Is there something in particular in the novel or the drama that makes you feel that heartbreak alone wouldn't cause retaliation? That wanting to stop loving the other person or falling out of love with the other person would instead be the trigger?AH :
I can't think of anything in the novel that indicates that. The Shaman King said that heartbroken people produce Heartbreak Bugs. He didn't say anything about a heartbroken host needing to also want to stop loving the other host, or actually stopping loving the other host, before retaliation would occur.
My apologies - real life called again so could only slowly catch up with responses now.
Based solely on the novel:
“孤阳不生，独阴不长，万物有利一面，则必有害一面，利越大，害就越大，情人蛊亦是如此。它能让有情人心意相通、命脉相连，可情人蛊的蛊虫就像相恋的恋人，脾气多变，非常难驾驭，蛊虫极易反噬，一旦发作，两人俱亡，所以情人蛊还有个名字，叫断肠蛊。”
“Yang cannot exist alone, and neither can yin. For everything that is beneficial, there must be a harmful side. The greater the benefit, the greater the harm. The Lovers Bug is exactly that. It enables lovers to be emotionally and intuitively attuned to each other, to have their fates and lives intertwined. However, the poisonous bugs of the Lovers Bug are like lovers in love with each other, temperamental, extremely difficult to control, will easily retaliate. Once that happens, both of them will die. Therefore the Lovers Bug has another name, called the Heartbreak Bug.”
:
不见巫王有何动作，想来是用自己体内的蛊虫在探看。巫王眉头紧皱，喃喃说：“的确是情人蛊！怎么可能呢？‘有情人养情人蛊，断肠人成断肠蛊’，情人蛊和其他蛊都不同，必须要一对情人心甘情愿，才能种蛊，他若不是你的情郎，你怎么可能给他种下情人蛊？”
The Shaman King did not make any evident movement so he was likely using the poisonous bug inside his own body to inspect hers. He frowned and murmured, “It is indeed the Lovers Bug! How is it possible? ‘Lovers raise the Lovers Bug. Broken-hearted people produce the Heartbreak Bug.’ The Lovers Bug is different from other bugs. It requires the pair of lovers to be wholeheartedly willing in order to be able to plant it. If he is not your lover, how could you have planted the Lovers Bug in him?”
:
巫王的脸皱成了一团，说道：“要么同心而生，要么离心而死，
The Shaman King's face wrinkled up. "They either live because their hearts are one, or
-- Vol 3 Ch4 (Chapter 37)
We know that the Lovers bugs enables the couple to be 心意相通 emotionally and intuitively attuned to each other. We have seen this from how Xiang Liu is able to sense what Xiao Yao feels. On the other hand, he is able to control the Lovers bugs in a way that he is able to shield her from sensing any of his emotions unless he allows it, or his guard drops. This is probably due to his far superior spiritual powers, though I have also wondered whether perhaps what Xiao Liu once thought might have some merit in it, when she figured that Xiang Liu might understand something of the poisonous bugs seeing he was a demon, and the bugs and beasts are from the same family. If that part were true, could it be that the poisonous bugs also have a inherent deference to the nine-headed demon being the King of the sea, similar to how A Bi felt compelled to bow to Jing as the nine-tailed fox.
Anyway, I digress.
We are told that the bugs retaliate and change into 断肠蛊 Heartbreak Bugs when the host(s) are brokenhearted. However, what form of heartbreak would cause the bugs to retaliate? It has to be related to the other host.
The novel goes on to elaborate that the pair would die because of 离心 hearts that are no longer one. What does it mean by 离心? It means that a heart that has drifted apart from the other, when two hearts are no longer together. For me, this means a heart that no longer loves the other person, or a heart that intends to stop loving that person.
As such, to me, the crux of the Lovers bugs lies in the condition of the hearts of the lovers. The Lovers Bug will never retaliate as long as the love the couple have for each other in their hearts remain unchanging and true, regardless of whether there is intimacy with someone else other than the one the bug was planted in.
If that is the case, what triggers the Heartbreak bug? While one would automatically associate heartbreak with a lover who is betrayed by the other, it can also refer to the heartbreak caused by their lover (even if that lover never stopped loving them), to the extent that the person would consider to try and take back their love. The Lovers bugs are like lovers in love and they will not tolerate any change of heart on the part of their hosts - whether it is falling out of love with their lover, or wanting to stop loving each other - as it is seen as a threat to their love. If that happens, the poisonous bugs transform into Heartbreak bugs, and kill both their hosts.
In the novel, we never had any indication of the Lovers bug retaliating at any time. It is true that Xiang Liu was far more powerful and could control the bugs. Nonetheless, we know that even after she severed their relationship at Gourd Lake, even with all the devastation and grief they both experienced, there was no indication that she was ever at any mortal risk from the bugs' retaliation, all the way up to the time he finally destroyed the bugs. As such, their love for each other remained true and unwavering from the moment the Lovers bugs were planted, until and beyond the day the bugs were destroyed.
Taking into consideration the drama:
In the drama, we are shown the bugs retaliating only once - and that is when he saw her being carried away intimately by Jing outside Dragon Bone prison, after Xiao Yao told him having him enter a girl's dreams is a fate more terrifying than death.
Seeing the woman he loved reject him, and turn around to being intimate with another man must have been utterly devastating for Xiang Liu. The irony in this situation is that at that point in time, any acts of intimacy she shared with Jing were solely out of pity, and not love at all, as is stated clearly by the script and shown in the BTS.
