I'm sorry, but I can't understand this overrating of HJP. Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. He was indeed…
First off, I feel your words carry a micro-aggressive tone, and I wanted to believe you were portraying a neutral, or an open view. But in your review, you started with the words “Don’t listen to these biased haters” Ahh, that’s all I need to know where you stood in this whole thing. But regardless, I will respect your view, and I will take the time to respond to your long subjective post, with my own subjective post, sprinkled with objective facts. Also it’s not lost to me that you creative this account, just to give Start Up a great score and at the same time lambaste the so called “haters” of the show, but anyway…
For this post, I will be using the style of responding to each of your points in quotations. I feel this is a more organized way of writing and counter arguing, and will add needed clarity to our hopefully fruitful discussion.
I apologize ahead of time, this will be a long post. I hope you show me the respect I showed you and actually read all of it, and not just skim through it. I’ve had a lot of fruitless discussion with NDS fan’s who don’t show me the respect of reading my whole reply. Without further ado, let us begin...
“I'm sorry, but I can't understand this overrating of HJP. Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings”
I wouldn’t worry too much about hurting HJP fan’s feelings, most of us here are quite mature and can accept criticism of HJP. I can at least speak for myself, that even if you called HJP the most toxic Kdrama character in history, I would not be offended, I would simply respond with my own opinions on your assertions.
It also makes sense that you cannot see HJP’s many great qualities, and instead manifest flaws, that only a few see. This is because you prefer NDS over HJP, and since these two fictional characters are in contention for SDM’s heart, it would make sense that you will feel that NDS, your preferred end game, would look better in comparison. This is just human nature, nothing more, nothing less. So let’s move along.
“He was indeed a great character, but he was harsh, "looking down", arrogant and narcisstic. There were times when I wanted to punch his nasty smirk face even more than ML.”
This statement seems a bit paradoxical and hypocritical. You claim he was a great character, but then you feel he has all these major flaws, that you wanted to punch him. I think what you meant to say is that HJP is a complex and interesting character, and that the actor KSH played him so amazingly, that you felt like punching HJP, because of how the actor KSH made you feel.
The only part I would agree with is that HJP is a complex and interesting character. I don’t agree with the rest of your statement, and I’m going to go into detail here of why. Let us first discuss the three adjectives you use to describe HJP, and I will also look into the “Smirk” that angered you so much.
Harsh and Looking Down– I think a lot of how we deal with the Kdrama’s we watch is based on our own personal beliefs. As I cannot speak for you, since I don’t know you, I will speak about myself instead. I am in my early 30’s and an Asian female. Now, to be entirely honest, I don’t find the way HJP presents himself as harsh at all, if anything it’s very common to see this type of language being spoken from senior members of society towards more junior members. And this is much more apparent in Korean society, where your birth order is very important. That is why honorifics like Unnie, Oppa, Hyung, and Noona are important in Korean society, because of the respect the juniors MUST have for their seniors. In that same Korean society, the seniors are not actually expected to show the same respect, in fact in corporate Korea, the seniority can at times be quite extreme and border along the lines of western type of Hazing.
I am not Korean, so in my culture this is not as bad, but there is still an emphasis on seniority and respect for elders, even if that person is only 3-4 years older than me. It is a societal expectation.
The advice that HJP gives NDS may appear harsh to you and some people, but for me, he is being pragmatic, he is not sugar coating the truth. He is giving advice based on realistic simulations, real life experience, and his expertise in the field. I found the advice to be quite realistic in the sense that he never tells NDS to give up on his dreams, or to just go quit being a programmer, instead he challenges NDS on his flaws, he points out his short comings, and he even gives him advice on what path he needs to go.
Of course to a dreamer like NDS, this does not sound good, because as a dreamer, what makes you happy Is when someone says how great your dreams are, and how amazing your product is. But in reality HJP says it best “those people are not interested in you, that is why they are being nice to you, I am interested, and that is why I’m being honest” This line is later parroted by Chairman Yoo in the later episodes, she uses the same words, but in albeit softer tone, which should not matter, since the message is the same. This line form both Chairman Yoo and HJP is probably the single most important line that people can learn from the show. That you should be wary of people who keeps telling you how amazing you are, and instead listen to the ones who are honest with you, regardless of how painful the truth sounds. But, I’m Asian, and I’ve been surrounded by the harsh Asian society for most of my life, and because of this, I have become more mentally resilient. I get a lot of this harshness from my parents as well. I’m sure you’ve at least heard of Tiger parenting? Harshness as you call it, is just a potentially good message, being clouded in a strong tone, and less than ideal words. So once again, due to my own personal experience, I find HJP not to be harsh at all, just pragmatic and a realist not willing to sugar coat things. In fact, this all ties in with HJP’s backstory. As an orphan, you are taught very early to grow up and mistrust the world. You learn very early that the world isn’t all candies and cake, and life is harsh. So the way I see it, HJP sees NDS, sees his lack of ambition, and his dreamer mentality, and he just wanted to temper all that with realism, since HJP himself has learned the hard way, nothing is that easy. And this view from HJP is very relatable to most people, because life is indeed harsh, and we can’t all be as lucky as SST and see good fortunes just fall into our lap like that.
SDM best explains this when she says the odds of NDS being discovered by Alex is one in ten million. Just an FYI, the odds of winning the lottery has been calculated at 1 in 13 million. SDM is clearly saying NDS is very lucky here. Which he is, and the audience agrees that SST has been lucky throughout the show’s runs.
Looking Down – You have to remember HJP is in a high position with an investment firm that has responsibility to its clientele. This isn’t a law firm where you can just do pro bono cases for charity. This is a company where when clients lose money because the company makes bad investment, people get angry, people get sued, and sometimes people get violent. So in light of this, HJP tends to err on the safer side when choosing which investment SH ventures will do, and it looks like he is very good at his job considering how high his position and how large his bonus is at the beginning of the show. So what you take as “looking down” is just him being realistic with NDS and SST. They lack many factors that a successful start-up needs; In fact, they cannot answer the question that most investment professionals will ask. “How do you monetize your product”? How can any start up create a blueprint of success if they cannot convince VC money, which they need, how their product will be profitable? If you think VC companies are all just warm teddy bears whose biggest concern is how to save the forest while losing money, then you don’t understand how VC companies work.
