Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

 blabla100:

I am not sure how the chinese translation for it is exactly

The lyrics do not imply that Chi Chen has to be "the one" in A Heng's eyes and heart. What the song asks is that he can exist in her eyes and heart. There is no allusion to exclusivity.

But that being said, Chi Chen, as you said, asks, only for a sincere, true love from A Heng. It did not matter to Chi Chen if she was married to Shao Hao and had a child with him. For his love for her, he learnt forbearance, respected her choices and curbed his love for 400 years, waiting only for the day when she would openly acknowledge her love for him.

 liddi:

Except this time, when Mao Qiu comes to, it is already "After I am gone...", and he is well and truly alone, with no trace left behind of his master and companion of 300 years.

</3 

 liddi:

Jing's mother was already ill when she arranged Jing and Yi Ying's betrothal, and Hou's marriage to the maid Lan Mu which Hou agreed to despite the blatantly unfair arrangement, because he still desperately craved her love and approval. At the time, Jing and Hou's relationship were still very close. Still, he would have felt keenly the unfairness of the treatment

This is aligned with how I was thinking. ^^

 liddi:

so my take is that when he snuck off to Gao Xin to catch a glimpse of his brother's fiancée at the Fifth Month Festival, it was not just out of curiosity, but also an unconscious comparison of the two wives chosen for the two brothers.

We can see glimpses of it from what he told Jing when he came back when he praised Yi Ying to Jing, which hints of envy:

By then Mother was already ill and I did not want her to worry about my marriage any longer, so I immediately agreed. After the engagement, I had to take care of Mother and handle clan affairs, so I was extremely busy and couldn’t spare much thought on the matter. However, Eldest Brother secretly sneaked away to see Fangfeng Yi Ying. When he came back, he grinned and said to me, ‘Congratulations, she is indeed a great beauty, intelligent and witty.’ 

-- Vol 1 Ch14

Interesting. It sounds like you interpret TSH going off to see FFYY as something he did entirely of his own volition (out of curiosity and a subconscious desire to compare the wife-to-be that TSJ's mother chose for TSJ with the wife she chose for TSH) without TSJ having any input or perhaps any prior knowledge that he was going to go? Is that right?

I thought that since TSH reported his thoughts to TSJ when he returned, TSJ probably knew that TSH was going to go before he left and didn't object or maybe he even casually mentioned the possibility of TSH going in his place (since TSH could get away while TSJ was too busy to go himself). I agree that TSH probably had his own curiosity that he wanted to satisfy, but I felt like he also went (either genuinely or ostensibly) with the intention of doing TSJ a favour by going to see what kind of person TSJ's fiancee was. And that was why he reported his thoughts to TSJ as soon as he returned to Qing Qiu. 

TSJ says that he didn't spare much thought about FFYY at that point and I think that's probably mostly true, but I'm also aware that he's speaking to XY in this scene and trying to convince her how much he isn't (and has never been) interested in FFYY. So it would make sense for him to phrase things in a way that made it seem to XY like TSH going to Gao Xing to see FFYY was something that TSH did entirely of his own accord, even if the reality was that TSJ was at least a little bit curious about his fiancee and asked TSH to go or did something else that contributed to TSH going.

Also, Koala's translation just said that TSH "went off" instead of "secretly sneaked away" to see FFYY. Looking into the Mandarin text, it looks like "悄悄溜去" could also be translated as "quietly slipped away" rather than "secretly sneaked away"? My impression was that this line isn't so much an indication that TSJ didn't know that TSH was going to go on this trip (i.e., that TSH kept it a secret from him) as much as it indicates that while TSJ was focused on his mother and the family business, the fact that TSJ's mother rejected TSH and made sure that control over the family business was kept out of TSH's hands, TSH had the ability to quietly leave and go to Gao Xing without anyone else (e.g., TSJ's mother, their grandmother, or other members of the clan) really noticing or caring that he had gone. 

 liddi:

Still, it is noteworthy that it would be more than 4 years before they met again, during which time we have no indication that he tried to see her again. I can understand that the devastating revelation of his birth and the hatred that twisted his psyche would have also relegated any budding romantic feelings to a place of insignificance. Until the preparation of Jing's wedding, which would have reminded him of her again. The real question is what he was reminded of.

Another telling point is the timing of Jing's incarceration, before the wedding could take place. Could it be due to the fact that he could not bear the thought of Jing marrying the woman he had some romantic feelings for, even though he himself was already married by then? While it is a possibility, I still believe that Jing's imminent appointment as clan leader remained the primary reason for his actions. 

Seems like our interpretations are pretty similar here. 

I agree that if TSH did have some romantic feelings for FFYY after their first meeting, they were sidelined for four years after TSH found out about his birth secret and was consumed by that revelation. 

