For Chang Yi, he could have escaped. Staying to die after that point didn't do anything to help Xuan Yuan's cause. But he still chose to stay in order to die with his comrades. To not abandon them.AH :
Okay, here's a more concise version of why I found XL's situation to be different. It is common for generals to not leave the battlefield during a losing battle (for example, XY's Fourth Uncle). The reasoning doesn't have to include love of fellow soldiers. It could be as simple as principle or customary practice for a given general or army. Generals can die on the battlefield during a winning battle (for example, Chi You) (although the larger reason that Chi You died was because of his love for the opposing princess, A'Heng). It isn't common for generals to go to their certain deaths only because of love of fellow soldiers (for example, XL). A normal response would have been to disband and go home. Gong Gong's army's response is pathetic and sad. I keep thinking that it's closer to a cult than normal, although this thought isn't fully formed yet. I see little-to-no honor in it, unlike Fourth Uncle's and Chi You's situations.
For XL, it wasn't the cause that was important. It was the people. His father and his comrades.
So, would you say that XL loved Gong Gong and his fellow soldiers more than XY?
So, would you say that XL loved Gong Gong and his fellow soldiers more than XYMTH123:
For Gong Gong, it is filialness as well as gratitude. For his follow soldiers and Gong Gong, it is comradeship, responsibility. As he told Xiao Yao, he had conscience for the rebel army although he thought they were pitiful fools, doing pitiful work. The meaning of the war did not matter to him. But the comradeship, all the soldiers (alive or deceased) were carved in his mind. It is not that he loved GG and the fellow soldiers more than XY but those values/factors were more important than individual love.
His love for XY is selfless and pure. One of his characteristics that XY also shared is they enjoy good, beautiful things but it was not needed for them to possess those things. That may explain his action is to make the best for XY regardless of being without her
In Wuxia stories and by extension also Xianxia it is quite a normal thing for adult people who meets and feels special connection with each other to take their relationship further. If they are close in age they usually make a small ceremony with blood and oath to be sworn brothers or if the age gap is pretty big then as adopted son-father or master-apprentice and this relationship bond is as strong or even sometimes stronger than real blood ties. What it entailed can be different from case to case I think, but normally they take care and treat the family of the other as their own family. For official things like inheritance or inheriting title/job etc. between adopted son and father, I think it depends on if the father already has an heir/other children or not and how official the adoption is made to public.luv2bafangurl:
Thanks! That's very helpful.
H19279:
For Gong Gong, it is filialness as well as gratitude. For his follow soldiers and Gong Gong, it is comradeship, responsibility. As he told Xiao Yao, he had conscience for the rebel army although he thought they were pitiful fools, doing pitiful work. The meaning of the war did not matter to him. But the comradeship, all the soldiers (alive or deceased) were carved in his mind. It is not that he loved GG and the fellow soldiers more than XY but those values/factors were more important than individual love.
His love for XY is selfless and pure. One of his characteristics that XY also shared is they enjoy good, beautiful things but it was not needed for them to possess those things. That may explain his action is to make the best for XY regardless of being without her
I like your take. Thanks!
yes I think it was mentioned somewhere that Shen Nong had three great generals at that time, Chi You, Gong Gong and another one (i forget his name) but the internal strife between them prevent Shen Nong to really unite against XiYan, otherwise the outcome of the war might be a different one
There were 4 generals: Zhu Rong, Gong Gong, Houtu who all came from noble families and Chi You who was the only disciple of The (great) Flame Emperor but with low class origin. Moreover, the last king of Shen nong, Yuwang, was weak, indecisive and he could not control all the generals. When Yuwang was killed by Huangdi, no one could take sole control. Houtu later surrended to Huangdi. Zhu Rong who was Fenglong's grand father felt ashamed by Yuwang's death and conducted a kind of suicide battle agaist XuanYuan. In that battle CX's father died, his mother was rescued by Ah Heng. Gong gong tried to unify the major noble families in Shennong but he was mistaken as trying to get the thrown. He later made a blood oath to be loyal to Shen Nong forever (I don't remember exactly). But that explains why he kept fighting XuanYuan and never surrended.
It is not that he loved GG and the fellow soldiers more than XY but those values/factors were more important than individual love.
This is how I understand XL's motivation to make the decisions he did. He put the greater good of the Chenrong remnant army and the collective above his own individual desires and possible happiness.
