Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

 Kokuto:

Do you have an example of them downplaying their relationship in the drama?

Look at the way she cried for Jing and compare it with the way she cried when XL died--actually in the novel it felt like it was her breaking point, also as a reader, I also felt like I was getting a closure but it never happened in the drama. Plus she explicitly calls him a friend in the drama, if I remember correctly that never happened in the novel and all that chopping of the assassination attempt of xy etc. Etc, 

Recently I was reading on the myth surrounding the characters, like Xiangliu, Gonggong, Yu the Great and the 9 Tail fox. Xiangliu the 9 headed snake, is also called xiangyao. The similarity of their names is interesting. It's as if XY character was written to be the shadow or equivalent to XL. In all myths, XL always work for Gonggong and die in the hands of Yu the Great who tempered the great flood and was the first ruler who united the lands. So Yu the Great is CX, and CX vs XL has to follow the myths' endings no matter what. 

But then, when I read up on 9 Tail fox.. it is said that they are mostly shape-shifters and most commonly appearing as females. Trusted, faithful, companions.. symbolizing peace, longevity, wisdom. And the fox spirit is also commonly known as 'huli-jing' in Chinese..  a term usually used to describe women who seduces married men, used even til today. Now we know Jing is a man.. but I can't help thinking the similarity of 'huli-jing' to Jing.. why would TH put such similar naming conventions for the characters if they don't mean anything, right? It is as if the foreshadowing of Jing's character is in the name.. and his companionship to XY while long-term in the ending to LYF, is nothing more than sisterly bonds (both female companions).

So Xiaoyao also means Xiangliu, both are one and the same, which also means husband and wife relationship..  while Jing is Xiaoyao's same sex long term companion, and CX is the one who killed Xiangliu, indirectly killing a part of Xiaoyao.. which is why CX is doomed to lost Xiaoyao forever.. 

 Blackberrypie_09:

In all myths, XL always work for Gonggong and die in the hands of Yu the Great who tempered the great flood and was the first ruler who united the lands. So Yu the Great is CX, and CX vs XL has to follow the myths' endings no matter what. 

I'm not too familiar with Classic of Mountains and Seas (山海经), but the original name for Cang Xuan (玱玹) was Zhuan Xu (颛顼 ), who is a different character from Yu the Great (大禹), who I'm guessing corresponds to Yu Jiang (禺疆) in LYF. Yu Jiang was one of the generals who defeated Xiang Liu in the end.

It's interesting to note that in Classic of Mountains and Seas, Xiang Liu survived Zhuan Xu's reign, which could be a hint that Xiang Liu gets resurrected after his perceived death in the last battle. After all, in LYF, you have to destroy a demon's core and scatter their consciousness in order to truly kill them. The novel doesn't mention what happened to Xiang Liu's demon core.

 Blackberrypie_09:

But then, when I read up on 9 Tail fox.. it is said that they are mostly shape-shifters and most commonly appearing as females. Trusted, faithful, companions.. symbolizing peace, longevity, wisdom. And the fox spirit is also commonly known as 'huli-jing' in Chinese..  a term usually used to describe women who seduces married men, used even til today. Now we know Jing is a man.. but I can't help thinking the similarity of 'huli-jing' to Jing.. why would TH put such similar naming conventions for the characters if they don't mean anything, right? It is as if the foreshadowing of Jing's character is in the name.. and his companionship to XY while long-term in the ending to LYF, is nothing more than sisterly bonds (both female companions).

Interesting theory. It's possible that Jing's name (璟 - jǐng) was inspired by the fox spirit (狐狸精 - húlíjīng), but note that the pronunciations are different. But I totally agree with you that YaoJing's relationship is a same-sex platonic relationship. Here's an excerpt from the last scene of the leaked script:

阿念:(顺着跄玹的目光看向市井)姐姐也许是那卖花的娘子，也许是那布店打瞌睡的老板 (男)，也许是那给孩子买甜浆的妇人......(随着镜头扫过，每个人都过得平凡认真、生机勃
勃)只要看看他们，就知道不管姐姐如今身在何方，都一定过得很好。
A Nian: (following Cang Xuan's gaze to the market) Sister may be the flower seller, the dozing boss (male) of the cloth shop, or the woman who buys sweet soup for the child... (as the camera sweeps, everyone lives an ordinary, serious and lively life) Just look at them, and you will know that no matter where sister is now, she must be living a good life.