Also, what is lost to many NDS fans is that HJP actually changes his stance on SST at around Ep. 3 at the 1 hour, 5 minute mark. The thing about HJP is that he is an character that has showed consistent character growth since episode 1. And he is a character that is willing to admit if he has made a mistake, and even willing to give due when it is deserved or earned.
Arrogant – There is a thing line between arrogance and confidence, and for you, he crosses the line into arrogance for most of the show. But for me, he is right on that line, with leanings into confidence. A lot of the words he says, a lot of the advice he gives is because of his confidence in his abilities. To people who are insecure like NDS and SST, this simply comes off as pure arrogance, but for people who are willing to learn, willing to improve, and are secure in themselves like SDM, this simply comes as advice from a confident person.
It’s like on Facebook, you will see people in sales, post about their achievements, the milestones they have hit, how much money they have made even. If you are insecure about the money you have earned that year, or are insecure about yourself in general, there is a very real possibility you will call this person arrogance, boastful, and even malicious. But if your secure in yourself, then you can just appreciate that person for their achievements, or even heed and ask their advice on how they reached such milestones.
Narcissistic – First let me place the google definition of a narcissistic personality Narcissistic personality disorder involves a pattern of self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, a lack of empathy and consideration for other people, and an excessive need for admiration.
Now we apply this definition to HJP. I will denote a Yes or No, based on my personal opinion of whether or not I noticed it. Feel free to argue if you feel otherwise.
1. Self Centered – Nope, the fact that HJP’s job is to help startups, and he becomes a mentor to SDM proves he is not. He even runs to help SST stop getting acqhired. He has a lot of selfless deeds that really go unnoticed.
2. Arrogant thinking and Behaviour – I’ve already explained this in the adjective of arrogance, I don’t find HJP an arrogance character at all.
3. Lack of Empathy and Consideration for other people – Also no, at the very least he is considerate of SDM, and we see this with how he interacts with her. He also empathizes with Halmoni, and in many ways is considerate of SST as a company. He even is considerate of NDS actions during his confession to SDM, where he tells SDM about how NDS actions were not because of HJP.
4. An excessive need for admiration – Also no, if this was the case, then all of HJP’s good deeds, he would be shouting it at the top of the world, looking for praise. He does not. He does the good deeds expecting not much in return.
“Indeed, he was helping the team, but he never showed it to others”
This is why a lot of people felt he was very self-less. He helped people not to gain praise or admiration, he did it because he was either being self-less, or he was being professional in doing his job.
NDS varies greatly here. When NDS does something, he has to go out and tell people of what he had did, to either gain praise or sympathy. If it’s not him doing it, it’s one of his friends, or his parents. For HJP, a lot of his good deeds go unnoticed, he doesn’t feel the need to go out and shout it out to the world. This is in line with HJP’s personality of being selfless and not using accolades as the motivating force to do good, he just does it. Even if by doing good, it hurts him, he still does it, because HJP is a “Good Boy”. We rarely if ever see HJP angsting, or acting pitiful to gain sympathy from SDM, he suffers alone for the most part, except for a few scenes where he breaks down with Halmoni.
“He wasn't supportive in the way others needed support. I think writer did that intentionally.”
This is your subjective opinion. It’s funny how Yong San and SDM disagree with you. Using dialogue from the show, here is some truth bombs.
Yong San: We don’t need empty compliments right now, what we need now is your honest criticism.
SDM: I want facts, not a future filled with hopes and dreams that will never come. I want reality, I want your objective and honest opinion.
Sounds to me this completely contradicts your statement. HJP was providing them the needed support, but it took maturity and failure to open their eyes and realize his support is the support they needed all along. They were too stuck in their dreamer mentality that they became shocked when the bubble popped; because just like all dreams, you eventually wake up from it.
“Yes, good in heart, but harsh outside. Understandable past. But you can't deny pretty bad things he done and forgive him on only being an orphan in the past.”
If you are normalizing NDS behaviour, why can’t you offer the same for HJP? You think NDS violence is a small matter, but the so called “bad things” that HJP did is not forgivable? Also, what exactly are the bad things that HJP has done?
Being an orphan doesn’t excuse bad behaviour. The orphan backstory just helped us realize and reflect on the difficulty of HJP’s life, and give audience even bigger motivation to wish for HJP’s happy ending.
I can also say the same thing for NDS. His parents were strict so he lied to them for 15 years, wasted their money, and is aloof from them and doesn’t call them for 3 years? Yeah that’s even more unforgiveable that whatever you feel HJP has done, which is not much.
“I had more love towards Dosan. Even after first few episodes, when he revealed his "anger issues", which wasn't even a matter, but a good laugh from time to time, and understandable behaviour.”
You laughed at NDS angers issues, and felt this is normal? All I can say is WOW… “He wasn't a bad character at all, and fans outshining HJP and putting every other character in garbage is awful.”
NDS was a poorly written, mentally weak ML that was outshined by the goodness of HJP. That is an assertion that is supported by the majority. On most online polls, at least 70% of fans support HJP. This reflects societal values, and how people thought HJP had more to root for than NDS.
Also, not all the characters were bad. Yong San and Cheul San actually had their good moments. Even though SDM was weakly written in the later episodes, she had her moments also, and is generally likeable. Same for Saha and the side characters. Only NDS is the really unlikeable ML.
“HJP deserved A LOT of what he got. And I haven't seen him being "punchbag", atleast for first 10 episodes. Apart from comedic and funny moments (if nitpicking him from time to time as a comedy element is "punchbag", which outrages his fans, I don't really know what to say). His story was great, heartbreaking, but heartwarming as well. He portrayed his character (atleast for me) just as I said. He wasn't very good in terms of relations to other.”
Not quite sure what you are saying here, but HJP basically is the sandbox of SDM and SST. He selflessly save them, even when they were pushing him away. And when they didn’t need him, he was cast aside. The way SST and SDM treats HJP, is the same way NDS treats his parents. It’s not a very healthy relationship. What kept most fans continue watching is the hopes that HJP’s constant selflessness would end up with some sort of happy ending. But until the end, he just became their eternal sandbox.
“Regarding relationships of kdrama in general - really liked the way they are portrayed in the show - not perfect, challenging, but realistic.”