The script states that the bug tried to retaliate against Xiang Liu, yet we see that Xiao Yao was unharmed and unaffected. Does it then indicate that the retaliation only happens to the person is heartbroken, and not the one causing the heartbreak? The novel tells us that is not true - once the bugs retaliate, both hosts will die. The novel also tells us that a couple who has 离心 (hearts which are no longer one) will suffer the retaliation - in other words, one or more had had a change of heart. So in this case, was it because she rejected him and had chosen to stop loving him? If this were true, she should have suffered the retaliation first, since her heart had changed. Yet she remained unaffected, even managing to swim the whole night to shore with no risk to her life. As such, it indicates her love for him still remained unchanged.
Then was it because he was heartbroken by her rejection, even though her love for him remained, except she would not admit it? I don't believe this is the case because solely being heartbroken by her rejection does not imply their hearts are no longer one - a requirement for the Lovers Bugs to turn into Heartbreak Bugs. As such, I would conclude that based on the added detail from the drama, at this point in time, Xiang Liu did consider taking his love back because of the devastation that he felt - the very first time he experienced a broken heart ever since they planted the bugs. He only managed to suppress the bugs that were retaliating by sheer force of his spiritual power, thus keeping her safe. I would think that in that moment, he understood exactly what the Lirong old donkey meat seller meant when he said, "The love poisonous bug demands not only your life but your heart. You have nine lives, but only one heart. Once your heart is given, you can never take it back."
Taking his heart back, is to choose to stop loving her. Knowing now that he could not try to stop loving her without risking her life, he accepted this and the pain that he would have to bear, including all of hers as well. As such, for me, this was the first and only time the bugs ever retaliated and it was only due to him wanting to stop loving her after the heartbreak of seeing her in another man's arms after rejecting him.
Other times I can think of when we see the glow of the bugs were:
- During the planting of the Lovers bugs when the lights surrounded them before rushing into their chests (S1 Ep12)
- Her dying after the Plum Forest assassination (S1 Ep30), during which time he used a formation to forcibly stop the bugs from escaping their bodies. The visible glow of the bugs indicated the waning life force as the bugs escaped from their respective chests.
- During the 37 years of healing (S1 Ep31) - once more the glow is a sign of how strong or weak their individual life signs were
- Just before Xiao Yao is awakened (S1 Ep32) - Xiang Liu held her hand and we catch a glimpse of the glowing bugs again. At this point in time, neither of their lives were in danger. As such, the glow of the bugs should be just a joyful beating of hearts in unison with each other. This should also mirror the cut scene from the leaked script after the 4th question, when their hearts glowed in unison
- The last day at Qingshui Town when he deliberately hurt her heart (S2 Ep7) - here the bugs were glowing and slightly dispersing.
- During the killing of the Lovers bugs (S2 Ep21-22) - at first when he activated the bug in his chest, hers began to glow in response and in unison with his; and later when he lured the bugs from her body into his and forcibly killed them.
When we think about it, in their 120+ years sharing the Lovers bug, Xiang Liu was the only one who bore the suffering for both of them. She had always been shielded from his, while he had always experienced both her pain and his own in every situation.
The only time he allowed her to experience debilitating pain was during the time at Qingshui Town after taking her away from her wedding to Feng Long.
Contrast the time when she saw Jing at Cang Xuan's wedding, which was still bearable and she could still barely keep up appearances:
Xiao Yao felt as if her heart was being torn apart by a large hand, so painful like it was about to be shattered, but she kept on smiling. Suddenly her heart beat violently and Xiao Yao could no longer maintain her smile.
-- Vol 2 Ch9 (Chapter 26)
to when he deliberately hurt her on the last day at Qingshui Town:
As Xiao Yao turned to leave, Xiang Liu said, “Let me remind you that the poisonous bug is still there. If you dare reveal that I am Fangfeng Bei, don’t blame me if you die from the pain of my hurting your heart.”
Xiao Yao suddenly stopped and turned around to look at Xiang Liu.
“Don’t believe me?”
Xiao Yao’s heart felt severe pain like it was pierced by a sharp sword. It was so excruciating that her limbs spasmed in pain and she slumped to the ground.
Xiang Liu was like a creator god who held her life and death in his hands. He looked down at her indifferently and said, “If you don’t wish to die, don’t say things you shouldn’t!”
-- Vol 2 Ch15 (Chapter 32)
My theory was that in that moment at Qingshui Town, for once, he allowed her to experience the full force of everything he felt; or he deliberately hurt her heart to such extent that the pain floored her.
Similarly, in the drama, there was no glow of the bugs during Cang Xuan's wedding, as opposed to at Qingshui Town. For me, I don't get the impression that the bugs were retaliating in that moment. Rather, it was the crushing pain that he delivered to her heart, that might have possibly threatened the survival of the bugs in her, hence they started glowing and dispersing. When her bugs reacted, his reacted in kind as well. The only reason they stopped in the end was because he stopped the pain.
I do agree though that what the drama shows us may not necessarily be consistent, especially when we have seen them change the scenes when the bugs do glow from after the 4th question, to the last day of Qingshui Town. In any case, this is my theory if we were to take both the novel and drama into consideration. Even if we exclude the drama, my take on the criteria needed to change the bugs into Heartbreak bugs remains unchanged.