I also agree that even if TSH having some romantic feelings for FFYY played some role in motivating TSH to kidnap TSJ when he did (so that the wedding could not take place), it would only account for a portion of his motivation, while preventing their grandmother from announcing TSJ as the next clan leader was probably his main priority. Preventing TSJ from having the opportunity to marry a woman with world-famous archery skills who could act as his ally and protector (and potentially give him an heir) and preventing TSJ from getting to benefit, once again, from his mother's unfair treatment of the brothers might also have been contributing factors. 

 liddi:

Later, he surely could not be unaware of her momentous flight to Qing Qiu in her wedding finery. Yet he continued to stay away until the Lantern Festival (15th day of the first month), before he introduced himself to her once more in that dramatic way. At that point in time, Jing's fate was in his hands, and he had given himself fully over to his hatred. As such, I am not certain that when he started his affair with Yi Ying, it was driven out of genuine feelings for her, and not a twisted sense of dominance over Jing. Still, surprisingly they started a sexual relationship only in the 4th year, after Jing had been discarded and left for dead. Why not before? If the affair was meant to be humiliate Jing, why abstain from physical intimacy before then? Was it because he fully expected Jing not to survive, and Yi Ying was finally free to be his woman in all but name? Or with Jing's certain death, his hatred was assuaged, and he could allow himself to act on his feelings for her? I can't really answer with certainty.

I had assumed that TSH was a bit busy torturing TSJ during that period. ^^"

I'm glad you mentioned that he timed his return to coincide with the lantern festival. I hadn't realized he did that since Koala's translation only indicated that TSH walked to FFYY "under the lit lanterns" and didn't indicate that it was during the Lantern Festival. I see that the original Mandarin text was much clearer about the connection: he returned on the day of the Lantern Festival to a house that was filled with lanterns and he was even holding a lantern himself. 

I don't view those two potential motives (having genuine feelings for FFYY and wanting to hurt TSJ because of how much TSH hated him at that point) as necessarily being mutually exclusive. I definitely think that hurting TSJ was either his entire reason or at least a very significant part of his reason for starting the affair with FFYY that first year in Qing Qiu. But I also think it's no coincidence that he didn't sleep with FFYY until after he thought TSJ was dead. That feels like an intentional hint from Tong Hua that TSH's motives weren't only tied to TSJ. And if he did, at some point, have real romantic feelings for FFYY, that would contribute towards making TSH a more layered, complex, and tragic character - Tong Hua's speciality!

 liddi:

Still, going forward, he had no qualms in having Yi Ying entrap and marry Jing, and he certainly continued to seduce other women in the meantime. Was it because he had tired of her by then? Or he never truly loved her - and whatever romantic feelings he might have harboured for her paled in comparison with his ambitions and grudges, and at the end of the day, she was relegated to merely another of Jing's possessions that he was determined to snatch away. Certainly his actions down the road affirms that she (and even young Tian) meant little to him and was dispensable when push comes to shove. 

The fact that TSH had no qualms about having FFYY entrap and marry TSJ... I feel like that isn't necessarily a clear indication of whether he did or didn't have feelings for FFYY. On the one hand, it shows that he was willing to use her to further his own interests even if it meant that she would marry and potentially even sleep with the person he hated the most. But it also showed that he clearly trusted FFYY to not betray him. And if TSH did have some romantic feelings for FFYY, I feel like her willingness to carry out a plan like that that was designed to benefit TSH in the long run might even strengthen those feelings for her? FFYY seemed to genuinely have feelings for TSH, and she didn't seem to have qualms about using herself to trap TSJ in marriage. And that plan didn't seem to make FFYY question whether TSH's feelings for her were genuine. 

It's ironic that what TSH desperately wanted and needed was someone who would be entirely on his side, who thought he was better than TSJ and would always choose him over TSJ, and he had that with FFYY... up until the point where he squandered that relationship through his own actions. 

It seems like there could have been a different version of the story where TSH, TSJ, FFYY and XY could have worked together to get past the Grand Madame for a mutually beneficial outcome. If they had been able to come to an agreement together instead of having FFYY force TSJ into marriage, then TSJ could have done something (or pretended to do something) that would be a good enough excuse for him to resign as clan leader and being FFYY's husband, so the engagement could be broken without shaming FFYY. Or maybe TSJ could even fake his own death. Either way, that would have allowed TSH to divorce his own wife and set her free, marry FFYY, and become clan leader. TSJ and FFYY would each get everything they wanted. And TSJ would be free to fulfill his promise (belatedly) to XY. If the price of the exchange would be that TSH agreed to support CX and then XY chose to leave her title behind so she could be with YSQ once CX gained the throne, then it could have been a win-win all around, more or less. It wouldn't have been perfect (at the very least, it would have left some hard feelings between these characters not fully resolved), but it could have saved quite a bit of heartache and pain and would mean that there wouldn't be a parentless Tushan Tian left in Qing Qiu in the end. 

