause again, he doesn't appear to be doing anything, but being passive.
The way I read it, XY was arguing to CX that (before he "died") TSJ continuously chose to "be someone who is warm, trusting, and kind" and to "be kind and good and forgiving" and to not "turn cold and suspicious" and to not be a person whose actions were "decisive and heartless", which she viewed as a kind of strength and courage given what TSJ had endured.
-----
Chapter 47:
I know how it can turn a person extreme, cold, suspicious, and how hard it is to be someone who is warm, trusting, and kind. But Jing did it! He showed me, proved to me, that no matter how others have treated us, we can choose to still be kind and good and forgiving. Gege, you might see him as weak and indecisive but you tell me, if one day I betrayed you in the worst way, can you just kill me afterwards?”
Zhuan Xu said with certainty, “You would never betray me or hurt me!”
“Wasn’t that what Jing thought about Hou? He was Jing’s most trusted and beloved older brother. Until Hou did what he did, Jing was like you today, believing completely that Hou would never harm him. I thought Jing would turn cold and suspicious after what Hou did to him, and actions would be decisive and heartless, like both of us have become – but he didn’t! Gege, don’t you think that’s another kind of strength and courage?
Does she not see that Jing is using HER to overcome his suffering?
IMO, TSJ was pretty candid with WXL in chapter 8 about the role that she played in helping him emotionally and psychologically (in addition to physically) after TSH's torture and dehumanization campaign.
So, this is where the idea of Jing's strength and courage comes from.
Does XY really believe Jing is actually DOING something with Hou to overcome his suffering? Cause again, he doesn't appear to be doing anything, but being passive. Does she not see that Jing is using HER to overcome his suffering?
I'm going to link you to my response to nathsketh's above. https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110123-xl-and-xy-story-and-romance-warning-spoilers?pid=2978951&page=502#p2978951
I wouldn't trust Xiao Yao's judgment when it comes to Jing. The fact that she saw him as husband material, someone she could entrust her life to, should tell ya how impaired her judgment was. Of course, Xiao Yao is allowed her choices and opinions, but as a reader, I don't have to agree with her. Neither does her choice/opinion automatically mean correct or healthy. The same goes for all the other characters. I think that when you evaluate a work, you can do it from a character's perspective, taking into account their set-up/limitations/knowledge etc. But then you also evaluated from a global perspective. I don't-evaluate Jing's from Xiao Yao's perspective - I don't gives a rat's ass that he couldn't live without her. I don't see that as his character's virtue. I see that as a huge flaw; a manifestation of his sickness and it just tells me that he has no growth whatsoever through out the the novel. And the fact that Xiao Yao sees it as a virtue/desirable is a manifestation of hers sickness.
The other thing about Xiao Yao is that she has this either/or thinking. You're either cold/heartless like CX and her or oh-so-kind (*snort*) like Jing. Girlfriend went from A straight to Z, skipping B C D E F G.......... Kindness and forgiveness are strengths, but she only sees those and seems blind to all of Jing's other instances of weaknesses. She clung on to him being forgiving because she feels reassured that he will also forgive her - it's her insecurity talking. It's like she doesn't get that you can find someone who is merciful and non-vindictive, but decisive and strong at the same time.
For me, it always comes down to action/behaviour when difficult choices need to be made. Words, intentions and others’ evaluation are secondary - it's your actions that are the most truthful barometer of who you are. Sometimes the options before you are horseshit and cow-dung, but how you make those choices showed your values and character.HeadInTheClouds:
Good characters are motivated by choice and the decisions they make or don't make. Jing spends a majority of his time (like XY) waiting to react to situations. This is the reason why thier characters don't grow.
However, someone with a strong sense of self is less impacted by external opinions; Jing's sense of self was weak and it was heavily reliant on how others saw him. Also note that it only took two years for Hou to “kill” Jing’s spirit driving him to the point of waiting for death. If you compare what Jing went through with what Xiang Liu, Xiao Yao and Cang Xuan went through what does this suggest about his character? To me, it shows weakness, a lack of fighting spirit and grit – probably from a combination of nature and nurture.
The novel didn't really delve into this, but in the drama, you can see that Jing have always has self esteem issues and codependency., reliant of Hou to assure his existence.