But the way they laid it out as if there were two walnuts (instead of two halves of one walnut) and as if the walnuts were somehow the same as the bugs and yet existed outside of the hosts such that one of the walnuts could... have a casual chat with Chubby out in the wilderness instead of being inside the hosts (after being absorbed into them) and... not being sentient / capable of having a chat. It seems unnecessarily confusing. Couldn't they have just had Chubby chat with the bug in XL while XL was sleeping?
I agree that it is a little misleading having Mao Qiu talking to the walnut as if there were two walnuts instead of one. My take is that it is for simplicity's sake due to the brevity of the video rather than going into great detail about how the walnuts are actually two poisonous bugs residing within 1 walnut. It is probably also easier to represent the Lovers bugs as a walnut from whence it came, rather than an intangible glowing light. Just my two cents.
It's getting late, so will try and finish responding tomorrow.
My own theory tends to align more closely with liddi's theory here. I think hatred, lack of love, and romantic love for another person will all cause the bugs to retaliate. Specifically regarding romantic love for another person, since the bugs are primarily raised by very determined girls for their lovers, I highly doubt most girls would condone their lover falling in love romantically with another person, even if their lover still loved them as much as before.solarlunareclipse:
Actually my theory is not quite that. Rather, my point is that the Lovers bugs is very much dependent on the condition of the heart of the couple. I don't know whether our definition of heartbreak is similar. For me, the most important condition to ensure the Lovers bugs do not retaliate is that the couple's love for each other remain true and unchanging. If one or both of the pair stop loving each other, or replace their love by falling in love with someone else, or want to try and stop loving each other, then the Lovers bugs will retaliate and change into Heartbreak bugs. My reasoning for this is the use of the word 离心 to explain why the couple would die. 离心 means a heart that has drifted apart, is no longer one. The Lovers bugs are like lovers in love, and guard the love between their hosts fiercely. If there is any threat to that love -including an attempt by the host to stop loving the other host - it would retaliate because it shows a condition of the heart that is 离心. By the same token, if the lover has any form of intimacy with anyone else but their love for each other remains unwavering, the bugs are in no danger of retaliation, because the heart is still true to each other.
I elaborated on this at length in my previous post here.
I agree with this ^^^^ LYF really made me a fan of Shao Hao. He seems much more ambitious and capable than Jing, and better developed than CX. Although he was morally grey, his scheming and actions didn't leave the same bad aftertaste in my mouth as King Xuan Yuan's or Jing's because I didn't get the impression he did what he did for selfish reasons, and tried to avoid hurting the people he cared about.
Yes. In Once Promised, he always leave me with a feeling of regret because I love his character despite his ruthlessness and moral ambiguity, and rooted for him very much, far more than I did Chi Chen. Unlike the Yellow Emperor who infuriated me so much for all the harm he did to his wives and children, and the way he manipulated everyone. A Heng and Chi Chen's tragic end was very much as a result of his manipulations, without which A Heng would have already gone to Chi Chen. Nonetheless, I must say that I don't know how she would have been able to handle seeing her lover killing her own people - especially after having seen their suffering due to the war.
In that sense, I can understand why everyone objected to Xiao Yao loving Xiang Liu, though to be fair, Xiao Yao's worldview had always been very small - limited to those in her immediate circle whom she loved. She had little to no interest in the good of the world at large, and actually resented it and her mother's decision to prioritise it over her for a very long time.
I agree. Official match be damned, I'm team Shao Hao! Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shao Hao seems thoughtful and selfless, traits I also admire about XL. Perhaps the degree of his thoughtfulness and selflessness are not to the same degree as XL, but still... In terms of temperament, I find XL to be a closer match to Shao Hao than Chi Chen.
Shao Hao is not selfless - if anything, he is calculative, patient, manipulative and cunning - with good reason. Without those traits, he would have died long ago, seeing how his life was always at risk ever since he was a child, being betrayed over and over by those he thought he could trust. Qing Yang himself admitted to A Heng that even he was afraid of Gaoxin Shao Hao, because that identity encompassed his ambitions and love for his country, which may one day override their friendship. And despite their fast friendship, Shao and Qing Yang both knew that one day, if they were kings of their own kingdoms, they would go to war against each other and will kill one another. It was stated as a matter of fact, without any sadness, because they knew where their path would take them ultimately. You can also see how Shao Hao manipulated the situation with Nuo Nai - framing his betrothed and forcing the engagement to be dissolved so that Nuo Nai's Xi He tribe would not be allied with the Chang Xi tribe that opposed him; then later used Nuo Nai's love for Yun Sang to manipulate him to infiltrate the Shen Nong army. The real reason for Xiao Yao's grand 3rd birthday celebrations was to have the previous Eminent Emperor declare clearly to all his sons and everyone present that he abdicated to Shao Hao out of his own will so that his reign would not be challenged anymore.
That being said, whatever decisions he made, ultimately he did it with the wellbeing of his people in mind, even if he had to sacrifice his own chance at happiness because of it. As much as he loved A Heng in the end, he never forced her against her will - if anything, he gave her agency to determine how their relationship went. If A Heng had learnt to love him, would she have found happiness? I believe so. Shao Hao would have loved and cherished her just as he wholeheartedly loved Xiao Yao. But in the end, she would still be torn between her country and Gao Xin the day both kingdoms went to war, which was why Qing Yang was adamant that she did not fall in love with her husband-to-be. And how much could she have borne to stand by and watch the cruelty with which Shao Hao dealt with his father and brothers?
