Fazarck

and you're like an ignorant person whose internalized homophobia externalized.

You know what, you're right, I should've notice. it's my fault trying to engage in a conversation about the show with someone who watch the show with their eyes and ears closed (or cherry picking what they wanted to see and hear).

Girl, I always have a problem with my short term memory, and yes, people like us exists, and it's not that uncommon either, especially amongst people with mild adhd. So, please keep your ignorance to yourself.

Again, I told you, the whole episode when they got caught was literally LF trying to cover up for YC (I will say the show mess up by giving some of YC's monologue to LF because it was YC who calls out the principal and the society in general as to who are they to decide two man loving each other wrong)

again, you obviously can't see the substance if you're watching with both eyes closed.

Girl, I said what I remember on top of my head. I am not going to watch the entire show again just to educate you, I am not that free, that's why I said "ON TOP OF MY HEAD".

Literally at the beginning episode LF gave YC sunflowers, I don't remember the specific, but I think it's also relevant during the kidnapping era (show specific because YC didn't like sunflower in the book), and the during YC visitation.

And it's not, well-written character isn't differentiate by the little details, but whether or not they develop. technically it's combination of both, but the emphasis is on the character development. This is not my opinion, this is scholars opinion.

as for your last question, I genuinely believe you don't actually watch the show (because it's literally the whole first act from episode 1-3 or 4 I think) or even read my comment other than what you choose to read. I literally said they, "They experience homophobia through the parents and the school, they experienced coming of age as a teenager in a conservative relationship who never understand sex and didn't understand that sex with a person who was not ready, even if that person loves you, is an assault."

And just in case you still don't get it, they did have conversation there supporting each other emotionally. During their first sex/SA fighting, they learned to understand each other, and again, LF shown that he was willing to learn and changed for YC, and mentioned specifically, he's not good at talking & apologizing,

On top of my head was the last episode whole convo about mental illness, (and regardless of my disagreement with them resulting to mental illness) they did portray the insecurities of someone being diagnosed with mental illness well. LF pretty much doesn't want YC to know because he was afraid that YC would think his action, and his love with it, was because of his mental illness (I don't remember if he got that idea from his sister or not), and he didn't feel like he is sick (again, a lot of people I know who had mental illness didn't feel like/belief they are sick), and he just doesn't want to be seen as weak. That is what I can remember on top of my head. You asked about quirks, YC love sunflower, and also from the last episode, I think LF mentioned something about YC always crying in his sleeps whenever they are fighting, their values, literally throughout the series, you have YC monologuing his thought.

Again, obviously they didn't talk about it like they sit down and addressed issues in the world, like this is some deephup thai series where they were listing performative woke check they should fill (except for some of their recent productions, like IFYLITA I will add), because what this series is not is performative, Chinese danmei rarely performative.

What they did was they experienced it. They experience homophobia through the parents and the school, they experienced coming of age as a teenager in a conservative relationship who never understand sex and didn't understand that sex with a person who was not ready, even if that person loves you, is an assault, they experienced the "meaningful conversation".

Don't get me wrong, I am very critical of this series, and this series had flaws and problems (Like what you said, invidual development, where LF had stellar indivual development from beginning to the end, YC doesn't have much), but what you said wasn't one of them.

you're clearly not welcomed by others either, sorry to break it up to you.

Um no, you can't have an opinion if you're going to judge the entirety of the story based on what you're hearing, the same reason why religious fanatics shouldn't decide that gays are abomination because of what they heard from their bible.

why would someone miss out on shows because you think someone overhype a show? like, overhyping won't make people did not watch other shows who already won't watch the show.

so you drop the story, and decided it romanticizing SA because you heard they ended up together, even though you didn't know how or at what state of "together" they are in?

I got pretty pissed at people who didn't watch/read something and decided to have an opinion that is misleading and ignorant too, invaded people's space that actually read/watch, and think they knew it better.

I actually believe Zhuo Lan deserves someone BETTER than YiChen, someone who actually love her and didn't think about another man.