Jing promised Xiao Yao to back her up in the confrontation between her and Ah Nian and Cang Xuan.
In the drama, up until this very moment, I didn't have much of bad perception of Jing. I literally cried for XY twice (in the drama and again in the novel), and the humiliation she suffered by CX and Ahnian.
The infamous 15-year promise in Dragon Bone Prison. Jing has a fiancée, whether or not he wanted this fiancée is irrelevant to the fact that he was not a free man to make any promise or proposal to another woman.
I think Jing going ahead ad hoc with the oath goes to show how privileged he really is. Only the most privileged men can be engaged, get married, and feel entitled or free to ask another woman to wait for them, and then go on to have an affair with her. What's more disappointing is that XY is a princess; she literally can have anyone. She could've have XL even if its for a short time. But she choose to waste her time on Jing. The Gods really have to much time. Haha.
Jing “slept” for 37 years.
His reason for sleeping and wasting away was just so pathetic. At least Snow White and Sleeping Beauty ended up in there slumber against thier will. Lol. The more infuriating part is that XY comes to rescue him by reacting the actions of XL. So when she declared in her speech to CX that it was Jing who saved her, she was either stupid or lying to herself to justify her guilt. It was XL who showed her to take a step towards Jing. And it was XL who took the step towards her first, she was just to cowardly to accept it or she was just willfully blind or both.
The argument that Jing didn’t do this because it would only hurt Xiao Yao is not convincing.
I am a true believer in just ripping the band-aid off, dealing with something quickly even though it might be painful or difficult, rather than prolonging the discomfort. I feel that dragging out difficult situations in the long term will hurt more. So, while XY may have been hurt, she would have time to heal.
Even Cang Xuan felt ashamed for using Xiao Yao as a matrimonial price to help him gain power, and yet, Jing showed not a single sign of shame or embarrassment.
It's like his dad having an affair with his wife's maid. I couldn't help but feel second hand embarrassment for XY.
Snark zone ahead. Some mild language. And I also called Jing a rat. Multiple times! So be prepared for that as well :)
. That said, before the 15 year timeframe was interrupted by XY's assassination attempt, I don't think TSJ ever completely lost hope that he would be able to end the engagement within the 15 timeframe.
Why is Jing going around making promises based on the "hope" that he could deliver it? Don't write cheques unless you have money in your bank account. A cheque that can't be cashed is called "dishonoured" and that's the word to describe Jing when he makes a promise he "hopes" he can keep. I don't like to make promises unless I'm 99% sure that I'm capable of fulfilling them (the other 1% is for unforeseeable circumstances outside of my control), because it doesn't cost me anything to make this promise, but for the other person waiting for me to fulfil my promise it costs them time, lost opportunities, hope and trust should I fail to deliver. And what this promise cost XY was more than just not watching the latest Marvel movie at Imax before it got moved to normal screens.
And the timeframe was not interrupted by YX's assassination attempt. It was interrupted by Jing choosing to sleep for 37 years because he's a spineless coward. He could have stayed awake and resolved his issues, but he didn't. Personal failing doesn't count as unforeseeable circumstances.
Given all of that, should TSJ have told XY to forget the promise and pushed her away before the 15 year promise period was over as soon as he realized that he might not be able to keep his side of the bargain within the 15 year timeframe?
Yes. If you don't think you can deliver then stop robbing people of their time and opportunities any more than you already have. Don't let them become more invested so when you fail to deliver they will sustain even more damage. This is what an honourable, decisive, non-selfish person would do. But we know that Jing ain't any of those things. Pulling the plug at the 2, 3, and 4 years mark means 13, 12, and 11 years where XY could move on and "heal" from the broken promise.
If he had done so, I don't think that would have resulted in XY being happier. I think it would have resulted in XY feeling hurt and abandoned yet again.
Allow me to translate this into plain speech, "I didn't do the honourable/selfless/right thing by you, but it's for your own benefits/good". Or how about, "I didn't do the honourable/selfless/right thing by you because I knew you couldn't handle it. I knew how damaged you were and this would only trigger your abandonment issues again. So, you see XY, it was your fault that I did what I did". Way to go with blaming XY for your failures to act honourably, Jing.