In that regard, while there are some similarities, I don't believe Xiang Liu and Shao Hao are that similar after all. Xiang Liu would give his all to repay a debt of gratitude and fulfil the wishes of those he loved and cared about. Shao Hao would trample on that debt of gratitude and sacrifice that love when weighed against his ambitions and his people.
LYF Short Promo Videos
Before the start of the second season, the production team released these short music/dance videos featuring Xiao Yao with each of the three male leads. The videos may subtly hint at the future of each of the characters.
Cang Xuan's video, titled "The Atmosphere When Xiao Yao and Cang Xuan Pass Each Other" (小夭玱玹擦肩而过氛氣感), was released on June 25, 2024. In the video, Xiao Yao asks if she looks good while someone is taking her picture. The person behind the cell phone camera answers that she looks fine. Meanwhile, Cang Xuan, distracted and talking on his cell phone, bumps into Xiao Yao but doesn't notice her. Given that Cang Xuan and A Nian visit Qing Shui Town at the end of the drama, this short promo video suggests that Cang Xuan will encounter Xiao Yao without recognizing her.
Tushan Jing's video, titled "Xiao Yao Summons Tushan Jing in One Second" (小夭一秒召唤涂山璟), was released on June 26, 2024. In the video, Xiao Yao summons an unsmiling Jing in just one second, similar to summoning a servant. Xiao Yao is dressed more formally than Jing, reflecting their master-servant dynamic. By the end of the drama, Tushan Jing had shed all his responsibilities and fulfilled his promise to become Ye Shiqi, Xiao Yao's servant. The two don't do much else in the video because they lack any common interests. The video abruptly cuts off at 5 seconds, shorter than the 8 seconds of Cang Xuan and Xiang Liu's videos. This brief duration suggests Jing's limited lifespan, which is caused by his use of the Lamp of Time to uncover the truth about his night with Fangfeng Yiying.
Xiang Liu's video, titled "Xiao Yao and Xiang Liu's Cute Gesture Dance" (小夭相柳可爱手势舞), was released on June 28, 2024. In the video, Xiao Yao and Xiang Liu are smiling and dancing synchronously side by side. The video is split into two frames, highlighting the dual identities of Xiang Liu and Fangfeng Bei, which may suggest that Xiao Yao appreciates all facets of his personality. Both characters are dressed in matching couple's attire, emphasizing their connection. This cute and upbeat video hints at a potential happy reunion for YaoLiu in the future.
By the same token, if the lover has any form of intimacy with anyone else but their love for each other remains unwavering, the bugs are in no danger of retaliation, because the heart is still true to each other.liddi:
After discussing with AH, I have to admit that neither the novel nor the drama seem to suggest that intimacy with or romantic feelings for another person would necessarily cause the bugs to retaliate. As much as I would like to interpret "同心" as "全心“, I don't know if there is any concrete evidence to back that up. That said, most people would not be OK with their significant other having romantic feelings for another person. That might cause feelings of heartbreak, thereby triggering the bugs to retaliate. This is probably why the witch king was surprised and incredulous to see Jing with Xiao Yao instead of the person she shared the poisonous bug with. In normal circumstances, this would triggered feelings of heartbreak and caused the bugs to retaliate.
Yes. In Once Promised, he always leave me with a feeling of regret because I love his character despite his ruthlessness and moral ambiguity, and rooted for him very much, far more than I did Chi Chen.
Shao Hao is not selfless - if anything, he is calculative, patient, manipulative and cunning - with good reason. Without those traits, he would have died long ago, seeing how his life was always at risk ever since he was a child, being betrayed over and over by those he thought he could trust. Qing Yang himself admitted to A Heng that even he was afraid of Gaoxin Shao Hao, because that identity encompassed his ambitions and love for his country, which may one day override their friendship. And despite their fast friendship, Shao and Qing Yang both knew that one day, if they were kings of their own kingdoms, they would go to war against each other and will kill one another. It was stated as a matter of fact, without any sadness, because they knew where their path would take them ultimately. You can also see how Shao Hao manipulated the situation with Nuo Nai - framing his betrothed and forcing the engagement to be dissolved so that Nuo Nai's Xi He tribe would not be allied with the Chang Xi tribe that opposed him; then later used Nuo Nai's love for Yun Sang to manipulate him to infiltrate the Shen Nong army. The real reason for Xiao Yao's grand 3rd birthday celebrations was to have the previous Eminent Emperor declare clearly to all his sons and everyone present that he abdicated to Shao Hao out of his own will so that his reign would not be challenged anymore.
Thanks for the additional insights into this fascinating character. You're right Shao Hao was extremely calculative, manipulative and cunning--traits we also find in Jing. That makes me wonder if I would have like Jing more if he appeared more decisive, competent, and ruthless. Probably yes. Although, perhaps a more important difference between Shao Hao and Jing is that Shao Hao seemed to prioritize the good of his nation and people. Jing only cared about being with Xiao Yao.
That being said, whatever decisions he made, ultimately he did it with the wellbeing of his people in mind, even if he had to sacrifice his own chance at happiness because of it. As much as he loved A Heng in the end, he never forced her against her will - if anything, he gave her agency to determine how their relationship went. If A Heng had learnt to love him, would she have found happiness? I believe so. Shao Hao would have loved and cherished her just as he wholeheartedly loved Xiao Yao.
