We are at episode 8 and I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but... this series is at the same time very good…
"If this series had the intention of revealing that yes, Toranaga is really a big master blaster manipulator and strategist, to me it failed. The only reason why he isn't dead yet is, besides the usual "plot armor", by this very script, is luck. He can be praised for sensing and using his opportunities, but too much is happening because he was lucky. He is getting too much from doing too little."
100% agreed except I don't think he is being depicted as a "master blaster manipulator and strategist", I think it's what people think he is or describe him as (irl and in the show). But I don't think the show paints him that way. We haven't seen much strategies from him so it's a mix of smart moves, loyalty from his people, and luck. As long as you don't watch this expecting him to be Tyrion Lannister smart, it's fine. The fact that he aknowledges that the two people's death was a stroke of luck to gain him time shows that he needed the time and so his plan is not well in place. Otherwise he could just march to Osaka immediately.
I feel like they wasted a lot on this episode, nobody in 2024 still believe the "I give up" narrative, so we've been waiting for Toranaga's admission of fight for two episodes now which is way too long imo. Of course he's going to fight, of course it's all a trick. Now his most loyal friend offed himself to make his fake surrender believable when he's the one who talked about "he's going to fight" in the beginning of the episode. Toranaga knows that Yabushige would betray him, that's why he named him to Mariko in the end, so it wasn't to scare away just any traitors but the one guy who he knew would blab away to Ishido if he knew antyhing about a plan to fight. I feel like losing Hiromatsu just to scare Yabushige away (who is not even that loyal to beginning with) was a great loss.
I don't think that Toranaga was being a mastermind manipulator here, he doesn't just have people do things, from my understanding he doesn't trust people enough to count on them like that (the fact that nobody knew he was sneaking away from Osaka for exemple), but he does somehow rely on their loyalty or disloyalty. The talk about loyalty in this episode, and even before show that despite not trusting anyone, Toranaga does count on people's loyalty or disloyalty to him to plan his every move. He reads people, learns about them and then just knows what they will do and plan accordingly. He knew the Anjin wouldn't just sit back and he knew the man he would go to in that case was Yabushige, whom he knew would betray him. So he tried to convince people that he was done to set the whole thing in motion but it wasn't enough, and Hiromatsu got the hint in the end and decided that his death should serve his lord enough to have people convinced (when again, he's the one who talked about "he'll fight" lol).
The fact that Toranaga knew Hiromatsu did what he did out of duty indicates that Hiromatsu knew about his plan (idk if it's because they talked or because of his last words to his son). But I don't think Toranaga asked it of him or even expected him to do it like some assume. He might have even forbidden the whole thing (if they really talked), but Hiromatsu decided to do it anyway. The look and tears in his eyes during their last conversation...it doesn't look like he wanted/awaited for this to happen. I felt like he was trying to tell him "don't do it, fight with me in Osaka" and Hiromatsu was just like "nah I'm good, my son will to that for me". What was he suppose to do to stop his death ? Admit he'll fight? He couldn't. And it did serve his plan in the end so...
I don't think his death was orchestrated by Toranaga, imo He's not the mastermind some people assume him to be, he is smart of course but he's not your "everyething will go my way just because" kind of character. Those kind of characters just they're not well written character, it's easy plot, it's boring. I think that the whole loyalty/disloyalty thing can be seen as a plot armour/luck because it can serve him a lot, as long as you accept that he's smart enough to read people. Or maybe I just don't understand Toranaga's character very well, but from what they showed us about him, he doesn't strike me as someone whose success came from him controling everything that happens around him.
The fact that he mentionned his son and Hiromatsu buying him time show that he didn't have everything in place. Hiromatsu's loyalty is what allows him to move forward with his plan (which I assume is to fight in Osaka when Ishido and the others think he's surrendering). Idk, I felt like he has a plan but it's still very fragile, mainly because he can't control everything. There are things he needs to happen and try to set them in motion but he clearly can't do it all by himself.
They're not giving the protagonist much to do in the last few episodes, do they? He starts to look like a prized…
It's funny because I noticed it too but though I thought it would, it actually doesn't bother me at all. The thing with focusing on a lot of side characters is that it must be well done, and a lof of productions don't do that very well. The characters are bland, not charismatic, or their story too boring and not deep. But we have many major key characters in this show, and it's hinted that they all have their importance to the story so I actually don't mind not seeing much of John. Toranaga will definetly use John (if he hasn't already, but off screen) so I'm sure we'll be seeing more of him in the last two episodes.
Blackthorne speaks English, Dutch, Latin, and Portuguese. He was in possession of rutters (written sailing directions)…
John being an english man on a dutch boat should not be in possession of documents that allows him to find passage to the Japans, as only portuguese people were allowed to have them, as in, if you have them and are not allowed to, it's a death sentence. Those papers being in his possession are enough to assume he is an enemy, even without reading his journals, and should therefore be put to death.
Priests could speak many languages back then, they travelled a lot for religious reasons. The big nations of europe back then had a lot of trade relationships so it's not surprising that they could speak english. They might not speak it fluently though, since it was assumed that translation the whole book would take a very long time (I only assume). The priests only translated the part of John's book that could incriminate him as his pesence could ruin their plans in Japan. When Mariko is looking at the book she scans the page really fast because she can't read english and then she finds the one page. One of the sentence she reads is about an island that John and his crew burned down (Tidore), that page is translated in portuguese (or latin I don't remember). In any case, that little page is the one thing that allows Mariko to understand that John and his crew sacked Portuguese bases, which makes him a pirate. As to believing that the translation is reliable, she is a christian who trusts the church more than the dude who just arrived. She accused him and he could have lied and maybe she would have had doubts about the translation, but he didn't.