The fact that Jing knew how his failure to deliver on this promise would negatively affect XY is all the more reason why he should not have asked for it in the first place. But he knew, and he still asked - because he's selfish. And now, to use her issues to justify his further dishonourable and selfish behaviour? It's really not a good look.
After the 37 years of healing, TSJ was forced to become clan leader and failed (again) to convince his grandmother to break off his engagement. Should he have started to push XY away at that point? IMO, it would not have been logical for him to do so. At that point, XY was more invested in their relationship than she ever had been before.
If he had done the right thing earlier, XY wouldn't have become even more invested in their relationship. And now, he continues to use this to justify his own shitty actions. Funny how it's always to his benefit. He acted dishonourably to start with and at every subsequent point, his own cowardice and selfishness compounded the issues which he then justified with "It will only hurt XY if I do the right thing now". A little too convenient for me. Just because XY was desperate enough to buy his bullshit, it doesn't mean that I will.
IMO he should have told XY what happened during the cloud carriage ride to Qing Qiu. Although I acknowledge that disclosing that kind of news while two people are trapped in a flying vehicle would not have been ideal.
He had 3 months. That's 90 days. Even if I'm generous and gave him 1 month to get his big girl panties on, that still gave him 60 days to Uber or Cab it to inform XY. That trip would take like, what, 3-4 hours max? 60x24 = 1440 hours. That would still give Jing 1436 hours to mope and cry afterwards. What stopped him? Oh, that's right. Lack of a spine.
After the interrupted wedding, XY was alone with XL/FFB for over a month in chapter 32, and TSJ didn't try to find her or to keep her away from XL/FFB
Should I give him credit for not being totally pathetic? And what exactly does this prove anyway? That Jing wasn't selfish and was "generous" to allow XY to spend time with XL? What could Jing do anyway? Sent people after Xiang Liu? He would know that Xiang Liu is not easy to deal with so that would just be a fool's errand, and XY would just see him for the pathetic man that he is with that move. Bonus! Too much of a coward to actually take real action.
When XY wanted to treat his illness and to help him take down TSH and FFYY in chapter 33, should TSJ have pushed XY away at that point, given that he was still not free?
Yes. This is just a repetition of that 15-year promise. Jing is still not a free man, and he really should deal with his crap first before hooking XY back in. Whenever a man tells me that he's in the process of getting separated from his wife, but that he will totally be free so I still should give him a chance. I know I found myself a rat. No difference here.
Jing had a chance to make an honourable choice here to redeem himself for that original dishonourable, selfish act, but once again his selfishness came through. Luckily for Jing, this time XY had wisened up and realised that unless she did it, he probably would flop like he did the first time. Also luckily for Jing, XY was damaged enough and desperate enough that she didn't see him for the garbage that he is, so she willingly debased herself to seduce his brother to free him up to be with her. This self-serving, spineless and shameless rat just stood by while the woman that he "loves" subjected herself to his brother's leering attention and opened herself to public gossip and ridicule. All to solve his problem for him. What a prince!
If TSJ had also pushed her away at that point... IMO that would have just led to XY feeling even more abandoned, sad and in pain. Whereas repairing her relationship with TSJ (and taking TSH and FFYY down) helped XY resolve some of the sadness and pian she was carrying.
But once those words had been spoken, they couldn't be unspoken. The cat was out of the bag and TSJ could only deal with the subsequent circumstances as they unfolded.
Please see points 4 and 3 above. All I see is continued self-serving justifications. If I notice that I'm constantly making excuses and justifying someone's behaviour, I know I've been taken for a ride. Jing can miss me with his bullshit.
After XY finds out about the pregnancy, TSJ doesn't suggest breaking up, but accepts it when XY ends their relationship. Honestly, I think it's better for XY to have been the one to end things between them. Similar to her whole thing about it being better to be the person who leaves rather than being the person who is left.
Nah! This isn't Jing being thoughtful, this is just Jing continuing his pattern of cowardice and selfishness. It's similar to how he stays quiet when faced with a difficult question that he doesn't want to answer. As long as he doesn't say/do anything, then the responsibility is on the other person to respond. If the response benefits him then that's great; if not then he gets to wash his hands of responsibility and even claim generosity like with this particular interpretation here. Watch out for people who do this in real life. An honourable, up-standing person won't pull this bullshit.