Would it be fair to say that Shao Hao, in contrast to King Xuan Yuan, showed integrity towards the people he cared most about? I know he and Qing Yang both knew that they were fated to fight each other one day if both of them became king, but in the context of the novel, that was just the inevitable trend of the world, and both of them acknowledged this fact, so it's not like it would have been a backstabbing betrayal.
As much as I would like to interpret "同心" as "全心“, I don't know if there is any evidence to back that up. That said, most people would not be OK with their significant other having romantic feelings for another person. That might cause feelings of heartbreak, thereby causing the bugs to retaliate.
No. I don't see 同心 as indicating that there cannot be love for anyone else. However, the love between the lovers cannot be displaced as a result of it. My interpretation is that heartbreak alone is insufficient, even if it was their lover who broke their heart. It had to be accompanied by 离心 which means that either one of them have fallen out of love or chosen to stop loving the other. Only then would the Lovers bugs be transformed into Heartbreak bugs and kill both of them.
While it appears to give freedom for the couple to potentially love others, it is not as simple as it looks because the bugs know clearly when the love they share is threatened and guards it jealously. As such, there is no room for an unfaithful lover, nor a lover who has fallen out of love, or wants to take their love back. That leaves the couple with an extremely narrow path to tread without risking death.
Thanks for the additional insights into this fascinating character. You're right Shao Hao was extremely calculative, manipulative and cunning--traits we also find in Jing. That makes me wonder if I would have like Jing more if he appeared more decisive, competent, and ruthless. Probably yes.
That is food for thought. Would you have ended up a Jinger if he had those additional traits?
Would it be fair to say that Shao Hao, in contrast to King Xuan Yuan, showed integrity towards the people he cared most about? I know he and Qing Yang both knew that they were fated to fight each other one day if both of them became king, but in the context of the novel, that was just the inevitable trend of the world, and both of them acknowledged this fact, so it's not like it would have been a backstabbing betrayal.
I think he tried, but the greater good always outweighed the well-being of those closest to him. Nuo Nai was his close friend, but he did not hesitate to use him if it benefited his plans. Before Qing Yang died, he promised Qing Yang that he would protect his family like his own but ultimately he could not keep his promise in the face of his greater responsibility to the Gao Xin people. He kept his promise to A Heng with regards to their marriage, guided and respected her, and truly loved Xiao Yao like she was his own. Still, his hands were tied and ultimately he could not follow his heart and had to accept that he had lost her in the end.
I don't really disagree with anything you said, but some of this still sort of seems similar to XL and XY for me.
Thank you for sharing the parallels you see!
Idk what XL would have done if XY had agreed to run away with FFB when he half-seriously made his offer, but (as you said) I don't think he would have abandoned the Shengnong remnant army. Just as I presume Chi You would not have abandoned the Shengnong army if Ah Heng had agreed to run away with him before the war was over. The idea that they would run away together "after the war was over" with both of them unscathed and able to cut ties with their prior loyalties sort of seems like a fantasy. Maybe it's easy to say that with the benefit of already knowing how their stories ended. Idk. I can see both differences and similarities between the two couples on this point.
I don't think A Heng intended for him to run away with her before the war was over. She divorced Shao Hao to show Chi Chen that she was finally free to be with him. From the way I see it, she would have gone to be with Chi Chen then, and Chi Chen told Yun Sang he would return all military power back to her once he defeated Xuan Yuan, which meant that he truly intended to leave. The only problem was that after A Heng divorced Shao Hao, she expected the Yellow Emperor's fury, not knowing that he would return severely wounded and close to death. When that happened, her familial ties made it impossible for her to leave her father anymore until she had nursed him back to health. She thought Chi Chen would actually try to kill her father to avenge Yu Xiang, not knowing that Chi Chen actually stayed his hand and the life-threatening injuries were inflicted by her own father.
I remember we discussed before how ultimately it is impossible for them to leave completely without feeling compelled to be involved in the political situation of the Great Wilderness once more. Still, I think with Chi Chen and A Heng's decisive characters, perhaps they might have had some semblance of a chance to carve out their own happy lives together away from it all.
It seems like the biggest difference came down to XL's choices though, in keeping his feelings secret and not making promises to XY / not pursuing a relationship with XY. And it seems like XL's choices might have been the main reason that XY was able to avoid an ending that would have been similar to her mother's tragic fate.
Youtuber 说书的李美仁 said this:
"Xiao Yao's grandmother A Xie chose someone like Cang Xuan, while Xiao Yao's mother chose someone like Xiang Liu. Their choices ended up in tragedy. As such, Xiao Yao took a path totally different from theirs, and finally had a good ending with Jing."
What do you think of this statement?
While true on the surface, I don't agree with that assessment. As you said, Xiang Liu's choices ensured Xiao Yao had an ending that was not tragic. It was not a path she chose - it was already chosen for her, repeatedly, relentlessly, with the shutting of doors and opportunities that would have allowed them to be together, because he refused to risk Xiao Yao's long-term well-being, even if the cost was his own happiness. He stayed true to his men, and gave her the most selfless love even though he had to take himself out of the picture, out of her life to do so. And much as it hurts me to say this, TJC is right in saying that he was at peace having fulfilled everything he set out to do, and when he died, he was finally free.
she had no reason to think that she might be able to get together with XL or TSJ in the future if she did divorce Feng Long.