As for why YC forgive Lf, it is very complicated. I will say the novel did better with YC's explicit and implicit reasoning, but the show also tone down a lot of LF horrible did in the novel. I think what I wish they portrayed more was YC inner monologue after years of separation from LF and why he decided to go to LF office.

If you think the show has neither romantic nor individual development, even though it is objectively wrong especially in regards to invididual development cause romantic is a lot more subjective, it is your perogative to be subjectively wrong.

I do have to question when you're asking about their quirks/values/hobbies/talk about things that matters that aren't about their relationship, do you watch with your eyes closed and ears clogged? Sorry, if that sounds harsh, but they talked about all of those during their time together, obviously not with a scene where they just sat down and talk politics cause that's boring, but that scenes do exist.

e.g. during their separation in principle office, LF actually argued to them who gave them, the school, the right to decide their love is wrong, or that YC favorite flowers is sunflower, etc. etc.

I might be misremembering this because it is from extra, but I do believe LF was diagnose with a mental illness, I am not sure if it's specifically bipolar, but I do think the whole rehab things was the series only.

Personally, I don't think someone who got drugged to do something bad that it suddenly become their fault, I don't blame LF in the series for that the same way I don't blame YC when LF drugged him to assault his son's bf in the novel. It's all the perpetrator fault and in no way should be given to the victim, regardless of the actions preceded it.

I think I need to specify, the prostitution thing was specifically talking about the office time when YC caught him with a prostitute while actively pursuing YC, I and I know most people don't really make it a problem that LF was promiscuous during the 20 years of separation.

And yes, YC in the drama never almost forget LF, unlike in the novel which I think a lot more humane for someone to fall in love with someone more present, regardless of whether that love is bigger or smaller than your past love. While there were no direct statements, LF did implied he had slept around during his stay in US in the books when he fought with YC in the office when YC resigns. Again, this is the one when YC couldn't refute back that, no he didn't sleep with anyone because he did with QL because of his brother. I guess to say why, there is no really a definitive reason. If I have to decipher the author intention I suppose it is to make it hurts and very melancholic (it is a dark romance after all, it supposed to hurt, just like romcom supposed to be funny/lighthearted), especially, imo, when LF asked him to go back the way they were, YC answer no, they can't go back. (I believe the translator said that YC was saying something like, "the circle is not perfect" to imply that things will never be the same, hence the title a round trip to love, but the circle is not perfect).

I think the best way to talk about the relationship between the brothers is by one scene they added in the series. In the series, YC called his brother for advise about LF, that didn't happen in the book because, again, YC would not rely on his brother. Their relationship in the book was forever broken because of QL incident, while in the series, it never happened so it never really got to a point that bad. YC, who no longer trust his brother, then only had LF. Mind you, I think there is the thing that people miss from YC during their kidnapping era is that the only time YC truly tried to leave LF's confine was when he believed LF was in love with Ke Luo. That was when he firmly told LF to let him go, and unlike in the series, when Zhuo Lan as him if he wanted to leave, YC did not hesitate to nod like in the show because again, in his mind, LF already had someone else in his heart. After the coma, LF came clean about his relationship with KL so he became someone available for YC again.

I actually agree with you. LF had been portayed as a childish man with flawed and volatile personality more than once through out the show, but it was his actions during kidnapping that is undefendable because it is meant to be so. He didn't make his decision as a childish man having a lapse in judgement, he kidnapped and tortured YC because he intended to do so. He made mistakes, intentionally or unintentionally, but I will say, him pushing YC's brother or accidentally killing YC's mother (because yes, unlike in the show, she died after LF told him about lil bro's condition), whether you believe it's an honest mistake or not, that doesn't absolve him from his responsibility to make it right to the person he claimed to love, because he is directly involved in harming them after all.

