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Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

ZYHLJ

@blabla100

Shake your hands like crazy, my friend!

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ZYHLJ

@Kokuto


Indeed, if Cang Xuan dies and his uncle succeeds to the throne, the chances of Xiang Liu and Chenrong army surviving will become greater, but even so it will not be greater than the chance of them being wiped out. Because after all, there are only tens of thousands of Chenrong army left, and Cang Xuan's uncles are not idiots. The extent to which an individual can change history is limited, Xiang Liu does know that. Therefore, Xiang Liu's assassination of Cang Xuan was indeed to gain opportunities for himself and Chenrong army, but he did always know that his most likely future was death (even if Cang Xuan did not succeed), so he did not pursue Xiao Yao. You know, Xiao Yao is a girl who will follow her fiancé to death!

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nathsketch VIP

XL has been an option from the very beginning. Everything about him is ML-coded. Every interaction, every time he shows up on screen, and very likely the same thing can be said about the novel too. 

The only reason why he was not the endgame is because Tong Hua couldn’t figure out a clever way to keep him alive. That’s all. So now we keep arguing about him being suicidal or not, being a martyr or not.

Enter Jing.  He is what Plor keeps saying he is: nothing more than a plot device. His character is barely developed past the “good (eh, not so much), intelligent (erm) guy who checks all the boxes and is able to play pretend with the protagonist”. His entire existence lies on being attached to XY, one way or the other. Basically no personality outside of being what she wants him to be. Whatever he was before Hou tortured him is lost forever as well.

Anyway, so to say XL was never an option is not entirely true. He pushed XY away, that’s a fact, but she has never been too clever either. We keep saying she had no way of telling what his feelings for her were because she’s not privy to all the facts as we are, but maybe if she wasn’t so self absorbed, she, like any other woman, would have realized what was going on. All those transaction excuses were so lame and yet she bought them as a sort of confirmation bias. Everything he did and yet she was conveniently unaware.

And even if he was always destined to die considering the current political situation, have these people never heard of soldiers having a wife and a family? Well, at least normal wives who cherish their precious moments together and not demand to never be left alone. Imagine the selfishness of a person who only cares about something like this. Zero empathy with her wishes and demands. She acts like she was the only one who had a sob story. She wasn’t the first and she won’t be the last considering what she and good guy Jing will do to the Tushan kid in order to have their non-tragic ending.

The only way we can say that XL was never an option is if we consider him more than just a doormat that exists solely to provide everything that XY has on her little list of unrealistically ludicrous demands. Yet even so, he ended up providing everything she wished for. The irony. 

Another irony: giving his condition by the end of the story, Jing will probably expire way sooner than Xiao Yao hehehehe so not a suitable option after all. Roll credits!

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Kokuto
 ZYHLJ:

@Kokuto


Indeed, if Cang Xuan dies and his uncle succeeds to the throne, the chances of Xiang Liu and Chenrong army surviving will become greater, but even so it will not be greater than the chance of them being wiped out. Because after all, there are only tens of thousands of Chenrong army left, and Cang Xuan's uncles are not idiots. The extent to which an individual can change history is limited, Xiang Liu does know that. Therefore, Xiang Liu's assassination of Cang Xuan was indeed to gain opportunities for himself and Chenrong army, but he did always know that his most likely future was death (even if Cang Xuan did not succeed), so he did not pursue Xiao Yao. You know, Xiao Yao is a girl who will follow her fiancé to death!


If CX died, then Haolin would have remained independent and in opposition to Xiyan, instead of being absorbed into Xiyan, like Chenrong was.  The supremely competent and Beloved Ru Shou would never have been drafted to fight against XL.  It was CX taking over Haolin that allowed Xiyan to turn it's full attention, and army -- as well as the Haolin army, against the Resistance Army.

Had one of the Uncles succeeded, they would not have been given Haolin, and would have oppressed Chenrong as they stated was their plan, which would have pushed them toward revolt and war again -- led by a toughened and seasoned Resistance Army.

One individual, CX, did change history.

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blabla100
 ZYHLJ:

@blabla100

Shake your hands like crazy, my friend!

Same, my friend! Lol :) 

@nathsketch

I am honestly not trying to downplay XL, I always thought that lyf  is mostly about the impossible love story between 2 people who met at the wrong time / too late. When I say XL was never an option, I don't mean it as XL is not ML material, on the contrary, what I mean îs that he didn't put himself as an option for XY to pick from, giving  his principles towards the army and his unselfishness towards XY. Those 2 go one against eachother. He is basically the protagonist of a love story that's impossible to ever be, but nevertheless the protagonist. Both him and XY were, but it's like picking between mom and dad, basically. Could you pick one over the other without blaming yourself and your choice for the rest of your life? XL chose to stay loyal to the army, while also helping XY along the road and ultimately make her wishes come true. I understand what TH means when she said that she wanted to make him the end game but didn't know how. If XL ever thought of helping his army, while also seriously and not only as a moment of weakness fantasizing about a future with XY în the end  too than I guess my impression of XL is totally wrong and I failed to get his character at all. 

Also, totally agree with Jing being just a plot device. 