Swap gender is also heavily criticized in the west anyway so it doesn't shock me. But there are others who complimented the show in China. I mean, it's like everything, there will always be good and bad reviews but to see swap gendering as a critic... well not shocked because men love to bash on us but still annoyed.
well there are only 3 white people, the cast is mainly composed of poc. but poc or white it doesn't matter, they are not Asian and some people are bothered, others don't care
I stand by me previous comment, this is a Kim Dong hyun hate account.
That pillar game was unfair on women because there was no way they could have win, the men are physical beasts! I mean, thanos ??? They need a season with just women because I'm tired of them just getting the crumbs that men allow them to have when some of them are strong af!
Not people on chinese social media bitchin about the gender swap of the main character in the netflix adaptation lol, people really love to be misogynistic for the fun of it
100% agreed except I don't think he is being depicted as a "master blaster manipulator and strategist", I think it's what people think he is or describe him as (irl and in the show). But I don't think the show paints him that way. We haven't seen much strategies from him so it's a mix of smart moves, loyalty from his people, and luck. As long as you don't watch this expecting him to be Tyrion Lannister smart, it's fine.
The fact that he aknowledges that the two people's death was a stroke of luck to gain him time shows that he needed the time and so his plan is not well in place. Otherwise he could just march to Osaka immediately.
Of course he's going to fight, of course it's all a trick. Now his most loyal friend offed himself to make his fake surrender believable when he's the one who talked about "he's going to fight" in the beginning of the episode. Toranaga knows that Yabushige would betray him, that's why he named him to Mariko in the end, so it wasn't to scare away just any traitors but the one guy who he knew would blab away to Ishido if he knew antyhing about a plan to fight. I feel like losing Hiromatsu just to scare Yabushige away (who is not even that loyal to beginning with) was a great loss.
I don't think that Toranaga was being a mastermind manipulator here, he doesn't just have people do things, from my understanding he doesn't trust people enough to count on them like that (the fact that nobody knew he was sneaking away from Osaka for exemple), but he does somehow rely on their loyalty or disloyalty. The talk about loyalty in this episode, and even before show that despite not trusting anyone, Toranaga does count on people's loyalty or disloyalty to him to plan his every move. He reads people, learns about them and then just knows what they will do and plan accordingly. He knew the Anjin wouldn't just sit back and he knew the man he would go to in that case was Yabushige, whom he knew would betray him. So he tried to convince people that he was done to set the whole thing in motion but it wasn't enough, and Hiromatsu got the hint in the end and decided that his death should serve his lord enough to have people convinced (when again, he's the one who talked about "he'll fight" lol).
The fact that Toranaga knew Hiromatsu did what he did out of duty indicates that Hiromatsu knew about his plan (idk if it's because they talked or because of his last words to his son). But I don't think Toranaga asked it of him or even expected him to do it like some assume. He might have even forbidden the whole thing (if they really talked), but Hiromatsu decided to do it anyway. The look and tears in his eyes during their last conversation...it doesn't look like he wanted/awaited for this to happen. I felt like he was trying to tell him "don't do it, fight with me in Osaka" and Hiromatsu was just like "nah I'm good, my son will to that for me". What was he suppose to do to stop his death ? Admit he'll fight? He couldn't. And it did serve his plan in the end so...
I don't think his death was orchestrated by Toranaga, imo He's not the mastermind some people assume him to be, he is smart of course but he's not your "everyething will go my way just because" kind of character. Those kind of characters just they're not well written character, it's easy plot, it's boring.
I think that the whole loyalty/disloyalty thing can be seen as a plot armour/luck because it can serve him a lot, as long as you accept that he's smart enough to read people.
Or maybe I just don't understand Toranaga's character very well, but from what they showed us about him, he doesn't strike me as someone whose success came from him controling everything that happens around him.
The fact that he mentionned his son and Hiromatsu buying him time show that he didn't have everything in place. Hiromatsu's loyalty is what allows him to move forward with his plan (which I assume is to fight in Osaka when Ishido and the others think he's surrendering). Idk, I felt like he has a plan but it's still very fragile, mainly because he can't control everything. There are things he needs to happen and try to set them in motion but he clearly can't do it all by himself.
Toranaga will definetly use John (if he hasn't already, but off screen) so I'm sure we'll be seeing more of him in the last two episodes.
Priests could speak many languages back then, they travelled a lot for religious reasons. The big nations of europe back then had a lot of trade relationships so it's not surprising that they could speak english. They might not speak it fluently though, since it was assumed that translation the whole book would take a very long time (I only assume).
The priests only translated the part of John's book that could incriminate him as his pesence could ruin their plans in Japan. When Mariko is looking at the book she scans the page really fast because she can't read english and then she finds the one page. One of the sentence she reads is about an island that John and his crew burned down (Tidore), that page is translated in portuguese (or latin I don't remember).
In any case, that little page is the one thing that allows Mariko to understand that John and his crew sacked Portuguese bases, which makes him a pirate. As to believing that the translation is reliable, she is a christian who trusts the church more than the dude who just arrived. She accused him and he could have lied and maybe she would have had doubts about the translation, but he didn't.
It wouldn't surprise me if it was really true, east Asia is really misogynistic.
That pillar game was unfair on women because there was no way they could have win, the men are physical beasts! I mean, thanos ???
They need a season with just women because I'm tired of them just getting the crumbs that men allow them to have when some of them are strong af!