Start Up is as fluffy as fluffy as it can be. There was no real challenges faced by the ML, except the invisible barriers constructed by their minds. The ML was created imperfect for the first 6 episodes, but quickly fixed to be your typical ML perfection by Ep.7. And a lot of the gripe of the show has been the unrealistic portrayal of relationships, startups, family dynamics, and etc…
“Not something behind the bars mattered, but something on the scene - and HJP on the scene were mostly looking as pretty harsh to others. As a viewer, you wanted to hug him or whatever, but it was understandable that he couldn't recieve anticipated by fans if he didn't broke "the wall" he had towards people around him and change. Yes, he had a past that explains it. But he couldn't make it. It was intentionally, and it played out greatly.”
Not sure what you are saying here.
“Regarding letters, he wasn't even sincere in them, putting first thing to come in mind. He never developed feelings for Dalmi till somewhere in the middle of the show.”
He clearly had feelings for SDM for a much longer time. The fact that his last line to SDM is “Your letters were a source of comfort for me” You know who else fell in love because the letters were a comfort to her? That’s right SDM. What may have started out as initially a chore, eventually became something he looked forward to, and it eventually blossomed into love. Just because it’s not shown on screen, doesn’t’ meant the audience does not feel it. “And she never seen him in this light”.
He was never really given the chance, HJP screen time and presence with SDM was severely cut.
“On par, Dosan, were found more vulnerable by me and I couldn't do anything but root for him. He had problems, he were too emotional sometimes, but it was all intended, and it DID play out well in the show. I really don't know what anyone else expected, but writer did a great job for me.”
Key word here being “For you”. “For me”, this wasn’t the case. I found it difficult to relate to any of NDS actions.
“This writer does it quite differently than others, so if you watch too many kdramas at once, perhaps you may end up getting wrong impression. If Dalmi would develop romantic relations with Han Ji Pyeong, I believe it'd be super anticlimatic and end up in a boring piece of series like Secretary Kim, TKEM or Her Private Life. Or maybe something like Love O2O, where characters constantly compliment each other and everything is a boring setting”
Interesting you think this, since the whole time, everyone was just praising NDS and complimenting him. I guess you think Start Up is boring them based on your definition.
“And oh, how you can deny dynamics of the show. Things were dragging few times, but dynamics were always there. In every scene. Little expressions, dialogues, jokes. There were plenty of stuff told about Start Up and business for a kdrama, and especially for a rom-com. I found myself some handy things as well. The business ideas never felt rushed and cringy, and felt like possible things that could work. I really liked that. It was never boring, there were almost none dull moments.”
I did not rate poorly due to being bored by it. I rated poorly for the reasons I stated in my review. Did you read my review? I explained it quite well.
Someone asked me what shows i thought was better than start up. So here's is my list. Agree or disagree?
I haven't watched a lot of Kdrama, but these dramas alone I would rank higher than Start Up, in no particular order.
1. Greatest Love 2. Jealousy Incarnate 3. When the Camellia Blooms 4. Crash Landing On You 5. Pasta 6. It's Okay That's Love 7. Welcome to Waikiki 1 and 2 8. Run on (ongoing, but already feels a lot better, and will most likely get a higher rating from me) 9. Mr. Queen (ongoing, but already feels a lot better, and will most likely get a higher rating from me) 10. My Love from the Star 11. Master's Sun 12. My Golden Life 13. 18 Again 14. My Greasy Melo 15. Goblin 16. Let's Eat 1 and 2 17. What's Wrong With Secretary Kim 18. Oh My Venus
Basically, this is all the Kdramas I've seen or partly seen, and I find them all much better than Start Up. The only Kdrama i've seen that I would say is worst than Start Up is TKEM, and I rated that one lower than Start Up as well.
I'm sorry, but I can't understand this overrating of HJP. Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. He was indeed…
" I mean, it would be great if you could name me few romcoms or basically popular or not so kdramas in other genre that you rated far more than this one. Maybe I watched them and I could tell where our difference of experiencing kdramas are :)"
Ok, I'm going to reply to this with a long post that details and replies to all the points you have brought up. I hope you will take the time to read it. But I don't have the time to write it now. I'll just reply to your last sentence since it's the quickest.
I haven't watched a lot of Kdrama, but these dramas alone I would rank higher than Start Up, in no particular order.
1. Greatest Love 2. Jealousy Incarnate 3. When the Camellia Blooms 4. Crash Landing On You 5. Pasta 6. It's Okay That's Love 7. Welcome to Waikiki 1 and 2 8. Run on (ongoing, but already feels a lot better, and will most likely get a higher rating from me) 9. Mr. Queen (ongoing, but already feels a lot better, and will most likely get a higher rating from me) 10. My Love from the Star 11. Master's Sun 12. My Golden Life 13. 18 Again 14. My Greasy Melo 15. Goblin 16. Let's Eat 1 and 2 17. What's Wrong With Secretary Kim 18. Oh My Venus
Basically, this is all the Kdramas I've seen, and I find them all much better than Start Up. The only Kdrama i've seen that I would say is worst than Start Up is TKEM, and I rated that one lower than Start Up as well.
arghh...binge watchers really did us dirty with their ratings8.1 ? really ?
You want to know something interesting? 5 of Suzy's dramas all went up by .2 - .3 points. Coincidence? Maybe...
NJH's drama actually did not go up by much, some of it actually went down...
I don't know anymore with MDL, a bunch of dramas went way up and some went way down.
But Start Up is the same rating of shows I consider superior. And that's the thing about ratings, internally, we compare it to shows we've seen in the past.
The thing is Start Up for me wasn't even an average Rom Com. Welcome to waikiki 2 is rated the same rating, and after having watched that, as fluffy as it was, it had a coherent plot and consistent characters. Not even adding the fact that Waikiki 2 was really funny, and the chemistry between KSH and MGY was much hotter than NDS and SDM.
Jealousy Incarnate is a FAR superior product, with a better done love triangle as well. And it's only rated 8.2? LOL!
IMO, for the purposed of using the rating system of 10's
I think your average romcom should be rated an 8. Amazing romcoms like Mr. Queen should get an 8.5. Deeper romcoms like Run on deserves an 8.6-8.7.
And poor quality writing like Start Up should be around 7.5-7.8. It's only 8.1 because of the hype I guess. I mean even TKEM which is just as bad is 8.
And I think this is the reality of MDL, the more popular a show's stars is the higher the rating will be. Unless your The Heirs, lol!