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Kokuto
 blabla100:

@kokuto

"Because he wanted XY to push him away, not because he was right."

Then again, if he didn't think that what that old man îs saying is right, why would he want XY to push him away? This is just running în circles, trying to figure out which came first between the chicken and the egg. 

So, your contention is that XL / FFB thinks that XY should be Jing's side piece, rather than FFB's wife?

I'm sorry, I just do not think XL / FFB would ever believe that is true, especially given that he knows one of her requirements is to be the only woman in her man's life.

I don't think it's a case of the chicken and the egg, but that there's several obstacles between XL and XY but having an unknown expiration date (which everyone has) isn't the biggest one.

He pushes XY away, because they are enemies.  He pushes her away because he doesn't want to put XY in the same situation as Ah Heng, her mother.  He pushes her away, because he can't be the doormat she says she wants.  He pushes her away, because he isn't just FFB, he is XL.

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blabla100

@kokuto

"So, your contention is that XL / FFB thinks that XY should be Jing's side piece, rather than FFB's wife?"

No,  that's not what he agreed to. What he agreed to was that even someone like Jing, who got tricked into a marriage he didn't ask for is a better option than him, who has no guarantee of a tomorrow. It's quite different than what you said. 

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Kokuto
 blabla100:

@kokuto

"So, your contention is that XL / FFB thinks that XY should be Jing's side piece, rather than FFB's wife?"

No,  that's not what he agreed to. What he agreed to was that even someone like Jing, who got tricked into a marriage he didn't ask for is a better option than him, who has no guarantee of a tomorrow. It's quite different than what you said. 

Uhh, yes, that's exactly what FFB"agreed" to.


 blabla100:
"Let me tell you straight up, Fang Feng Bei’s life is here today with no guarantee of tomorrow. Even Jing who made a mistake is a better choice than Fang Feng Bei……..”

Xiao Yao slammed her wine bowl on the table and gave Li Jie Chang a piercing look “I’m already engaged and my fiancee isn’t him. So please, please, I beg you stop stepping all over Bei!”

.....

Xiao Yao glared at Chang and said to Fang Feng Bei “You are sure even-tempered with this guy.”

Fang Feng Bei drank his wine and said casually “Every word he said is the truth. I’m not a guy suitable for a woman to follow. Isn’t that something you already know?”


EVERY WORD.  Including these words Jing's casino owner said:

 blabla100:
Li Jie Chang said “You don’t like the wife and son in Qing Qiu, then just have another residence here in Zhi Yi and have Jing live here with you


And neither Li Jie Chang or FFB are saying that FFB doesn't have a guarantee of tomorrow, i.e. could be dead.  But that his sojourn in the city is not guaranteed, as he doesn't even have a home in the city, or as FFB clarifies, his woman would have to follow him.

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blabla100

@kokuto

Maybe I am not good at explaining my points, when I have lots of thoughts running through my mind, my english becomes worse / confusing.  Let me try again. 

Yes, he did agree to what that guy was saying, but that guy's main point wasn't  that "XY should be Jing's side piece, rather than FFB's wife", as you put it, but that FFB is even a worse choice than Jing, giving their situations. Basically if you have to choose between 2 bad situations, choose the one that's less harmful. You'll probably won't agree with Jing being the less harmful choice, but again, this is just running în circles. 

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Kokuto
 blabla100:

@kokuto

Maybe I am not good at explaining my points, when I have lots of thoughts running through my mind, my english becomes worse / confusing.  Let me try again. 

Yes, he did agree to what that guy was saying, but that guy's main point wasn't  that "XY should be Jing's side piece, rather than FFB's wife", as you put it, but that FFB is even a worse choice than Jing, giving their situations. Basically if you have to choose between 2 bad situations, choose the one that's less harmful. 

Again. Any unbiased person would see FFB is the better choice by any metric.  Li Jie Chang is not unbiased.  And I think that's exactly the main point he made.  Being Jing's mistress is better than FFB's wife.

The less harmful choice is the unmarried man who you love, who can kill anything that would harm you dead dead dead.

There is no world where being the side piece for an unreliable, rich. influential, married man, with a kid, is less harmful than following the man you love.  Unless you value a rich and easy life over being humiliated and branded second rate, and your children named bastards.

And that's not taking into account the jealousy of the wife spurring her on to attacks on your life, as FFYY and Ying Yue tried with XY.

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nathsketch VIP

I think we keep discussing Xiang Liu's character and how Tong Hua could have written him differently in order to make him the endgame or give him a more satisfying ending or whatever (for those of us who would like any sort of change), when in reality he is not the problem. He is and always has been the solution. He is the one who empowers, unlike the other one, who entraps and fails to deliver. That's why any changes on him are so hard to write and would probably mess up his essence.

Xiao Yao is the problem. She's the one who would have to undergo a major change. Only then she would be the strong female character that some people perceive her to be. As she is now, she's just another flawed FL who thinks herself to be tougher and more intelligent than she is. She was indeed tougher and less idiotic when she was a man, which is - and I keep repeating this - a very strange message to convey.