It is not that he loved GG and the fellow soldiers more than XY but those values/factors were more important than individual love.
This is how I understand XL's motivation to make the decisions he did. He put the greater good of the Chenrong remnant army and the collective above his own individual desires and possible happiness.atmospheres:
It was also the fact his two choices were in direct conflict with each other. It wasn't like, let me give up one for the other. It was choosing either was going to cause serious harm to the other. He was in an impossible situation, so he made the best he could of it, and even so, he couldn't protect either entirely.
The other thing, is that it wasn't about HIS choice. It was always about XY's choice. XY wouldn't admit or confess because of fear, but XL didn't confess because he didn't want to force XY to make a hurtful choice, he didn't want to obligate her affections.
I don't know if it stems from Confucianism or another tradition of thought, but often when the Chinese talk about love or about making a love confession, inevitably the discourse turns towards how will this affect the recipient? Will it put pressure or discomfort on the person? Would it hurt the person or affect him or her negatively? Is it better for that person if one never confessed or revealed one's feelings? Sometimes the highest expression of regard is to stay silent. Sometimes the ultimate act of love is to refrain from acting. I think XL understands that thoughtfulness and restraint very well. It might be seen by some as cowardice and certainly I have seen fans scolding the character of XL for always having 'a closed mouth but open heart,' but I think it's not a weakness, it's the strength of his love and the respect that he has for the person he loves to never force her into a position of being pressured or obligated. I find it very selfless and pure and admirable.
Yes, I totally agree with this.
I’ve also seen people saying this attitude was very cowardly on his part, but it couldn’t be farther away from the truth. It certainly is frustrating for us who wish he could be a bit more caring for his own well-being, but it surely is selfless and pure and admirable.
Yet another trait that makes him so fascinating.
t certainly is frustrating for us who wish he could be a bit more caring for his own well-being, but it surely is selfless and pure and admirable.nathsketch:
Yes, that's very understandable. But the fact that he loves without caring for his own well-being makes him so obviously worthy of being loved in many viewers' eyes (even if I don't know if he believes he is worthy of reciprocity).
I’ve also seen people saying this attitude was very cowardly on his part, but it couldn’t be farther away from the truth. It certainly is frustrating for us who wish he could be a bit more caring for his own well-being, but it surely is selfless and pure and admirable.
Yet another trait that makes him so fascinating.
The problem is, given the situation, he is taking care of himself. How could he be happy if XY isn't happy? Can he be happy if he turns on Gong Gong and his men?
Yes, that's very understandable. But the fact that he loves without caring for his own well-being makes him so obviously worthy of being loved in many viewers' eyes (even if I don't know if he believes he is worthy of reciprocity).
I've always believed there are societal issues and he has issues about being a demon. But that said, I don't think it means he believes he is undeserving of love, once he figures out what that is. He knows it isn't a concern for XY, as he told Jing, when Jing was crying in his beer about her engagement to Feng Long.
I don't know if it stems from Confucianism or another tradition of thought, but often when the Chinese talk about love or about making a love confession, inevitably the discourse turns towards how will this affect the recipient?
I found this has certain influence by the culture. In the ancient time, people always thought of love as a linear relationship with marriage (ultimate commitment). And it was usually man who express or confess his feelings first. If he could not fully committ to give the woman an "marriage", he might not comfess.
It is quite common motif in many novels and drama that the male character tries to do their best to protect his love one even if it harms himself. Especially when it involves to DEATH or when he is afraid his lover will be miserable after his death, he always tries to push the "lover" away or make her hate him. Typical thinking for men is that the women's survise is the most important. For example, one of my favourite novel is "Shang Gu" by Ting Ling. The male character, Bai Jue, did not confess to Shang Gu. He did millions things for her, sacrified himself so that she could live forever etc. I find XL shares some similarity to Bai Jue. However, the later has an happy ending that the woman later knew his work and begged the God Father to reborn him for her. Bai Jue was luckier since he had "her" love for a short amount of time in their 2nd lives. Poor XL! He just might feel XY's unspoken love to him.
It is common for generals to not leave the battlefield during a losing battle (for example, XY's Fourth Uncle). The reasoning doesn't have to include love of fellow soldiers. It could be as simple as principle or customary practice for a given general or army.