For me the predictability came after Ep. 7. To place such a passionate kiss, it meant that the showrunners can end the love triangle then and there, but they extended it for another 8 episodes, for whatever reason.
Knowing the end game so early on, it made no sense why the show couldn't focus more on the business or family aspect more. To make matters worse, they really messed up everyone's character by making them do dumb things and out of character decisions.
** Many viewers complain about how superficial and unrealistic the startup scenes are depicted there - Personally, I don’t fully agree. Though I agree the writers could have toned down the path to success slightly in later episodes, I liked how all key elements are incorporated. Some of the tough aspects are shown in Mr. Seo’s story or the early days of San Sam Tech. If you want to watch stories of real-life startups I am sure there are tons of drama/ documentaries for you to watch. Don’t waste your time on a 16 episode Korean drama full of pretty actors/ actresses, hope and dreams. I think this should have been clear when the ML walks into FL’s life like Cinderella in episode 2.
Nobody is denying the the first 6 episodes paved the way for the possibility of Start Up being one of the better shows of 2020. In fact many people raved about episode 1 for how much emotion it invoked. So all those things showing the hardships or startups and the technical aspects, occurred during the first 6 episodes. And people watch technical dramas for some amount of realism. It's like, imagine watching Dr. Romantic, and seeing them cure bacterial infection with some ibruprophen. People who know this won't work, will lambast the technical aspect of the show. When a show uses actual Tech terms, actual companies, and actual people in it's plot, it's obviously trying to invoke some sort of realism, so you can't discount peoples need for realism in Kdrama. People are not even asking for hyper realism, just semi-accuracy, which the show failed to live up to.
** Female lead becomes someone who is solely dependent on her choice of a man - I don’t know why many think this way, at the end, the FL was doing a great job working for her sister In Jae. She is hard-working, smart, ambitious, and dares to dream - she would have been a successful start-up CEO wherever she goes and would not have needed a man...
Hmmm, SDM starts off as a quick witted retail employee without any experience. Through her moxie, she is able to move past certain hindrances. But let's not pretend that she would have gotten where she is right now if not for her connections to NDS, HJP and WIJ. NDS had a very biased reason for hiring SDM as the CEO of SST. WIJ, also hired SDM based on nepotism really, something prevalent in Korea and parts of Asia.
Claiming that SDM would have been a successful start up CEO whereever she goes, is a big assumption. I made this thought in the comment section, and I will repeat it here. SDM has not shown in the show how she is a competent CEO, even up until the last few episodes, she was still making a lot of mistakes, and there were far too many things she didn't know. The difference of WIJ and SDM in terms of skill became so much clearer whenever they shared the same screen.
And, there are at least 5 times when NDS comes to "Save" SDM from tough situations. But that is the main grip of the critics, why does an independent woman like SDM, need NDS to save her everytime things get tough? A lot of the situations she was in, she did not need saving, and in fact, her getting out of the sticky situation would have shown the audience she had the skill necessary to be a competent CEO. But instead of seeing character growth from SDM, we instead see, someone who needs a man to save her whenever the going gets tough.
Imagine if Sheryl Sandberg, the CEO of Facebook, needed her CTO to answer the tough questions for her when she is being interviewed. Or always needing her husband to defend her, when a rival CEO is saying some mean things to her? Sheryl Sandberg would LOSE so much integrity ad a CEO, and this is the truth more so in the male dominated tech industry. Notice in the meeting of Alex with NDS and SDM, he shakes NDS hands first. Normally in most business meeting, you shake the hands of the CEO first, as a sign of respect.
** ML becomes useless without the FL. - Well first, he is not really useless but just realizes how much she means to him. That the fame and the money he dreamt of isn't that interesting if he is all by himself. In the end, the Dal Mi really helped SST to get to where they were in the first place. Though I agree it's slightly exaggerated but isn’t this what we all want to see from the ML in a Korean romance drama?
I don't know if the ML was useless, but people had a problem with the ML making the FL his dream, trophy, and goal. It comes off as quite exhausting and obsessive. The ML and FL essentially had a co-dependent relationship, where the FL enabled the bad behavior of the ML. None of the questionable acts of the ML is questioned by the FL, instead it's romanticized. Kdrama or not, people do not appreciate these kinds of relationships.
NDS makes us think that SDM had a big part to SST success, but from the viewers perspective, she does not. After the time skip, you can argue she became more important, but prior to it, most people thought she really did not add too much value. And this became more blatant when compared to WIJ, and seeing her being "saved' constantly by someone. Going back to my Sheryl Sandberg example.
** It's a useless triangle, and the drama is abusing 2nd ML. - We shall recall that the Han Jin Pyong did not visit her after he found her again. He also did not admit his feeling to her and kept on being warm and cold with her. On the other hand, Nam Do San has been drawn to FL the moment he saw her and there are countless moments at which Do San did things for FL without hidden agenda, such as appearing at the event for her. For me, it was very clear, that Han Jin Pyong, although being a very loveable character and supportive mentor to the FL, did not have any chance. I found the maker did a great job by having Han Jin Pyong realizing exactly that and open the path for Nam Do San and Dal Mi to become happy. What do you want from a love who does not love you back?
HJP's last line to SDM feels so forced to be honest. Keep in mind HJP is already being selfless at this point and pushing NDS to SDM, so who knows what the letters really meant, or what did before, no time or backstory is ever given to it.
There are things NDS does for SDM without hidden agenda, BUT there are also things he does WITH hidden agenda. A clear problem of the love triangle was how useless it was to have it in the first place, and how long it lasted for.
For most shows I know with a shipping far, Start Up is probably the show with the biggest imbalance of people rooting for NDS versus HJP. When Suzy and NJH themselves admit via interview that they feel uncomfortable with NDS actions, then that is saying a lot. The writer wrote NDS too weak of a ML, and HJP too strong of a SML, that's the reality of things.
Also, after episode 6, the writing went downhill fast, with a lot of plot points either being forgotten, or thrown in the back burner. A lot of the characters experienced writing inconsistencies.
In the end, Start Up could have been one of the better show sin 2020, but instead it will end up in the same category as TKEM, overhyped shows that didn't amount to much. It's viewership ratings in Korea actually drops in the last few episodes.
You should check out Run On or Mr. Queen, I've just started watching them, and they are really good.