The flower seller corresponds to Xiao Yao being with Cang Xuan (he gave her the Ruomu flower), the dozing boss (male) of the cloth shop corresponds to Xiao Yao being with Jing (Jing is a merchant; Jing is boring, so that is why the person is dozing; the word boss implies that Xiao Yao is Jing's boss and he's her servant), and the woman who buys sweet soup for the child corresponds to Xiao Yao being with Xiang Liu (Xiang Liu gave her the big-bellied laughing doll, which is a child's toy).

The novel has a similar excerpt:

此时正是轩辕城内最热闹的时刻，大街上人来人往，车水马龙，各种叫卖声不绝于耳。小夭有可能是那当垆卖酒的小娘子，有可能是在药堂内打瞌睡的医师，有可能是那摇着扇子追孩子的妇人……
It was the busiest time in Xuan Yuan City. The streets were bustling with people and cars, and all kinds of hawking sounds could be heard. Xiao Yao could be the young lady selling wine, the doctor dozing off in the pharmacy, or the woman chasing the child with a fan...

-- Vol 3 Ch 18 (Chapter 51)

Here, the young lady selling wine corresponds to Xiao Yao being with Cang Xuan (Xuan was a wine merchant), the dozing doctor corresponds to Xiao Yao being with Jing (Tian Er/Chuan Zi is YaoLiu's shadow, Tian Er is a doctor), the woman chasing the child corresponds to Xiao Yao being with Xiang Liu (big-bellied laughing doll).

 Blackberrypie_09:

Xiangliu the 9 headed snake, is also called xiangyao. The similarity of their names is interesting. It's as if XY character was written to be the shadow or equivalent to XL.

 Blackberrypie_09:

So Xiaoyao also means Xiangliu, both are one and the same, which also means husband and wife relationship.. 

I previously did a post on character names and how they hint at shadow character relationships:

https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110123-xl-and-xy-story-and-romance-warning-spoilers?pid=3023617&page=557#p3023617

I believe A Nian is actually Xiang Liu's primary shadow character:

https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110123-xl-and-xy-story-and-romance-warning-spoilers?pid=3043773&page=584#p3043773

The reasons A Nian has for loving Cang Xuan reveal why Xiang Liu loves Xiao Yao. A Nian reining in her temper so she wouldn't lose Cang Xuan reflects how Xiang Liu knew he had to rein in his temper and treat Xiao Yao better (which he did as FFB), A Nian accepting the other women in Cang Xuan's life reflects how Xiang Liu accepted the other men in Xiao Yao's life. A Nian telling Xiao Liu that he couldn't like her reveals Xiang Liu also had the same perspective on not allowing Xiao Yao to like him. A Nian's insights on what married life with Feng Long would be like for Xiao Yao reveals that Xiang Liu knew that Xiao Yao would not be happy in the marriage, which was his primary reason for stopping the YaoLong wedding. A Nian attempting to assassinate Feng Long, but not Cang Xuan hints that Xiang Liu's true assassination target was also Feng Long. A Nian telling Xiao Yao that they took the third path (were good sisters to each other) reveals that Xiang Liu wanted to tell Xiao Yao that she was a good lover to him and he didn't resent her for the seemingly reckless things she did.

It's definitely possible that Xiao Yao was also meant to be Xiang Liu's shadow since they are soulmates and have a lot in common. Also, Xiao Yao's formal name,  Jiu Yao (玖瑶) sounds similar to Xiang Liu's nickname, nine-headed demon - Jiu Tou Yao (九头妖).

That said, conventionally, it's a minor character who is designed to be a main character's shadow, but Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao are both main characters. Also, to me, both these characters are so opaquely written that I need other shadow characters to reveal what these characters are thinking.

It would be interesting to hear in what aspects you believe Xiao Yao is Xiang Liu's shadow. What does Xiao Yao's perspective reveal about  Xiang Liu's intentions and motivations, or how do things that happen to Xiao Yao foreshadow things that happen to Xiang Liu?

 liddi:

It is evident to me now that my communication skills are clearly lacking as I don't seem to be doing a good job expressing what I was really trying to say! LOL

Lol, no it's probably more just me getting way too focused on the implications of really specific words / details. Hazard of my job. ^^"

 liddi:

Not so much that he deliberately set up a formation to do so, but because he did not think that the Xuan Yuan army, led by deities, would deign to respect him in death when he was a hated and despised demon, their greatest bane who singlehandedly killed so many of their men. And that was his hidden card, to deliver one final blow on his enemies using the very properties of his own body, even in death. That realisation made me tear up, that he would think so little of himself in the eyes of his enemies, for this to be a last resort. 

 liddi:

I don't see anything in the novel that indicated that it was a formation Xiang Liu set up. Rather, the reveal of his true form after his death (a nine-headed demon), the attempted desecration of his body, and Xiao Yao's acceptance knowing only Xiang Liu could have done something like this - everything pointed to a natural progression of events that could have, should have happened due to Xiang Liu's extremely toxic blood, had Ru Shou chosen to let his men act on their hatred and have their way.