I agree that, after TSJ returned, TSH was clearly willing to attempt to seduce other women in further attempts to hurt TSJ and that he didn't seem to care all that much about FFYY's happiness by that point. And when his own neck was at risk, he was clearly very willing to throw her under the bus to save his own neck. And to use her and Tian to get to TSJ. So his own interests, including his ambitions and his grudge against TSJ, were definitely more important to him than any feelings he might have had for FFYY. 

 blabla100:

In a way, this couple's dynamics acts as an opposite parallel to XY and XL. TH first met FFYY by saving her, XL and XY first met by being at odds. TH betrays FFYY and she ends up killing him with the bow and arrow he designed for her versus how XY tries to harm XL with the bow and archery skill he thought her, but couldn't do it.  FFYY told TH that regardless of him loving her or not, he did make a promise to her to be like mandarine ducks and live and die togheter.  XY and XL never made any promise of this sort to each other, but their lovers bugs acted the same as one.  Selfish love versus selfless love basically. 

Interesting observation!

 blabla100:

În my head there's a lot of parallels between these 2 couples's line of events, but I can't really make a good argumentation as to why I feel they are related. Just the feeling I have.

I thought you articulated it well and gave lots of good examples. Both couples are tragic, but for opposite reasons. 

 blabla100:

Also, I keep pushing with Once promise, I am thinking that maybe there's any hint in it as to whom the lady who gave XY's the walnuts is and her background.

Post here if you find anything. ^^

Finally!!!  UNDER THE SKIN 2 is going to start on December 10!!  New trailer:

https://weibo.com/7571082223/5108221616326842

With English subs provided by the lovely AwkwarDerp:

https://x.com/syublush/status/1864571289282736389?s=46

Damn, this parallel https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzI7cUtp_ti/?igsh=ODU2MzdhMXBicHY5

For starters, my apologies for the long silence... real life caught up with a vengeance and will probably stay that way again for the next few weeks. As such, I have not made any inroads with Love Like an Eastern Fantasy and am still stuck at Ep10 - gah! That being said, I marathoned the first 4 episodes of Under the Skin S2 and am thrilled with how well it delivered. Not sure if I will fall off the bandwagon thanks to foreseeable real life demands in the coming weeks but fingers crossed I get to finish it amid everything that is happening.

 AH :

It sounds like you interpret TSH going off to see FFYY as something he did entirely of his own volition (out of curiosity and a subconscious desire to compare the wife-to-be that TSJ's mother chose for TSJ with the wife she chose for TSH) without TSJ having any input or perhaps any prior knowledge that he was going to go?

No, that was not what I meant.  My coining "secretly sneaked away" was not meant to imply that there was anything furtive about his actions or motivations, simply that it was deliberately not widely made known. Perhaps your translation "quietly slipped away" is a better alternative. I don't think that Jing necessarily knew or was unaware of Hou's excursion to Gao Xin prior to it happening, but I do believe that there was nothing malicious about that trip at the time. Actually, the way Jing worded it was ambiguous enough so that to the listener, it could have taken to mean it was with or without his knowledge or consent. In any case, Hou made no secret to Jing of having seen Yi Ying, and even shared his impressions of her, so it was clear at that point in time that he was confident his actions would not have been adversely received by Jing, even if it had been done behind his back.

 AH :

it indicates that while TSJ was focused on his mother and the family business, the fact that TSJ's mother rejected TSH and made sure that control over the family business was kept out of TSH's hands, TSH had the ability to quietly leave and go to Gao Xing without anyone else (e.g., TSJ's mother, their grandmother, or other members of the clan) really noticing or caring that he had gone. 

Interesting. I never saw that sentence that way. I just took it to mean that he took care not to make his absence widely known. However, the implications that he was able to do it at such a time when Jing's mother was ill makes your conjecture that it was a deliberate act on her part to diminish Hou's role in the family business a compelling one. And give credence to his doubled determination to take away everything that Jing was given on a platter later, when he found out the truth about his birth.

 AH :

Preventing TSJ from having the opportunity to marry a woman with world-famous archery skills who could act as his ally and protector (and potentially give him an heir) and preventing TSJ from getting to benefit, once again, from his mother's unfair treatment of the brothers might also have been contributing factors.