I think it's cute that SDM has all thse "Aha" moments, because as a viewer, I kept having the "Huh"? moments.
One scene in particular when SDM and NDS are sitting down, and she tells him NDS is still the same Dosan from 15 years ago, because he understands her like no one else.
I'm like huh? how good is NDS at faking it. Because he hasn't done anything that supported SDM's statement.
Then NDS tells SDM that he has changed from before (Duh!), and SDM is like, nope I don't see it.
Yup, I agree with this. Plus I've only discovered SSK here, she is pretty great! Why do people dislike her acting? I feel she's a lot better than Suzy.
For this post, I will be using the style of responding to each of your points in quotations. I feel this is a more organized way of writing and counter arguing, and will add needed clarity to our hopefully fruitful discussion.
I apologize ahead of time, this will be a long post. I hope you show me the respect I showed you and actually read all of it, and not just skim through it. I’ve had a lot of fruitless discussion with NDS fan’s who don’t show me the respect of reading my whole reply. Without further ado, let us begin...
“I'm sorry, but I can't understand this overrating of HJP. Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings”
I wouldn’t worry too much about hurting HJP fan’s feelings, most of us here are quite mature and can accept criticism of HJP. I can at least speak for myself, that even if you called HJP the most toxic Kdrama character in history, I would not be offended, I would simply respond with my own opinions on your assertions.
It also makes sense that you cannot see HJP’s many great qualities, and instead manifest flaws, that only a few see. This is because you prefer NDS over HJP, and since these two fictional characters are in contention for SDM’s heart, it would make sense that you will feel that NDS, your preferred end game, would look better in comparison. This is just human nature, nothing more, nothing less. So let’s move along.
“He was indeed a great character, but he was harsh, "looking down", arrogant and narcisstic. There were times when I wanted to punch his nasty smirk face even more than ML.”
This statement seems a bit paradoxical and hypocritical. You claim he was a great character, but then you feel he has all these major flaws, that you wanted to punch him. I think what you meant to say is that HJP is a complex and interesting character, and that the actor KSH played him so amazingly, that you felt like punching HJP, because of how the actor KSH made you feel.
The only part I would agree with is that HJP is a complex and interesting character. I don’t agree with the rest of your statement, and I’m going to go into detail here of why. Let us first discuss the three adjectives you use to describe HJP, and I will also look into the “Smirk” that angered you so much.
Harsh and Looking Down– I think a lot of how we deal with the Kdrama’s we watch is based on our own personal beliefs. As I cannot speak for you, since I don’t know you, I will speak about myself instead. I am in my early 30’s and an Asian female. Now, to be entirely honest, I don’t find the way HJP presents himself as harsh at all, if anything it’s very common to see this type of language being spoken from senior members of society towards more junior members. And this is much more apparent in Korean society, where your birth order is very important. That is why honorifics like Unnie, Oppa, Hyung, and Noona are important in Korean society, because of the respect the juniors MUST have for their seniors. In that same Korean society, the seniors are not actually expected to show the same respect, in fact in corporate Korea, the seniority can at times be quite extreme and border along the lines of western type of Hazing.
I am not Korean, so in my culture this is not as bad, but there is still an emphasis on seniority and respect for elders, even if that person is only 3-4 years older than me. It is a societal expectation.
The advice that HJP gives NDS may appear harsh to you and some people, but for me, he is being pragmatic, he is not sugar coating the truth. He is giving advice based on realistic simulations, real life experience, and his expertise in the field. I found the advice to be quite realistic in the sense that he never tells NDS to give up on his dreams, or to just go quit being a programmer, instead he challenges NDS on his flaws, he points out his short comings, and he even gives him advice on what path he needs to go.
Of course to a dreamer like NDS, this does not sound good, because as a dreamer, what makes you happy Is when someone says how great your dreams are, and how amazing your product is. But in reality HJP says it best “those people are not interested in you, that is why they are being nice to you, I am interested, and that is why I’m being honest” This line is later parroted by Chairman Yoo in the later episodes, she uses the same words, but in albeit softer tone, which should not matter, since the message is the same. This line form both Chairman Yoo and HJP is probably the single most important line that people can learn from the show. That you should be wary of people who keeps telling you how amazing you are, and instead listen to the ones who are honest with you, regardless of how painful the truth sounds.
But, I’m Asian, and I’ve been surrounded by the harsh Asian society for most of my life, and because of this, I have become more mentally resilient. I get a lot of this harshness from my parents as well. I’m sure you’ve at least heard of Tiger parenting? Harshness as you call it, is just a potentially good message, being clouded in a strong tone, and less than ideal words. So once again, due to my own personal experience, I find HJP not to be harsh at all, just pragmatic and a realist not willing to sugar coat things. In fact, this all ties in with HJP’s backstory. As an orphan, you are taught very early to grow up and mistrust the world. You learn very early that the world isn’t all candies and cake, and life is harsh. So the way I see it, HJP sees NDS, sees his lack of ambition, and his dreamer mentality, and he just wanted to temper all that with realism, since HJP himself has learned the hard way, nothing is that easy. And this view from HJP is very relatable to most people, because life is indeed harsh, and we can’t all be as lucky as SST and see good fortunes just fall into our lap like that.
SDM best explains this when she says the odds of NDS being discovered by Alex is one in ten million. Just an FYI, the odds of winning the lottery has been calculated at 1 in 13 million. SDM is clearly saying NDS is very lucky here. Which he is, and the audience agrees that SST has been lucky throughout the show’s runs.
Looking Down – You have to remember HJP is in a high position with an investment firm that has responsibility to its clientele. This isn’t a law firm where you can just do pro bono cases for charity. This is a company where when clients lose money because the company makes bad investment, people get angry, people get sued, and sometimes people get violent. So in light of this, HJP tends to err on the safer side when choosing which investment SH ventures will do, and it looks like he is very good at his job considering how high his position and how large his bonus is at the beginning of the show. So what you take as “looking down” is just him being realistic with NDS and SST. They lack many factors that a successful start-up needs; In fact, they cannot answer the question that most investment professionals will ask. “How do you monetize your product”? How can any start up create a blueprint of success if they cannot convince VC money, which they need, how their product will be profitable? If you think VC companies are all just warm teddy bears whose biggest concern is how to save the forest while losing money, then you don’t understand how VC companies work.