It isn't common for generals to go to their certain deaths only because of love of fellow soldiers (for example, XL).
Based on XY's thoughts in chapter 35, it seems like the only reason Chang Yi died was because of camaraderie / love for his fellow soldiers. She said he could have survived but chose not to. He didn't stay out of customary practice. He stayed for his soldiers.
-----
Chapter 35:
Xiao Yao couldn’t imagine, but she understood what Xiang Liu felt. Her Fourth Uncle could have survived that day, and he did love Fourth Aunt and Zhuan Xu, but he chose to die alongside his soldiers. In this world there was camaraderie so strong that one would die rather than abandon it.
A normal response would have been to disband and go home. Gong Gong's army's response is pathetic and sad. I keep thinking that it's closer to a cult than normal, although this thought isn't fully formed yet. I see little-to-no honor in it, unlike Fourth Uncle's and Chi You's situations.
General Ru So / Ru Shou burned them out of the mountains by QS town. They no longer had a camp to go back to.
If the remnant army had completely disbanded earlier and the soldiers had tried to re-integrate into normal life in the land that used to be Sheng Nong but is now Xuan Yuan, that would mean abandoning their vows, their principles and their identities. It would mean having to kneel before the Emperor of Xuan Yuan after fighting so hard and so long to protect Sheng Nong from Xuan Yuan's invasion, after centuries of their comrades and countrymen dying because of that invasion. It's sad and frustrating that they are unwilling to take that step, but I can see why they might choose to take that stance.
XL also used the word "pathetic" to describe Gong Gong and the remnant army, but I don't think he really meant it when he used that word. It felt like XY calling XL an idiot in chapter 51 after his death. It felt like an expression of love, sadness, bitterness, and frustration rolled up together.
So, would you say that XL loved Gong Gong and his fellow soldiers more than XY?
I would say that XL was willing to put his life on the line and to die for / with all of them (Gong Gong, the remnant army, and XY).
When XL offered to have XY transfer the poisonous bug into him, and when he willingly accepted it, he was putting his life in her hands. He went from being a nearly unkillable entity with eight extra lives to a being who could be killed in one fell swoop if this one low-powered deity with no extra lives was killed. If XY had fully died in chapter 22 (and she very nearly did), XL would have died with her. And it would've been a direct and foreseeable consequence of his choice to accept the bug.
After saving XY in chapter 22, XL could have chosen to break the bug connection (which would have created a situation where XY could die without killing him). XY even asked him to remove the bug several times. But he chose to keep the connection in place and used it to save XY's life a second time in chapter 43 (as it helped him find her in time) and again in chapter 48 (and he arguably used it, to a lesser extent, to help save her the second time Xing Yue tried to assassinate XY in between those chapters) before finally breaking the connection at the last moment in chapter 48 before his final battle. He was willing to risk dying with XY throughout those 100+ years where they shared the bug connection. And he was willing to die with his fellow soldiers too. More than just willing. When it got to the point where he could no longer save them, he chose to die with them.
Because he was so good at saving XY's life, XY survived so many near-death experiences and it was his fellow soldiers that were wiped out first. So XL died with them.
Whether the love and loyalty he felt for Gong Gong and his comrades was greater than his love for XY... I'm not sure. But I am sure that he loved them all deeply and selflessly.
His love for XY is selfless and pure. One of his characteristics that XY also shared is they enjoy good, beautiful things but it was not needed for them to possess those things. That may explain his action is to make the best for XY regardless of being without her
This is also a good point. If XL had been possessive and loved XY selfishly, he might've tried to pursue a romantic relationship with XY regardless of the pain that choice likely would have caused her. Instead, he loved her selflessly. Alleviating her loneliness and replacing it with companionship and happiness. Teaching her the skills to protect herself. Comforting her in times of sadness. Saving her in times of peril. Even bringing her fiance back from the dead because he knew that she loved him and that he could be the kind of life partner that she wanted. Selfless choice after selfless choice.
XL may have felt that TSJ was in a better position than he was to give XY the life and the happy ending that she wanted. He may even have felt like it would not have been possible for XY to have a happy ending with him.