That is an interesting point. The Fangfeng clan was not top-ranked in the hierarchy of the clans in the Great Wilderness, but they are renowned for their archery skills. At that time, Jing's spiritual powers were formidable too but it certainly did not hurt to have a wife who was highly skilled and spiritually powerful as well. Certainly, incarcerating Jing before the wedding meant preventing him from being able to benefit from such a union, including the backing of their clan. As such, I would think that Yi Ying's tempestuous flight to Qing Qiu in her wedding finery, and her declaration that she considered herself his wife in all but name must have come as a surprise to Hou. But I also believe he cannot fail to be deeply moved and touched by that knowledge, realising that her actions were in truth, out of love for him.

With this in mind, for me, this at least helps to explain why he did not engage with physical intimacy with her during the years that he imprisoned Jing. Her love affirmed him and I think he at least abstained until she was "free" to be with him, with Jing left for dead. During those years, he had already proven his worth to the elders in managing the family business, and he had the wholehearted love of a woman who accepted him unconditionally. Jing's return however, put everything he had into jeopardy once more, and his hatred and insecurities were greater than any love he had for her, hence his subsequent actions where he had no compunction in using her and seducing other women, as long as it enabled him to rob them from his brother in his mind.

 AH :

It's ironic that what TSH desperately wanted and needed was someone who would be entirely on his side, who thought he was better than TSJ and would always choose him over TSJ, and he had that with FFYY... up until the point where he squandered that relationship through his own actions.

Exactly. He had her blind, unconditional love but ultimately he was the one who shattered it with his bare hands through his callous betrayal.

 blabla100:

In a way, this couple's dynamics acts as an opposite parallel to XY and XL.

 blabla100:

When TH turned his back on FFYY, she was described as having no more light în her eyes, just a room  full of endless darkness which îs very similar to how the sky was described when XL made XY turn her back on him. În my head there's a lot of parallels between these 2 couples's line of events,

Fascinating observations - thank you very much for sharing! Until you mentioned it, I had forgotten how that scene was described. In both instances, their eyes lost their light, except hers was bereft of hope from betrayal, while his was due to unending loneliness from intentionally cutting the one he loved from his life:

When the elders asked her “Is what Hou said true?”, she still said nothing. But her once-bright eyes gradually became empty like a room that had lost its light, with nothing but darkness.

-- Vol 3 Ch1  (Chapter 34)

Dark clouds obscured the full moon and what was reflected in Xiang Liu’s eyes was—a sky devoid of stars, boundless darkness, unending loneliness.

-- Vol 3 Ch13  (Chapter 46)

 blabla100:

I also believe Jing tried to give both of these couples a chance, to XY and XL when he went to look for XL to break XY's wedding to Feng Long and to FFYY and TH when he tried to face them with the affair before the word could spread to everyone else. Neither TH or XL took the chance though. 

Hmm. The drama had Jing articulate that it was his intention to allow Xiao Yao to choose once more after he manipulatively took away that choice with the 15-year promise. I am not as certain that was the impression I gained from the novel. 

Jing could not answer. Why? Perhaps it was Xiao Yao looking at a loss as she stood on the streets of Qing Qiu, and he did not want her to be like that for the rest of her life. Perhaps it was because he loved her too deeply and was unable to let go and allow her to marry another man. Perhaps it was because there was hope deep inside his heart that refused to give up.

-- Vol 2 Ch16  (Chapter 33)

I felt that he asked Xiang Liu because only Xiang Liu would dare defy Cang Xuan and the powerful Four Noble Clans by getting Xiao Yao to cancel her wedding. I am not as certain he meant for Xiang Liu to be with her - he admitted to himself that the thought of her marrying another man was unbearable to him. Which makes me wonder - even if Xiao Yao did not marry Feng Long but was finally marrying Xiang Liu, would he not have tried to stop that wedding too?

 blabla100:

Also, I keep pushing with Once promise, I am thinking that maybe there's any hint in it as to whom the lady who gave XY's the walnuts is and her background.

Did you finish Once Promised? If so, did you see any sign of the Bai Li woman who gave Xiao Yao the walnut? I don't think she was mentioned there, but I might be wrong.

Are you watching Blossom? I really recommend this drama. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDRIm2EoL_Z/?igsh=OGJpb3ZkMzFqNzBz

 AH :

FFYY was smart and beautiful, but I imagine there were several young female deities amongst the top clans that fit that description and, as you mentioned, the Fangfeng family was not a top clan.

Chapter 23, Jing's grandmother said that FF clain depended on Tushan clan. Therefore, they had taught and trained FFYY well. Moreover she was also smart and competent. So, her position and qualifications match well with the position of Tushan clan leader's wife. A partner who came from one of the big Four clans might be less orbey and loyal than someone who came from a less important family.

The Tushan family had well interconnected with other bigh family in the Central Plain. Jing's grandfather from mother side was the ex-leader of Shen Clan (the biggest noble clan behind the  Four Clans) and Jing's mother's mother came from Chisui Clan.