She was resigned to a bland life with Feng Long if they married, and had even envisioned having children with him. But in the midst of that, she did the most courageous thing I have seen her do by sending the ice crystal globe, baring her heart, subjecting it to such vulnerability in trying to to reach out and grasp her own happiness for once. On the other hand, A Heng fought desperately to reject the marriage alliance, running away in spite of her injuries to keep their date under the peach blossom tree, waited in vain, then came back and endured further torture until she was finally convinced by Qing Yang why she had to marry Shao Hao.
While Chi Chen and Fangfeng Bei interrupted their wedding respectively, A Heng refused to leave with Chi Chen even though she wanted to, whereas Xiao Yao was forced to do so, though I believe she was ultimately glad he did even though his method and the killing of Fangfeng Bei devastated her.
Later on, XY chooses to marry TSJ (an acceptable match for her as far as her father, her grandfather, and Sir Bi were concerned and eventually a match that even CX came to accept) despite her feelings for XL. We never find out that the wedding has been consumated in the novel...
Very true. Certainly nothing happened on the wedding night. Nonetheless, several days had passed before she learnt of Xiang Liu's death. Still, we never knew for sure if it was consummated, unlike Tong Hua's other heroines where there is no room for doubt as and when it did happen.
My interpretation is that heartbreak alone is insufficient, even if it was their lover who broke their heart.
Fair, XY was likely heartbroken over XL's rejections several times during the course of the novel, but the bugs never retaliated.
While it appears to give freedom for the couple to potentially love others, it is not as simple as it looks because the bugs know clearly when the love they share is threatened and guards it jealously. As such, there is no room for an unfaithful lover, nor a lover who has fallen out of love, or wants to take their love back. That leaves the couple with an extremely narrow path to tread without risking death.
That's my assessment as well. Under normal circumstances, loving others romantically would set off feelings of jealousy and betrayal which would likely lead to 离心, causing the bugs to retaliate.
Thanks for the additional insights into this fascinating character. You're right Shao Hao was extremely calculative, manipulative and cunning--traits we also find in Jing. That makes me wonder if I would have like Jing more if he appeared more decisive, competent, and ruthless. Probably yes. Although, perhaps a more important difference between Shao Hao and Jing is that Shao Hao seemed to prioritize the good of his nation and people. Jing only cared about being with Xiao Yao.
That is food for thought. Would you have ended up a Jinger if he had those additional traits?
Jing is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for me. The bar really couldn't be set any lower. Perhaps "like" isn't the best word for how my feelings for Jing would change if he were more decisive, competent, and ruthless. I certainly would have found him to be a more compelling character, but I still can't see myself being team YaoJing because:
- Jing was clingy, possessive, and a stalker. These are also traits we see in Chi Chen (perhaps to a lesser degree), and part of the reason I don't like Chi Chen. Any woman who meets a man with these qualities should immediately run and report this behavior to the police.
- Jing tied his life and to a woman instead of living his own life. That is not something I respect.
- Jing's reason for liking Xiao Yao was because she validated his worth as a man, not because he loved who she was as a person. Had FFYY liked Jing and not been disgusted by him, I'm not convinced he would have been as attached to Xiao Yao. Jing and Xiao Yao had zero interests in common, which does not set a good foundation for a fulfilling relationship.
- Jing was selfish. His motivations for doing the things he did was to benefit himself, not XY, not his family, not the world at large.
- Even if all of Jing's other personality defects were magically washed away, and he became exactly like Shao Hao, I still wouldn't root for him. Although I like Shao Hao a lot more than Chi Chen, I don't like him more than XL--especially not for XY, who just wants to lead a normal life. Part of the reason XY liked Jing was because he was so kind-hearted. At his core, Shao Hao is ambitious and will step over anyone to get what he wants. In contrast, at his core XL is kind, loyal, and giving.
Youtuber 说书的李美仁 said this:
"Xiao Yao's grandmother A Xie chose someone like Cang Xuan, while Xiao Yao's mother chose someone like Xiang Liu. Their choices ended up in tragedy. As such, Xiao Yao took a path totally different from theirs, and finally had a good ending with Jing."
What do you think of this statement?
While true on the surface, I don't agree with that assessment. As you said, Xiang Liu's choices ensured Xiao Yao had an ending that was not tragic. It was not a path she chose - it was already chosen for her, repeatedly, relentlessly, with the shutting of doors and opportunities that would have allowed them to be together, because he refused to risk Xiao Yao's long-term well-being, even if the cost was his own happiness.
I also don't agree with the assessment. Taking away Xiao Yao's agency to choose is not the same as her choosing that path for herself. I also don't feel that novel Xiao Yao was all that satisfied with her outcome at the end. Despite XL's good intentions, I'm not convinced that he did the best thing for Xiao Yao in keeping her in the dark about his feelings and repeatedly pushing her away.
I believe Xiao Yao mainly rejected Xiang Liu because she wanted to honor her promise to always be loyal to Cang Xuan. Had XL confessed his feelings, I still don't think XY would have agreed to abandon CX to be with XL, especially before CX became king and his safety was assured and his ambitions were realized. If XL had confessed his feelings, the outcome may have been very much the same in that XY and XL might have decided they can't be together despite loving each other.