I think the part I'm struggling with is there seems to be a logical leap between two points (B and C) here, that I can't follow. I totally get A, and B also seems probable, but I can't understand how people are getting from B to C. 

A is the fact that XL was aware that his blood was highly poisonous.

B is the idea that XL would have known and considered the fact that his highly poisonous blood would wipe out any enemies that approached his body (after his death) with the intent of desecrating it. 

C is the idea that, based on that information, we can somehow infer that XL must have felt that his enemies definitely would disrespect and desecrate his body (and would therefore also definitely be taken down by his poisonous blood). 

I feel like there must be something I'm missing that explains how other people are getting from B to C. 

 liddi:

Incidentally, I am trying to recall but I don't remember the novel ever saying whether his blood was inherently poisonous to begin with, or that it was a result of years of cultivation with poisons which made it what it was. I know that he transformed the healing technique Hong Jiang taught him and into developing his own snow-related fighting style, but I don't recall anything about the poisons.

For a few reasons, I thought that XL's blood probably started out as highly poisonous (but maybe not quite as poisonous as it was by the end of his life) and he probably was always resistant to poison, but over time he consumed more poison to cultivate his power and that, in turn, might possibly have made his blood even more poisonous. 

First, Xiang Liu / Xiang Yao in the Classic of Mountains and Seas had blood that was inherently extremely toxic. So it would make sense if Tong Hua chose to include a similar characterstic for her version of the character, with XL having inherently poisonous blood. 

Second, XL was completely unaffected by WXL's poison in their first meeting, even though her poison was extremely powerful. XL noted that Maoqiu had eaten hundreds of thousands of poisonous snakes and Xuan Yuan's court physicians had also tried to poison him, but nothing had taken him down before. And yet WXL's poison was able to take Maoqiu down on her first attempt. But the same poison had no effect on XL whatsoever. If XL was already so unaffected by extremely strong poisons at that point, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to think that his blood was probably also extremely poisonous at that point. 

Presumably he had already begun regularly taking poison by that point to cultivate. We know that there had been many attempts to assassinate members of the remnant army by that point and XL was their #1 target. So perhaps if some of those assassins used poison then XL would have discovered that he was able to use the consumption of such poisons to cultivate his power?

Third, the only thing XL asked WXL to do was make poisons for him, which he only ever consumed himself. That makes me think that he probably was already intentionally consuming poison to cultivate his power (and possibly also to maintain or increase his poison resistance and/or to increase the degree of how poisonous his blood was) at that point. 

Fourth, using her knowledge of poison and medicine, WXL quickly caught on and speculated that, due to XL's physical characteristics, he was able to use poison to cultivate his power. To me, that seems to suggest that WXL thought that there was something unique about XL's physical characterstics (like he inherently had poisonous blood and was impervious to the effects of poison) that allowed him to cultivate using a method that most people could not use. 

Fifth, as far as I can recall, XL's blood being poisonous is mentioned twice before his death. First in chapter 22, when it was noted that after XL transferred his blood to XY he then had to suck the poison out of her because his blood was poisonous (and it was also mentioned that he probably had poison within him beyond just the poison in his blood). Second, in chapter 46, when XL used his blood on the arrow that killed Feng Long. XY noted that if she had the ability to create an antidote that would be affective against the poison in XL's blood, then she would have been able to successfully poison XL long ago. Which seems to suggest to me that XY felt that XL's poisonous blood and her inability to successfully poison him (due to his resistance to poisons) were inherently linked. As if she wasn't able to poison him because his blood was already more poisonous than any of the poisons she tried to use on him. 

 liddi:

If his blood was naturally toxic, then this was simply a part of who he was as a nine-headed sea demon, which he then used in his favour against his enemies. However, if it was due to cultivation with poisons, it might lend some credence to the theory that he did so in anticipation of a day when they faced overwhelming odds against the Xuan Yuan army, where he would be able to take down even more enemies with him even in death. What do you think?