And then when he was forced to accept the position of Tushan clan leader (rather than leaving the clan), he thought that his grandmother was going to die soon, and once she was gone he would have had more control over calling off the engagement.
Jing really was making that promise to XY based on hope and prayer. Waiting for his grandmother to shuffle off the mortal coil so that he could have more control over calling off the engagement. So he knew he didn't have control to start with. Like I said, don't write cheques unless you have money in your bank account. Acting dishonourably right at the starting point, then when the issues compounded because he couldn't deal with them, he continue to make selfish choices to hang on to XY and using her own issues to justify his shitty actions. XY caught herself a rat disguised as a prince. Actually, it should be XY got caught by a rat disguised as a prince. Prayer circle for XY.
And for Jing...
:-)
Being kind is a virtue, but sometimes a rat is just a rat and some rat's spray is advisable.
Good characters are motivated by choice and the decisions they make or don't make. Jing spends a majority of his time (like XY) waiting to react to situations. This is the reason why thier characters don't grow.
They both were really passive. Jing moreso than XY. The deeper I dig into this book the more frustrated and claustrophobic it makes me feel. XY is a very frustrating lead. It's like her world is incredibly narrow and she just spins her wheels waiting for other people to make choices for most of the novel. And her trauma constantly tripped her up and it's like I'm expected to accept this and see her poor choices as "good". Where's the grit? Where's the fight to change and grow?
The novel didn't really delve into this, but in the drama, you can see that Jing have always has self esteem issues and codependency., reliant of Hou to assure his existence.
Do you mean co-dependency on Hou to assure his existence before he transferred it to Xiao Yao? I thought the set-up of his character - the identity that was based on external factors (his Qing Qiu Master moniker) was pretty clear in the novel. I admit that I didn't watch the drama very closely beyond XL's scenes. Jing is unpleasant and DW's acting really didn't help.
I think Jing going ahead ad hoc with the oath goes to show how privileged he really is. Only the most privileged men can be engaged, get married, and feel entitled or free to ask another woman to wait for them, and then go on to have an affair with her.
I never look at this situation through this particular lens, but I definitely can see it. Jing is privileged. He was born with a golden spoon in his mouth and had everything given to him. The whole sneaking around thing that those two did and some people justified with it being love. Apparently as long as it's because of love, you can do anything.
His reason for sleeping and wasting away was just so pathetic.
And yet, some people praised this action! Can you imagine if you fall into a coma due to an accident and your partner decided to go into a coma because he couldn't live without you? Leaving behind all his responsibilites. I'd be thinking, WTH? XY being so moved by it just showed that she aint right in the head.
So when she declared in her speech to CX that it was Jing who saved her, she was either stupid or lying to herself to justify her guilt.
Ha! If we leave it up to Jing, she would have become a chargrilled XY. If XL didn't use their Bugs connection to sustain her heartbeat, she would have been dead as a doornail. And even if we give Jing the credit of the devastating power, his act of sitting there awaiting death instead of trying to get them out of there would have resulted in 2 chragrilled corpses. He made no attempt to protect her from the flame, he waited for the flame to consume them both. He got lucky that Cang Xuan and his people came in time. Author's plot device to have his power preserved her body.
And XY knew what transpired during the 37 years. Her thoughts to herself when XL took her on their little undersea excursion during Cang Xuan's wedding pretty much tells us that she was aware. But anything to justify her continue choice of Jing since he'd promise to never leave her. Girlfriend used her trauma as a shield instead of trying to overcome and be better. She and Jing are 2 peas in a pod.
I am a true believer in just ripping the band-aid off, dealing with something quickly even though it might be painful or difficult, rather than prolonging the discomfort. I feel that dragging out difficult situations in the long term will hurt more. So, while XY may have been hurt, she would have time to heal.
Yes. Dragging things out is just wasting precious time that could be spend moving on. It's also just self-serving justification for being selfish. It reminded me of an experience where this guy that I was seeing told me the reason that he didn't tell me that he was married with kids was because he was in the process of separating from his wife and he didn't want me to get upset. Apparently it was my fault, if I wouldn't have got upset, he would have told me. Do I look like I was born yesterday, fool?