The difference is that I don't think XY would have sought or accepted a relationship with Jing, or any other person had she been secure in XL's love for her. Not having to deal with Jing would have spared XY a lot of heartache.
Rain_83223:
@Kokuto “A Tong Hua book with a happy ending???”
Rant Warning**
Lol I want to imagine…Thinking about it more, why couldn’t TongHua just have made XY wander the world along with Ah Nian and Ru Shuo doing whatever they pleased (or better, find their purpose devoting themselves to a cause)? Why did the central conflict have to revolve around XY finding a lifelong (romantic) companion, as if it were the most important thing in her life and something she had to do? I mean this suits TongHua’s view that love isn’t everything in life pretty well too.
The real answer is that TongHua woke up one day and decided that she wanted to torture the readers.
Tell me about it! XY is the Queen of "Woe is me". Love me, my parents abandoned me...I ran away from the safest place in DaHuang but you should feel sorry for me either way. Today, I'm on a XY hating streak. (ಥ﹏ಥ)
Hopefully tomorrow I will be better.
Meow:
Have you ever heard the theory that XY is the incarnation of the goddess Nyuwa, who killed Xian Liu?
"The writer described myths from the Classic of Mountains and Seas in the novel. It states that Xian Liu, according to one version, was killed by Yu the Great, and according to another version, by the goddess Nüwa after he was defeated by the god Zhurong. However, the most interesting thing is that Wikipedia mentions that Yu the Great's wife was a woman from the Tushan clan."
At one point, XY really did kill XL. She didn't do anything for him.
Perhaps someone has already explained the legend of the Sea and Mountains book and can also explain this theory?
The most commonly known legend is that Xiang Liu was killed by the Great Yu. And yes, his wife was from the Tushan clan.
According to 淮南子 Huainanzi / The Writings of the Huainan Masters, 女娲 Nüwa and her brother Fuxi had the body of a serpent and the head of a human. She and Fuxi were siblings as well as husband and wife. To save the world that was in chaos due to the battle between Gong Gong and Zhuan Xu, she patched the azure sky and killed the black dragon which as the essence of water, was the cause of floods. As such, there are some theories that the black dragon referred to Xiang Liu, who was Gong Gong's minister.
The Huainanzi relates Nüwa to the time when Heaven and Earth were in disruption:
Going back to more ancient times, the four pillars were broken; the nine provinces were in tatters. Heaven did not completely cover [the earth]; Earth did not hold up [Heaven] all the way around [its circumference]. Fires blazed out of control and could not be extinguished; water flooded in great expanses and would not recede. Ferocious animals ate blameless people; predatory birds snatched the elderly and the weak. Thereupon, Nüwa smelted together five-colored stones in order to patch up the azure sky, cut off the legs of the great turtle to set them up as the four pillars, killed the black dragon to provide relief for Ji Province, and piled up reeds and cinders to stop the surging waters. The azure sky was patched; the four pillars were set up; the surging waters were drained; the province of Ji was tranquil; crafty vermin died off; blameless people [preserved their] lives.
The catastrophes were supposedly caused by the battle between the deities Gonggong and Zhuanxu (an event that was mentioned earlier in the Huainanzi),[b] the five-colored stones symbolize the five Chinese elements (wood, fire, earth, metal, and water), the black dragon was the essence of water and thus cause of the floods, Ji Province serves metonymically for the central regions (the Sinitic world).[12] Following this, the Huainanzi tells about how the sage-rulers Nüwa and Fuxi set order over the realm by following the Way (道) and its potency (德).[9]
cr. Wiki
Note though that Xiang Liu is only mentioned in 山海经 Classics of Mountains and Seas, not in the Huainanzi. There are theories that suggest that Gong Gong, Xiang Liu etc were cultural heroes who were later maligned to take on the negative aspects of Yu and his followers:
According to historical records, there are many similarities between Gong Gong, Ju Long, Xiang Liu, Gun, Yu, and Qi. However, their relationships are not entirely consistent or interconnected; they can only be transformed into or exchanged with one another.
In the earliest records, they were all cultural heroes and great ancestors who controlled floods and invented things. However, figures like Gong Gong, Ju Long, and Xiang Liu were later distorted and transformed beyond recognition in ancient texts to the point where they were portrayed as having no redeeming quality, and even became culprits who caused floods, destroyed crops, and ultimately the villains who were killed by Yu and others.
Apart from biases from tribal conflicts, later misunderstandings, and distortions in Confucian texts, from a mythological perspective, mythological figures often experience shifts between good and evil, and their roles can interchange. Gong Gong and his series of figures thus came to embody the "mistakes" and negative aspects attributed to Yao, Yu and their followers.
The image of Yao was already badly tarnished, and eventually, all of Gun's "misdeeds" were ascribed to Gong Gong and his group. Consequently, they were degraded into the fearsome creature with a body of a serpent and nine heads that coiled around itself, the 雄虺 xionghui. The xionghui was a monster that would "devour people to nourish its heart", a threat to humanity, requiring sacrifice and offerings.
cr. source
Nüwa and Fuxi's son 少典 Shao Dian was the father to the Yellow Emperor. As such, that would make Xiao Yao the descendant of Nüwa.
I have not come across any theory that states Xiao Yao was the incarnation of Nüwa though.