Also, what is lost to many NDS fans is that HJP actually changes his stance on SST at around Ep. 3 at the 1 hour, 5 minute mark. The thing about HJP is that he is an character that has showed consistent character growth since episode 1. And he is a character that is willing to admit if he has made a mistake, and even willing to give due when it is deserved or earned.
Arrogant – There is a thing line between arrogance and confidence, and for you, he crosses the line into arrogance for most of the show. But for me, he is right on that line, with leanings into confidence. A lot of the words he says, a lot of the advice he gives is because of his confidence in his abilities. To people who are insecure like NDS and SST, this simply comes off as pure arrogance, but for people who are willing to learn, willing to improve, and are secure in themselves like SDM, this simply comes as advice from a confident person.
It’s like on Facebook, you will see people in sales, post about their achievements, the milestones they have hit, how much money they have made even. If you are insecure about the money you have earned that year, or are insecure about yourself in general, there is a very real possibility you will call this person arrogance, boastful, and even malicious. But if your secure in yourself, then you can just appreciate that person for their achievements, or even heed and ask their advice on how they reached such milestones.
Narcissistic – First let me place the google definition of a narcissistic personality
Narcissistic personality disorder involves a pattern of self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, a lack of empathy and consideration for other people, and an excessive need for admiration.
Now we apply this definition to HJP. I will denote a Yes or No, based on my personal opinion of whether or not I noticed it. Feel free to argue if you feel otherwise.
1. Self Centered – Nope, the fact that HJP’s job is to help startups, and he becomes a mentor to SDM proves he is not. He even runs to help SST stop getting acqhired. He has a lot of selfless deeds that really go unnoticed.
2. Arrogant thinking and Behaviour – I’ve already explained this in the adjective of arrogance, I don’t find HJP an arrogance character at all.
3. Lack of Empathy and Consideration for other people – Also no, at the very least he is considerate of SDM, and we see this with how he interacts with her. He also empathizes with Halmoni, and in many ways is considerate of SST as a company. He even is considerate of NDS actions during his confession to SDM, where he tells SDM about how NDS actions were not because of HJP.
4. An excessive need for admiration – Also no, if this was the case, then all of HJP’s good deeds, he would be shouting it at the top of the world, looking for praise. He does not. He does the good deeds expecting not much in return.
“Indeed, he was helping the team, but he never showed it to others”
This is why a lot of people felt he was very self-less. He helped people not to gain praise or admiration, he did it because he was either being self-less, or he was being professional in doing his job.
NDS varies greatly here. When NDS does something, he has to go out and tell people of what he had did, to either gain praise or sympathy. If it’s not him doing it, it’s one of his friends, or his parents. For HJP, a lot of his good deeds go unnoticed, he doesn’t feel the need to go out and shout it out to the world. This is in line with HJP’s personality of being selfless and not using accolades as the motivating force to do good, he just does it. Even if by doing good, it hurts him, he still does it, because HJP is a “Good Boy”. We rarely if ever see HJP angsting, or acting pitiful to gain sympathy from SDM, he suffers alone for the most part, except for a few scenes where he breaks down with Halmoni.
“He wasn't supportive in the way others needed support. I think writer did that intentionally.”
This is your subjective opinion. It’s funny how Yong San and SDM disagree with you. Using dialogue from the show, here is some truth bombs.
Yong San: We don’t need empty compliments right now, what we need now is your honest criticism.
SDM: I want facts, not a future filled with hopes and dreams that will never come. I want reality, I want your objective and honest opinion.
Sounds to me this completely contradicts your statement. HJP was providing them the needed support, but it took maturity and failure to open their eyes and realize his support is the support they needed all along. They were too stuck in their dreamer mentality that they became shocked when the bubble popped; because just like all dreams, you eventually wake up from it.
“Yes, good in heart, but harsh outside. Understandable past. But you can't deny pretty bad things he done and forgive him on only being an orphan in the past.”
If you are normalizing NDS behaviour, why can’t you offer the same for HJP? You think NDS violence is a small matter, but the so called “bad things” that HJP did is not forgivable? Also, what exactly are the bad things that HJP has done?
Being an orphan doesn’t excuse bad behaviour. The orphan backstory just helped us realize and reflect on the difficulty of HJP’s life, and give audience even bigger motivation to wish for HJP’s happy ending.
I can also say the same thing for NDS. His parents were strict so he lied to them for 15 years, wasted their money, and is aloof from them and doesn’t call them for 3 years? Yeah that’s even more unforgiveable that whatever you feel HJP has done, which is not much.
“I had more love towards Dosan. Even after first few episodes, when he revealed his "anger issues", which wasn't even a matter, but a good laugh from time to time, and understandable behaviour.”
You laughed at NDS angers issues, and felt this is normal? All I can say is WOW…
“He wasn't a bad character at all, and fans outshining HJP and putting every other character in garbage is awful.”
NDS was a poorly written, mentally weak ML that was outshined by the goodness of HJP. That is an assertion that is supported by the majority. On most online polls, at least 70% of fans support HJP. This reflects societal values, and how people thought HJP had more to root for than NDS.
Also, not all the characters were bad. Yong San and Cheul San actually had their good moments. Even though SDM was weakly written in the later episodes, she had her moments also, and is generally likeable. Same for Saha and the side characters. Only NDS is the really unlikeable ML.
“HJP deserved A LOT of what he got. And I haven't seen him being "punchbag", atleast for first 10 episodes. Apart from comedic and funny moments (if nitpicking him from time to time as a comedy element is "punchbag", which outrages his fans, I don't really know what to say). His story was great, heartbreaking, but heartwarming as well. He portrayed his character (atleast for me) just as I said. He wasn't very good in terms of relations to other.”
Not quite sure what you are saying here, but HJP basically is the sandbox of SDM and SST. He selflessly save them, even when they were pushing him away. And when they didn’t need him, he was cast aside. The way SST and SDM treats HJP, is the same way NDS treats his parents. It’s not a very healthy relationship. What kept most fans continue watching is the hopes that HJP’s constant selflessness would end up with some sort of happy ending. But until the end, he just became their eternal sandbox.
“Regarding relationships of kdrama in general - really liked the way they are portrayed in the show - not perfect, challenging, but realistic.”