It's like his dad having an affair with his wife's maid. I couldn't help but feel second hand embarrassment for XY.
That whole situation was icky. That scene where XY was acting all flirty at the party made my skin crawl. And she did it for 6 months as well. 6 months of dealing with Hou leering and fending off his advances. If she was one of my friends or nieces I would have smack sense into her. And kick Jing into the sun. Girl! Are you so desperate and hard-up for a man that you would debase yourself like this? I wondered why Cang Xuan or her dad didn't smack some sense into her. And the fact that she was so proud of herself for it too?
I kept on thinking as well that with Xiang Liu, she's protected There was no way that Xiang Liu, or even Cang Xuan would have agree to this plan of hers. And yet, with Jing, she's the one who has to do the protecting and solving his problems. To the point of debasing yourself like this. I just feel sad for her that because of her psychological deficiencies she gave up her chance with Xiang Liu to chose Jing - a pathetic excuse of a man. What a tragedy. Girlfriend should stop looking for a forever companion and focus on getting some therapy instead.
Frustratingly, all his actions require the drive and intelligence of others (CX and FL), and the solving of his own personal problems in the hands of more capable characters (XY and XL).
Yes. His "happy ending" was achieved by other people for him. The author got rid of his grandmother. Can you imagine if she hasn't? Jing would still be weeping for the next few hundred years. And even if he managed to marry XY, his grandmother would have made XY's life hell. XY handed the solution to the issue of Hou and FFYY to him on a silver platter. He just added the garnishes. XL saved his ass, otherwise, he would have been swimming with the fishes. And finally, poor TSZ was forced by Jing to sacrifice his childhood to facilitate Jing's "happy ending". Pathetic doesn't even begin to describe this character.
However, Tu Shan Jing has a pattern of failing to fulfill commitments.
This should be carved onto Jing's tombstone.
Ultimately, he failed to fulfill his role as a father to Tu Shan Zhen in order to remain with XY.
This is Jing most disgusting act. Jing really knows how to make an impression throughout the novel. In the beginning, it was the 15-year promise. At the half-way mark, it was the waiting to die and sleeping like a wuss, a little further along we got the waiting to die again and having XY's solve his problem for him by a very emasculating method, and at the end of the novel - his crowning glory - sacrificing a child to satisfy his dreams of being XY's sla.., I mean companion. Charming! Character development is worse than zero - he actually manages to go backward with that final act. Amazing!
How can someone who consistently fails to follow through be deemed worthy of a lifelong partnership?
He found himself the most damaged and desperate woman in Da Huang! She couldn't see what a ratbag he was and thought she got herself a man.
In the ongoing conflict between the Xiyan Empire and the remnants of the Chenrong army, he has engaged in business dealings on both sides.
His claim of supporting Cang Xuan out of ideal is bullshit. This man is self-serving through and through. A merchant at his core. Double dealings as long as it benefits him. Principles are secondary to the profits being made.
Additionally, he has been credited as the financier of gambling dens that host demon slave fights.
This must be Jing's motto. Gross.
Jing was well aware of this, yet he contradicts his kind and compassionate persona by using the lives of thousands of men as leverage.
Jing is self-serving. Like I said, it's easy to be kind when it doesn't cost you anything. Sacrificing something that you care about for another, then we'll talk. Jing said it himself to Feng Long - "I only gave up the things I don’t care about. What I really want I never once let you have.” Him giving Feng Long the credit concerning Cang Xuan actually benefits him. It puts Feng Long in his debt, and it provides him with an ace against Cang Xuan down the line. Someone as straightforward as Feng Long wouldn't hide the truth forever. This wouldn't be such a big deal if his kindness didn't get trotted out at every opportunity to excuse his failures.
TSJ is determined to fail at becoming the man he ought to be. In the end, he finds himself as the man XY wanted: a weak person who would not dare to abandon her. He will also become dependent on her to literally keep him alive, as he has become weak and sickly.
XY's desire for such a partner is born out of her sickness. Being with someone like Jing will just perpetuate her illness rather than help her to grow. Jing keeps himself sickly so that he can be with XY is a reflection of his own sickness. His metaphorical emasculation at the end by Hou just reflects the fact that he is an emasculated man - spineless and cowardly.
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