I get it lol . Iknow this is very off topic, but it's not everyday you can share you mind about something to someone who in the same wavelenght as you lol

I guess the problem with LF hiring prostitute is the "love standard" that people just somehow decided exist. You don't engage in a sexual relationship while pursuing someone's love, at least when what you're pursuing is a monogamy relationship. I guess in reality, it really depends on the people involved, but in the people ideal world, two people in love must stay loyal to each other under any circumstances, which is why in the show, neither LF nor YC actually had slept with someone else, which is again, imo very inhumane.

Now, before we got to QL and YC, we need to straightened up something here. Both QL and YC were using each other, QL using YC to get closer to lil bro and as a revenge/reverse psychology to make lil bro jealous, and YC is using QL as LF replacement. Now, the difference between two of them is that, QL did not forget lil bro while YC ALMOST forget LF. YC had been carrying LF's ring the whole time from their separation to meeting and having relationship with QL, but when he heard LF getting married, he was ready to forget LF and the book showed this by YC putting the ring in the box. Right after he did that, he went to see QL and overheard everything and about how it was his brother plan. This is the first time YC mentioned about his dignity, how much of a fool he was, etc. This is the very first hit to YC's self-esteem, that he wasn't wanted by QL. This actually is in parallel with the line when YC took back the ring from the box, much later after meeting LF again, and went back to LF to tell him that he wanted to move in with him and start their relationship again, That he was banking all of his dignity he had left by choosing LF again, that "Left" there was referring to QL-lil bro debacle, right before he met LF engaging with a prostitute. This is why that scene was more intense in the book because this had happened twice in YC life, once was with QL, and the second was with LF himself. That's why as he grew old, even when people compliment him good looking, he still thought of himself as ugly and convinced that LF would leave him (you know, on top of LF himself calling him ugly and all of that jazz during the kidnapping)

In regards to lil brother, it is important to note that his brother whom he trusted the most betrayed him. After this, you would never see YC relied on his brother unless he has nowhere else to go, and even then, he never told his brother about his problem. YC was still very sweet to lil bro, but never relying on him anymore. During the fight between Lf and lil bro, this is also the reason why lil bro was very adamant in blaming LF because he was the reason why YC cannot stand to LF and fought back when LF accused him of not staying faithful to LF. Lil bro made YC slept with someone else, and he felt bad, so he pit the blame to LF to make himself felt better. (mind you in the book, lil bro actually told YC about the whole message ordeal unlike in the show and in this scene they figured out what went wrong).

Also, now that I remembering this scene again, I hate that they didn't include the line for LF that said, "Even if it's a crime, surely the punishment isn't death!" when he plead for lil bro for his crime sleeping with prostitute.

This is definitely a major reason as to why at the end, when he had to choose between LF and lil bro, he chose LF. because with Lf, he can rely on him or wanting to rely on LF. This is why I love Lanlin's book. the answer to something is never as simple as, "he loves him a lot", but you can truly look deeper at it. The fact that it was written in first person pov also made people who notice aware that YC is an unreliable narrator. That he too was wrong and make wrong decision, that he too didn't understand himself from time to time, that he is a human.

And trust me, there are a lot of people who understand the story's complexity too, but there are a lot more people who doesn't understand it, or love it but doesn't truly understand the core of the story. Dark romance supposed to leave you in a dillema and conflicted. It is not supposed to give you a black and white answer, there is no right or wrong because world isn't like that most of the time.

It's definitely not wrong for you to use your knowledge in that regards, but I think we also need to accept that people don't have the same education or background knowledge as us. Common people don't think too deeply about stuffs. they either like or not, and they put things they don't or do understand to boxes. For those who like DH, they put them in non-toxic or good toxic, for those who hate it, they put it on bad toxic and romantization of toxicity. Neither group understand why they do it, they just do. Education and knowledge are actually for us to understand "why" we do certain things. The sun doesn't just suddenly rotate around the earth when we made calendars or cancer didn't just suddenly appeared when doctors "found" it. And fun fact, common folk back then called both Philosophers and doctors witches because they put "people who can do things they don't understand" into "witches" box.