Start Up is as fluffy as fluffy as it can be. There was no real challenges faced by the ML, except the invisible barriers constructed by their minds. The ML was created imperfect for the first 6 episodes, but quickly fixed to be your typical ML perfection by Ep.7. And a lot of the gripe of the show has been the unrealistic portrayal of relationships, startups, family dynamics, and etc…
“Not something behind the bars mattered, but something on the scene - and HJP on the scene were mostly looking as pretty harsh to others. As a viewer, you wanted to hug him or whatever, but it was understandable that he couldn't recieve anticipated by fans if he didn't broke "the wall" he had towards people around him and change. Yes, he had a past that explains it. But he couldn't make it. It was intentionally, and it played out greatly.”
Not sure what you are saying here.
“Regarding letters, he wasn't even sincere in them, putting first thing to come in mind. He never developed feelings for Dalmi till somewhere in the middle of the show.”
He clearly had feelings for SDM for a much longer time. The fact that his last line to SDM is “Your letters were a source of comfort for me” You know who else fell in love because the letters were a comfort to her? That’s right SDM. What may have started out as initially a chore, eventually became something he looked forward to, and it eventually blossomed into love. Just because it’s not shown on screen, doesn’t’ meant the audience does not feel it.
“And she never seen him in this light”.
He was never really given the chance, HJP screen time and presence with SDM was severely cut.
“On par, Dosan, were found more vulnerable by me and I couldn't do anything but root for him. He had problems, he were too emotional sometimes, but it was all intended, and it DID play out well in the show. I really don't know what anyone else expected, but writer did a great job for me.”
Key word here being “For you”. “For me”, this wasn’t the case. I found it difficult to relate to any of NDS actions.
“This writer does it quite differently than others, so if you watch too many kdramas at once, perhaps you may end up getting wrong impression. If Dalmi would develop romantic relations with Han Ji Pyeong, I believe it'd be super anticlimatic and end up in a boring piece of series like Secretary Kim, TKEM or Her Private Life. Or maybe something like Love O2O, where characters constantly compliment each other and everything is a boring setting”
Interesting you think this, since the whole time, everyone was just praising NDS and complimenting him. I guess you think Start Up is boring them based on your definition.
“And oh, how you can deny dynamics of the show. Things were dragging few times, but dynamics were always there. In every scene. Little expressions, dialogues, jokes. There were plenty of stuff told about Start Up and business for a kdrama, and especially for a rom-com. I found myself some handy things as well. The business ideas never felt rushed and cringy, and felt like possible things that could work. I really liked that. It was never boring, there were almost none dull moments.”
I did not rate poorly due to being bored by it. I rated poorly for the reasons I stated in my review. Did you read my review? I explained it quite well.
I haven't watched a lot of Kdrama, but these dramas alone I would rank higher than Start Up, in no particular order.
1. Greatest Love
2. Jealousy Incarnate
3. When the Camellia Blooms
4. Crash Landing On You
5. Pasta
6. It's Okay That's Love
7. Welcome to Waikiki 1 and 2
8. Run on (ongoing, but already feels a lot better, and will most likely get a higher rating from me)
9. Mr. Queen (ongoing, but already feels a lot better, and will most likely get a higher rating from me)
10. My Love from the Star
11. Master's Sun
12. My Golden Life
13. 18 Again
14. My Greasy Melo
15. Goblin
16. Let's Eat 1 and 2
17. What's Wrong With Secretary Kim
18. Oh My Venus
Basically, this is all the Kdramas I've seen or partly seen, and I find them all much better than Start Up. The only Kdrama i've seen that I would say is worst than Start Up is TKEM, and I rated that one lower than Start Up as well.
Ok, I'm going to reply to this with a long post that details and replies to all the points you have brought up. I hope you will take the time to read it. But I don't have the time to write it now. I'll just reply to your last sentence since it's the quickest.
I haven't watched a lot of Kdrama, but these dramas alone I would rank higher than Start Up, in no particular order.
1. Greatest Love
2. Jealousy Incarnate
3. When the Camellia Blooms
4. Crash Landing On You
5. Pasta
6. It's Okay That's Love
7. Welcome to Waikiki 1 and 2
8. Run on (ongoing, but already feels a lot better, and will most likely get a higher rating from me)
9. Mr. Queen (ongoing, but already feels a lot better, and will most likely get a higher rating from me)
10. My Love from the Star
11. Master's Sun
12. My Golden Life
13. 18 Again
14. My Greasy Melo
15. Goblin
16. Let's Eat 1 and 2
17. What's Wrong With Secretary Kim
18. Oh My Venus
Basically, this is all the Kdramas I've seen, and I find them all much better than Start Up. The only Kdrama i've seen that I would say is worst than Start Up is TKEM, and I rated that one lower than Start Up as well.
NJH's drama actually did not go up by much, some of it actually went down...
I don't know anymore with MDL, a bunch of dramas went way up and some went way down.
But Start Up is the same rating of shows I consider superior. And that's the thing about ratings, internally, we compare it to shows we've seen in the past.
The thing is Start Up for me wasn't even an average Rom Com. Welcome to waikiki 2 is rated the same rating, and after having watched that, as fluffy as it was, it had a coherent plot and consistent characters. Not even adding the fact that Waikiki 2 was really funny, and the chemistry between KSH and MGY was much hotter than NDS and SDM.
Jealousy Incarnate is a FAR superior product, with a better done love triangle as well. And it's only rated 8.2? LOL!
IMO, for the purposed of using the rating system of 10's
I think your average romcom should be rated an 8. Amazing romcoms like Mr. Queen should get an 8.5. Deeper romcoms like Run on deserves an 8.6-8.7.
And poor quality writing like Start Up should be around 7.5-7.8. It's only 8.1 because of the hype I guess. I mean even TKEM which is just as bad is 8.
And I think this is the reality of MDL, the more popular a show's stars is the higher the rating will be. Unless your The Heirs, lol!
I mean just look at LMH right?
Knowing the end game so early on, it made no sense why the show couldn't focus more on the business or family aspect more. To make matters worse, they really messed up everyone's character by making them do dumb things and out of character decisions.
** Many viewers complain about how superficial and unrealistic the startup scenes are depicted there - Personally, I don’t fully agree. Though I agree the writers could have toned down the path to success slightly in later episodes, I liked how all key elements are incorporated. Some of the tough aspects are shown in Mr. Seo’s story or the early days of San Sam Tech. If you want to watch stories of real-life startups I am sure there are tons of drama/ documentaries for you to watch. Don’t waste your time on a 16 episode Korean drama full of pretty actors/ actresses, hope and dreams. I think this should have been clear when the ML walks into FL’s life like Cinderella in episode 2.