Yes, I have seen some fans speculate that XL consumed poisons specifically because he always planned to use his poisonous blood to take down his enemies after his death. 

It seems, to me, like there are three possibilities. 

One - XL's blood was not inherently poisonous and he needed to consume poison in order to make it poisonous. 

Two - XL's blood was inherently poisonous, but consuming poisons made it even more poisonous / lethal.

Three - XL's blood was always inherently extremely poisonous and consuming more poisons didn't impact how poisonous his own blood was, because his own blood was already more poisonous than any other poison.

If three is the case, then XL definitely didn't consume poisons for the purpose of making his blood more poisonous in order to take down more of his enemies after his death. 

If one or two is the case, then it seems possible to me (but not definite) that XL would have thought about how his blood might be used as a weapon after his death and maybe one of his reasons for consuming poison was to make his blood more poisonous for that purpose. But if that were the case, I feel like it wouldn't have been one of his *main* rasons for consuming poison. 

My impression was that, through WXL's speculation, we are supposed to understand that XL used poisons to cultivate (i.e., to increase his power) and that was always his main reason for consuming poison over the years (whether it also effected how poisonous his blood was or not). 

It seems possible that he might have also consumed poison to maintain or increase his ability to resist poison and/or to make his blood even more poisonous so when he used it as a weapon (e.g., as he did against Feng Long) it would be all the more lethal. If that was the case, those would be extra reasons for him to consume poison. 

And of course there's the added factor that when WXL/XY is the one making the poison for him, consuming it has an additional sentimental value. 

If consuming poisons did make his blood even more poisonous than it already inherently was (or if his blood was not inherently poisonous and he had to consume poison in order to make his blood poisonous), then perhaps XL would have considered how making his blood more poisonous might help him use his blood to take down his enemies even after his death and that might have been an additional reason for him to consume more poison. But , if that were the case, it seems like it would be pretty low on his list of reasons for consuming more poison compared to the other reasons above. 

 Blackberrypie_09:

Recently I was reading on the myth surrounding the characters, like Xiangliu, Gonggong, Yu the Great and the 9 Tail fox. Xiangliu the 9 headed snake, is also called xiangyao. The similarity of their names is interesting. It's as if XY character was written to be the shadow or equivalent to XL. In all myths, XL always work for Gonggong and die in the hands of Yu the Great who tempered the great flood and was the first ruler who united the lands. So Yu the Great is CX, and CX vs XL has to follow the myths' endings no matter what.

Maybe there's some conflation, because CX is a 'historical' figure in his own right.

 Blackberrypie_09:

But then, when I read up on 9 Tail fox.. it is said that they are mostly shape-shifters and most commonly appearing as females. Trusted, faithful, companions.. symbolizing peace, longevity, wisdom. And the fox spirit is also commonly known as 'huli-jing' in Chinese.. a term usually used to describe women who seduces married men, used even til today. Now we know Jing is a man.. but I can't help thinking the similarity of 'huli-jing' to Jing.. why would TH put such similar naming conventions for the characters if they don't mean anything, right? It is as if the foreshadowing of Jing's character is in the name.. and his companionship to XY while long-term in the ending to LYF, is nothing more than sisterly bonds (both female companions).

I found a link on twitter talking about the mythology of Lost You Forever, and it explains that there are two takes on the 9 tailed fox in Classic of Mountains and Seas, one auspicious, the other human-eating cry babies.  hmmmmmm   They also say that the auspicious myth was demonized later.

I often ask why would Tong Hua write Jing in such a fashion... not that it seems to matter, as so many women just ignore and whitewash the human eating cry baby aspect of Jing.

There's also been many people that have pointed out that Jing is also female coded, so him being a female companion isn't far fetched.  Sisterly ... well the genders are so mixed up in this novel.  lol

 Janex:

According to legends, XL is inherently poisonous- I also think that TH used poison symbolically to show their deep relationship - talk about her culinary skill, and his being able to appreciate it shows that. But it could also mean that this love is like poison to XL; Also using his body as a final weapon is something he will do as a military strategist.

Yes, poison is a metaphor for love.

 plor20:

OMGAD... everyone was still in this thread this whole time!

 (ಥ﹏ಥ) hahahahahaha....I  didn't get notifications at all.  I thought everyone abandoned ship.  hahahahahahaha...okay O have alot to catch-up. 

Are your notifications still messed up?  I'm not getting all of them, but I'm getting enough to know posts are being made.