And if we were to go by Tong Hua's universe, Xiao Yao did not kill Xiang Liu. He died, willingly giving two (three in the drama) of his lives for her, and sacrificing the rest for Hong Jiang and his men.
That's my assessment as well. Under normal circumstances, loving others romantically would set off feelings of jealousy and betrayal which would likely lead to 离心, causing the bugs to retaliate.
Agreed. Which then goes to show that Xiao Yao's love for Xiang Liu never stopped nor changed, and Xiang Liu in the novel never chose to stop loving her either, regardless of how painful it would have been for him, to be able to sense her intimacy with another man.
Perhaps "like" isn't the best word for how my feelings for Jing would change if he were more decisive, competent, and ruthless. I certainly would have found him to be a more compelling character
Jing tied his life and to a woman instead of living his own life.
Point #2 clearly goes against what Tong Hua specifically said when she talked about LYF and the kind of love she wanted to convey. Likewise his decision to die when he thought she was dead, tethering his entire existence on hers. In contrast, we see the love Tong Hua described through everything Xiang Liu tried to tell Xiao Yao repeatedly across the entire novel, and what Xiao Yao finally had to learn to live with after he had died:
(These are stories I read many years ago, but as I write this, I suddenly realised that I cannot remember Mrs. Hu's name except that she was Hu Yidao's wife, but I can clearly remember Wu Xuanshuang's name. This seems to indirectly imply how one woman made her life dependent on a man, while another woman lived out her own life regardless of how strong her love was.)
What Lost You Forever conveys is a kind of love that "lives [on]". I always feel that in this world, while love is soul-stirring, it is not everything in life.
Familial relationships, friendships, ideals, responsibilities... people have all kinds of ties in this world, and there are a lot of blessings and happiness that do not come from romantic love.
Eternal yearning for each other happens because there is profound love, because it cannot be obtained, because it cannot be forgotten. However, I am willing to bear with all these emotions and live well.
Life is a series of encounters and partings; it is a series of forgetting (leaving behind) and beginnings.
You were once here, you have left.
Even though I find it difficult to stop missing you, I will still smile when I see the beautiful rainbow.
-- 桐华tonghua 2013-02-26 09:35:53
Even if all of Jing's other personality defects were magically washed away, and he became exactly like Shao Hao, I still wouldn't root for him. Although I like Shao Hao a lot more than Chi Chen, I don't like him more than XL--especially not for XY, who just wants to lead a normal life. Part of the reason XY liked Jing was because he was so kind-hearted. At his core, Shao Hao is ambitious and will step over anyone to get what he wants. In contrast, at his core XL is kind, loyal, and giving.
Did you finish reading the entire Once Promised? Like you, much as I rooted for Shao Hao, I knew he was not the best choice for a husband, not for A Heng, and definitely not for someone like Xiao Yao. He would always weigh her against the greater good of his people, and I cannot see him walk away from everything he fought so hard to obtain, just to spend a simple life with her. In that regard and others, he is vastly different from Xiang Liu, who could not walk away even if he wanted to - his involuntary question to Xiao Yao as Fangfeng Bei about leaving everything and roaming the world together was a hint of what he longed to be able to do, if fate had been kinder. Tong Hua said it so well when she described him as "a demon who should have been so unfettered and free but instead trapped himself with responsibility."; his love for his adoptive father and his comrades becoming the chains that he could not, would not break free from, even for the sake of his own happiness.
That being said, ultimately, Shao Hao's ability to give up his throne to Cang Xuan speaks volumes about how far he had become, though when we think about it, ultimately his decision is no different from what drove him through the years - which once again hinges first and foremost on the well-being of his people, knowing that unification of the Great Wilderness was inevitable, but not willing that Gao Xin become a conquered people. Hence, the marriage alliance and the appointment of Cang Xuan as his successor was a masterstroke that ensured that Gao Xin as a people could lift their heads high under their new ruler.
Jing in the novel is far more likeable than in the drama. To me, one of the greatest highlights for Jing was not how he protected Xiao Yao's body during the Plum Forest assassination, but how he fought so hard to protect Yi Ying out of compassion and also for young Tian's sake. That reaffirmed who he was at the core, a man who was clearly not a fool, but willing to give those who harmed him a chance to change, to stop without making things worse for themselves. Unfortunately, the drama did him no favours in this part of the story, and all I saw was someone who manipulated Yi Ying into accepting the punishment in exchange for her son's well-being, who did not even make any attempt to dissuade her when she offered herself up as a sacrifice.
I believe Xiao Yao mainly rejected Xiang Liu because she wanted to honor her promise to always be loyal to Cang Xuan. Had XL confessed his feelings, I still don't think XY would have agreed to abandon CX to be with XL, especially before CX became king and his safety was assured and his ambitions were realized.
I agree that her love and loyalty to Cang Xuan played a huge role - that was also the reason she decided to leave Qingshui Town when she knew Cang Xuan's identity, knowing way before Xiang Liu the impossibility of their situation. However, her internal monologue after the 37 years, clearly indicated that her refusal to allow him to pass air to her that previous time was because of the 15-year promise. She had already experienced arousal when he drank her blood in the healing pool before that, so she was aware of her feelings towards him. As such, it stands to reason that she was afraid that if he did kiss her, she would fall even deeper, and not be able to keep the 15-year promise. Not that it did her much good anyway, seeing he still entered her dreams regardless.
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