Nobody is denying the the first 6 episodes paved the way for the possibility of Start Up being one of the better shows of 2020. In fact many people raved about episode 1 for how much emotion it invoked. So all those things showing the hardships or startups and the technical aspects, occurred during the first 6 episodes. And people watch technical dramas for some amount of realism. It's like, imagine watching Dr. Romantic, and seeing them cure bacterial infection with some ibruprophen. People who know this won't work, will lambast the technical aspect of the show. When a show uses actual Tech terms, actual companies, and actual people in it's plot, it's obviously trying to invoke some sort of realism, so you can't discount peoples need for realism in Kdrama. People are not even asking for hyper realism, just semi-accuracy, which the show failed to live up to.
** Female lead becomes someone who is solely dependent on her choice of a man - I don’t know why many think this way, at the end, the FL was doing a great job working for her sister In Jae. She is hard-working, smart, ambitious, and dares to dream - she would have been a successful start-up CEO wherever she goes and would not have needed a man...
Hmmm, SDM starts off as a quick witted retail employee without any experience. Through her moxie, she is able to move past certain hindrances. But let's not pretend that she would have gotten where she is right now if not for her connections to NDS, HJP and WIJ. NDS had a very biased reason for hiring SDM as the CEO of SST. WIJ, also hired SDM based on nepotism really, something prevalent in Korea and parts of Asia.
Claiming that SDM would have been a successful start up CEO whereever she goes, is a big assumption. I made this thought in the comment section, and I will repeat it here. SDM has not shown in the show how she is a competent CEO, even up until the last few episodes, she was still making a lot of mistakes, and there were far too many things she didn't know. The difference of WIJ and SDM in terms of skill became so much clearer whenever they shared the same screen.
And, there are at least 5 times when NDS comes to "Save" SDM from tough situations. But that is the main grip of the critics, why does an independent woman like SDM, need NDS to save her everytime things get tough? A lot of the situations she was in, she did not need saving, and in fact, her getting out of the sticky situation would have shown the audience she had the skill necessary to be a competent CEO. But instead of seeing character growth from SDM, we instead see, someone who needs a man to save her whenever the going gets tough.
Imagine if Sheryl Sandberg, the CEO of Facebook, needed her CTO to answer the tough questions for her when she is being interviewed. Or always needing her husband to defend her, when a rival CEO is saying some mean things to her? Sheryl Sandberg would LOSE so much integrity ad a CEO, and this is the truth more so in the male dominated tech industry. Notice in the meeting of Alex with NDS and SDM, he shakes NDS hands first. Normally in most business meeting, you shake the hands of the CEO first, as a sign of respect.
** ML becomes useless without the FL. - Well first, he is not really useless but just realizes how much she means to him. That the fame and the money he dreamt of isn't that interesting if he is all by himself. In the end, the Dal Mi really helped SST to get to where they were in the first place.
Though I agree it's slightly exaggerated but isn’t this what we all want to see from the ML in a Korean romance drama?
I don't know if the ML was useless, but people had a problem with the ML making the FL his dream, trophy, and goal. It comes off as quite exhausting and obsessive. The ML and FL essentially had a co-dependent relationship, where the FL enabled the bad behavior of the ML. None of the questionable acts of the ML is questioned by the FL, instead it's romanticized. Kdrama or not, people do not appreciate these kinds of relationships.
NDS makes us think that SDM had a big part to SST success, but from the viewers perspective, she does not. After the time skip, you can argue she became more important, but prior to it, most people thought she really did not add too much value. And this became more blatant when compared to WIJ, and seeing her being "saved' constantly by someone. Going back to my Sheryl Sandberg example.
** It's a useless triangle, and the drama is abusing 2nd ML. - We shall recall that the Han Jin Pyong did not visit her after he found her again. He also did not admit his feeling to her and kept on being warm and cold with her. On the other hand, Nam Do San has been drawn to FL the moment he saw her and there are countless moments at which Do San did things for FL without hidden agenda, such as appearing at the event for her. For me, it was very clear, that Han Jin Pyong, although being a very loveable character and supportive mentor to the FL, did not have any chance. I found the maker did a great job by having Han Jin Pyong realizing exactly that and open the path for Nam Do San and Dal Mi to become happy. What do you want from a love who does not love you back?
HJP's last line to SDM feels so forced to be honest. Keep in mind HJP is already being selfless at this point and pushing NDS to SDM, so who knows what the letters really meant, or what did before, no time or backstory is ever given to it.
There are things NDS does for SDM without hidden agenda, BUT there are also things he does WITH hidden agenda. A clear problem of the love triangle was how useless it was to have it in the first place, and how long it lasted for.
For most shows I know with a shipping far, Start Up is probably the show with the biggest imbalance of people rooting for NDS versus HJP. When Suzy and NJH themselves admit via interview that they feel uncomfortable with NDS actions, then that is saying a lot. The writer wrote NDS too weak of a ML, and HJP too strong of a SML, that's the reality of things.
Also, after episode 6, the writing went downhill fast, with a lot of plot points either being forgotten, or thrown in the back burner. A lot of the characters experienced writing inconsistencies.
In the end, Start Up could have been one of the better show sin 2020, but instead it will end up in the same category as TKEM, overhyped shows that didn't amount to much. It's viewership ratings in Korea actually drops in the last few episodes.
You should check out Run On or Mr. Queen, I've just started watching them, and they are really good.
https://mydramalist.com/683929-mr-hong
Everytime they say your highness, All I hear is mama, Lol!
One scene in particular when SDM and NDS are sitting down, and she tells him NDS is still the same Dosan from 15 years ago, because he understands her like no one else.
I'm like huh? how good is NDS at faking it. Because he hasn't done anything that supported SDM's statement.
Then NDS tells SDM that he has changed from before (Duh!), and SDM is like, nope I don't see it.
Once again I go HUH?!?
"they finish each other's sandwiches" :))
I think it's so ironic she is in fact Anna in the corporate presentation...
have a good day :)))
"and if everyone was dragging HJP and praising NDS I'd have done the same for HJP."
Ok, if you say so :)))