Her mom was a strong female character. XY is just a sad version of the previous generation, deceiving everyone around her and, most importantly, herself. Some portion of the audience can see this, the other portion buys what she says at face value and so the disagreement arises, especially when it comes to her decisions towards Jing. If we take things too literally, all her dialogues as they are presented in the text, we would be fooled into thinking that Jing is the greatest guy ever, which I think we can all agree is a lie.

XY isn't and will never be a role model. I don't sympathize/empathize with her one bit and I also don't feel compelled to be sad for her just because I'm also a woman. Awful characters are awful characters no matter their genders. If she was a man, really a man for the entirety of the story, I'm pretty certain people would be up in arms considering her selfishness, her entitlement, and the way she keeps stringing multiple guys along. The majority of those characters have suffered, have been abused, tortured, and/or abandoned, but somehow XY gets a free pass due to "trauma". Every questionable behavior is brushed off because of her trauma. Show me one of the major characters who doesn't have some sort of trauma. Their whole lives are built on trauma.

So her decisions, her thoughts, and her outbursts need to be taken with a huge grain of salt, and if there is a true manifestation of the line-in-the-grass technique that TH used in her writings, it can be seen in the whole of Xiao Yao's character. What she feels and what she says are usually in stark contrast. She is the ultimate unreliable narrator. And she experiences virtually zero growth by the end of the story. Being able to breathe underwater doesn't count lmao not even that was something achieved by herself.

That's the true tragedy.

TL;DR: "Bish, XL ain't the problem, you are".

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blabla100

@kokuto

No, this is just a matter of personal opinions.  We can both look at the same glass and ask eachother if it's half full or if it's actually half empty. Also, I really don't believe I am biased, I really don't like Jing at all and whatever opinion I say about XL is not meant to downplay him in any shape or form.  And honestly at the end of the day, for me it's easier to cope with the idea that it was XL who took the decision of not pursuing XY, rather than believing that XY chose someone like Jing over XL. 

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Kokuto
 blabla100:

@kokuto

No, this is just a matter of personal opinions.  We can both look at the same glass and ask eachother if it's half full or if it's actually half empty. Also, I really don't believe I am biased, I really don't like Jing at all and whatever opinion I say about XL is not meant to downplay him in any shape or form. 

I'm not saying you are biased. I'm saying that Li Jie Chang is biased when tells XY that Married Jing is a so much better choice than FFB.

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Kokuto
 blabla100:
I am honestly not trying to downplay XL, I always thought that lyf is mostly about the impossible love story between 2 people who met at the wrong time / too late.

I do agree that Tong Hua set up the characters and situations such that didn't allow the XL / XY's love story to come to fruition.  They repeatedly missed their chances.


 blabla100:
When I say XL was never an option, I don't mean it as XL is not ML material, on the contrary, what I mean îs that he didn't put himself as an option for XY to pick from, giving his principles towards the army and his unselfishness towards XY.

This is where we fundamentally disagree.  XL did put himself as an option when he accepted the Lovers Bug, because AT THAT TIME, he could fulfill the demands of both the army and WXL.  It wasn't until WXL became XY and changed her demands and changed into an enemy, that XL intentions as her lover were trashed.  And things were further trashed, when the situation with the army changed because of CX.


 blabla100:
XL chose to stay loyal to the army, while also helping XY along the road and ultimately make her wishes come true.

XL wasn't entirely loyal to the army, as he did put XY before them, when he let CX live.  Hmmmm  Which makes me wonder, if that had some thing to do with him dying with his men?  But generally speaking, as best as he could in an impossible situation, he expressed his love and commitment to both of them.


 blabla100:
If XL ever thought of helping his army, while also fantasizing about a future with XY în the end, than I guess my impression of XL is totally wrong and I failed to get his character at all.

Well, the casting sheet did say exactly that. :)

But I don't think you've failed to get the character.  I do think you are insisting that he remain the exact same person with the exact same goals from the beginning of the book to the end -- in effect, reversed engineered his intent.  But XL as a character, as well as his goals, changed as the story went along and situations changed.


blabla100:
I can't win with you, Kokuto :) let's just say we have different views on things. I am still sticking to my story, any other theory is just not convincing enough to me.

Apparently, I can't change your mind either.  lol

But yes, these are the two fundamental different views on XL that we have.  I don't think XL and his goal were the same throughout the book.  And I think him accepting the Lovers Bug showed that he did want a future with his love.

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Kokuto
 nathsketch:
I think we keep discussing Xiang Liu's character and how Tong Hua could have written him differently in order to make him the endgame or give him a more satisfying ending or whatever (for those of us who would like any sort of change), when in reality he is not the problem. He is and always has been the solution. He is the one who empowers, unlike the other one, who entraps and fails to deliver. That's why any changes on him are so hard to write and would probably mess up his essence.

Xiao Yao is the problem. She's the one who would have to undergo a major change.


 nathsketch:
TL;DR: "Bish, XL ain't the problem, you are".

 LOL!

I can definitely feel this.

I usually espouse different circumstances, but I'm not sure if even there had been a few changes in events, like CX dying before his identity was revealed,  if XY would have gotten things together to appreciate XL.

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