Yc mentality in the novel and the show during that scene wasn't that much different, except for the fact that YC was firmly saying no in the book more than in the show. And that scene is supposed to be complicated because people always having a hard line on SA, but Lf and YC at that time were childdren, and yes, LF age is an adult, but what is an age without the brain of an adult? LF didn't know what he did was an assault, and YC didn't know nor speak about the things he felt. It was all new to both of them, but that doesn't mean YC did not get hurt. The book was very vivid about what YC felt at that moment, and he was pained, he was happy, he was relieved, but still sad and melancholic, and more importantly, it was humane. Even adult can barely understand their own feelings, let alone a teenager. It was bittersweet, and the only way YC could articulate his feelings was through cryin, hence why I cannot forgive the show for making YC smiling, that's like one of my most hated scene change in the show. Why they do it, I don't know, but hey people made mistakes too I suppose.

Novel is long and not for, what we called in literature, one sitting. You are meant to finish a novel leisurely and engaged longer which is why to keep people intersted, novels tend to have a lot of branching minor plots that complement the main plot. Other than that, novels story, as you said, tend to reflect the society as a whole, so it would be ignorant for the writers if they didn't add a pressing issue that is prevalent and related to or within the same setting as the plot. You DON'T have to add every single problem and made your character the most miserable human being on earth like the author of Bed Friend did, you just have to add enough that it made the world in your story alive and "real".

It's definitely intentional. It was her style of writings in a lot of her other works too, except for Pandora's box where she changed her style a bit.

LF being drugged is not as good as LF actually engaged in prostitution because for one important reason, it showed how much of a human LF actually is, someone who have strong desire and weakness. And mind you, he lived in US which are a lot more liberal with sex. It's humane just as much as YC trying to escape LF by falling in love in QL made him a lot more human.

I think you're missing a lot of points in QL and YC arc. It's not about YC and LF, it's about YC and his little brother. This arc literally what detroyed YC's trust to his little brother because unlike in the show, YC had a bad fight and literally run away from his little brother and only went to him when he had nowhere else to go, not even LF. People always confused why would YC choose LF over his little brother at the end, when YC's trust towards his brother never recovered because of QL. This is why the lil bro was so adamant in blaming LF during the fight after LF hired a prostitute. This arc literally ripples throughout the story, especially when talking why at the end, YC still refused to go with his brother.

And wouldn't you know even with that ending, people still say Lanlin and DH/ARTTL promoted/romanticize toxicity, like do this people read/watch with a blindfold? Most likely, because whenever I engage with a person with that opinion, it became clear that they stop reading and just skipping through.

I am glad we understand each other, but I never said anything about DH only victim /perpetrator relationship or even stockholm syndrome, in fact, I even comment on someone else's post against it. I understand how deep DH are, and despite the differences that they make, DH changes had some good things too, namely some of the detailed stuff about LF, like how LF's felt in US seeing a gay couple can freely engage in a kiss while he got separated from his lover for it. I will never forgive them making YiChen smiled during that scene in the park after the first SA scene tho, in the novel YC was crying even after LF apologize because that's just how much horrible SA felt, and yes, YC said he kept remembering that moment in his darkest hour, but the context of that memory is bittersweet, not happy.

it's fine, we all have things we're good at and learned and can learned from each other.

MDZS was definitely good written piece. You don't want to keep using the same technique over and over again because in a novel, it has a lot of branching plots and generally long so you want to diversify and keep the readers' attention through out the novel. Also, Xue Yang's arc was in the past so using empathy as if you're seeing a screening of historical record is a lot more appropriate as opposed to Lin Jing's is a character that is still alive, so it kept the suspense high by not going the "easy" way. In high intense moment, you can even rationalize it as the character was too preoccupied to think more efficiently in tracing Lin Jing.

That is dillema, which is actually something you are always aiming for in a piece of literature regardless of the genre, but obviously it is easier to obtain in and more intense in a more complicated story than says in romcom. I only managed to read my way through this book multiple times because I was always such a sucker for hurt and comfort tags on FFN lol

Anyway, I am having a nice discussion too :)