I imagine some readers view XL's decision to die on the battlefield as a selfish choice because, in their view, it seems like XL chose death with the remnant army over life and happiness with XY. Like he stole that possible ending from both of them. But if XL didn't believe that there was a good chance that XY could have a happy ending with him even if he chose to live, or if he at least believed that TSJ would be in a better position to give XY the kind of life and happy ending she wanted, then his choice doesn't seem selfish. It fits in with his choice to push XY away, to push her to TSJ, to give her everything he could before leaving, and to minimize the impact that his death would have on her... consistently selfless choices.
The other thing, is that it wasn't about HIS choice. It was always about XY's choice. XY wouldn't admit or confess because of fear, but XL didn't confess because he didn't want to force XY to make a hurtful choice, he didn't want to obligate her affections.Kokuto:
I felt like it was very much about XL's choice, especially from chapter 22 on. XL made his decision and pushed XY away, even when XY tried to make bids. He controlled how things played out according to his own plan.
I don't know if it stems from Confucianism or another tradition of thought, but often when the Chinese talk about love or about making a love confession, inevitably the discourse turns towards how will this affect the recipient? Will it put pressure or discomfort on the person? Would it hurt the person or affect him or her negatively? Is it better for that person if one never confessed or revealed one's feelings? Sometimes the highest expression of regard is to stay silent. Sometimes the ultimate act of love is to refrain from acting. I think XL understands that thoughtfulness and restraint very well. It might be seen by some as cowardice and certainly I have seen fans scolding the character of XL for always having 'a closed mouth but open heart,' but I think it's not a weakness, it's the strength of his love and the respect that he has for the person he loves to never force her into a position of being pressured or obligated. I find it very selfless and pure and admirable.
Agree with all of this.
How could he be happy if XY isn't happy? Can he be happy if he turns on Gong Gong and his men?
Yes, very important considerations.
He knows it isn't a concern for XY, as he told Jing, when he was crying in his beer about her engagement to Feng Long.
This reminds me of two moments in the novel.
-----
Chapter 7:
“Who let me have nine-heads? Of course it gets complicated and contradictory.”
Xiao Liu couldn’t help but laugh out loud and almost swallowed water and quickly grabbed Xiang Liu’s arm. “You…..you….didn’t you say you hate people mentioning you are a nine-headed demon? The nine-heads is your big sore spot. If anyone mentioned it, you would kill them.”
“You’re still alive.”
Xiao Liu mumbled, “For now….”
“What I loathe is that when they discuss me, they look down on me as strange and weird. I let you discuss it because…” Xiang Liu turned to the side and propped his arm under his head and looked at Xiao Liu. “...you may laugh at me, but deep down inside you don’t think a nine-headed demon is strange.”
Xiao Liu smiled. “That’s because I used to be even more weird than you.”
“So you hid in the mountains and refused to see anyone?”
“Yup.”
Xiang Liu lightly stroked Xiao Liu’s head and Xiao Liu stared in shock back at Xiang Liu. “Is this considered having a heart-to-heart under the moonlight?”
Xiang Liu replied, “Until the next time you anger me, then yes.”
Xiao Liu sighed. “Peaceful times are short, just like happiness is momentary. Flowers bloom and wilt, the moon waxes and wanes. But the beauty in life is merely this.”
Xiang Liu snarked, “Who said once that even the most beautiful view would grow old with time?” Xiao Liu smiled and said nothing. It was sunrise by the time Xiao Liu got home soaking wet.
-----
Chapter 43:
“What about the man who was with you before? You called him Bei.” Left Ear saw Bei many times in the slave death match arena, but he was always wearing a dog face mask so Left Ear didn’t know what Bei looked like.
Xiao Yao looked at Xiang Liu just as he glanced at her and the two’s eyes met. Xiao Yao immediately looked away and said to Left Ear, “He died.”
Left Ear’s normally dispassionate eyes turned sad. In his heart, Bei wasn’t just someone who experienced the same fate as him, he was also Left Ear’s teacher that guided him to be reborn. Many times when Left Ear collapsed from a severe injury, feeling like not a shred of hope was left, he would see Bei silently sitting in the audience staring at him. He never said anything, but Bei’s presence was enough to convey warmth and hope to Left Ear. It gave him strength to stand back up one more time. Left Ear’s gratitude to Xiao Yao wasn’t just because she hugged him and gave him a sack of money, it was also because of Xiao Yao and Bei’s relationship. Because Xiao Yao accepted his own species, because she was friends with his own species.
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