I see what you are saying about the first singing of the Fei Fei song, AH, and I agree that she can't be thinking of XL when she first sings it.Kokuto:
(＾＾)ｂ
But I think of it as an XL / XY song, because it is inextricably linked to XL's first appearance in the drama.
Yep, it's definitely inextricably linked to XL's first appearance.
Of course, the lyrics do work for their relationship -- both versions. It also works to forshadow XL's role, and echoes the mermaid's song.
Yep.
Just like the Fei Fei, XL is lured to XY by the authentic sorrow of the song, and works to alleviate that sadness.
On a meta level, absolutely. Although in my mind there's the sorrowful song that XY sings to lure out the Fei Fei, there's her moment of vulnerability where she talks about not having anyone to rely on, no place to go, and no means of protecting herself, and there's the conversation they have when XL first visits the clinic where XY talks about being afraid of being loneliness.
IMO, the second and third parts were bigger factors than the song XY sang in "luring" XL out and causing him to decide to try to alleviate her sorrows and loneliness.
My only point with respect to the song is that logic dictates that the only person that XY could have been thinking of when she sang the song in chapter 2 was CX.AH :
First, we were debating about the scene when XY saw Jing after her coma and she used part of poems to tell something.
- your opinion: first , the poem was out of the flow etc and if it is intended to express her intention of avoiding missing someone then that person is CX. Of course XY did miss CX. Just how she thought of him when being tortured is enough to show that she did think of CX.
- My opinion: She used Jing to avoid/ supress her feeling for XL.
Thoughout the novel, the pattern that she used Jing to replace or avoid/supress or venting her emotion for XL was consistent. There was no case for using Jing for CX. and also the missing in the poem is about a woman's longing for her lover (it doesn't matter if he was king or noble man to afford for such luxurious wine cup and container. TH used such luxurious one to imply to Jing - a noble gentlement who even with poor clothes still radiated noble aura)
Of course everyone can have their own opinion. But placing the scene in the whole story, which one is more reasonable. This also can explained why XY kept testing YSQ and accepted the 15 year promise. She was scared of having feeling for XL. Her trauma shortcoming was triggered and she tried to find escape route by choosing YSQ because YSQ met all of her requirement for being a companion partner.
Xiao Yao smiled “I know it’s hard which is why I don’t think about any man. I’m too scared of falling in and not being able to save myself…..” Xiao Yao sighed “Even if I have a bit of stirring, I do my best to rein it in.” (Chapter 16 when talking with Yellow Emperor about partner)
P/S: About the song. It met the requirements to lure fei fei that you show the quote. And that is the most important. It seems that she did not only pure fei fei but also the 9 headed demon. Thus it is clearly very effective and suitable one. thinking of CX or not as one of reasons for the song doesn't change the core story.
To me she just sings it as a way to express her sorrow and desire for a forever companion.blabla100:
I can't believe I'm saying this, but she definitely targets Jing with when they were having their cozy illicit time at Feng Long's house. But she can't make fetch happen, no matter how hard she tries. Like XL, the audience (ME) trusts the beast's instinct, and knows who that song is for. ;p
21 minutes agoH19279:
AH :
My only point with respect to the song is that logic dictates that the only person that XY could have been thinking of when she sang the song in chapter 2 was CX.
First, we were debating about the scene when XY saw Jing after her coma and she used part of poems to tell something.
I did not bring up the song in my comment on XY quoting the poem in chapter 6. Link
I mentioned the sorrowful song in part of a separate comment about XY's feelings for CX throughout the novel. Link
blabla100 mentioned the song in a response to my comment Link
And you did as well, noting that you view the song as having nothing to do with CX Link
I responded Link
You responded Link
I responded Link
And you responded Link
I think it's safe to say this became its own separate topic of discussion.
P/S: About the song. It met the requirements to lure fei fei that you show the quote. And that is the most important. It seems that she did not only pure fei fei but also the 9 headed demon. Thus it is clearly very effective and suitable one.
Yep.
Linking to CX or not doesn't change the core story.
Agreed. I don't think I ever suggested otherwise.
I honestly don't see the song she sang în chapter 2 as targeting anyone. To me she just sings it as a way to express her sorrow and desire for a forever companion. She just seems to be singing about her loneliness. I don't really belive she thinks of CX either
That's possible. In chapter 2 she might have sung a love song about missing someone forever and never forgetting, and tapped into the abstract sorrow of not having a great love in her life at that point.
To me it seems more logical that XY would think of the person she had been missing for 300 years when singing a song like that, and tapped into the more tangible sorrow associated with missing CX and never forgetting him. But that's merely an inference.
I belive that at that point în time she felt abandoned by him too, I mean he never came to look for her, right? I don't really remember the exact timeline of the events, though.
In the period between her escape from Jade Mountain and chapter 2, XY did not know that CX had been looking for her or that he still held out hope that she was alive and would come back to him.
But that didn't stop her from thinking of CX throughout the 30 years that she was held by the nine-tailed fox. And it didn't stop her from thinking of him when she was tortured in chapter 5.
Even so, that ballad is a song of sorrow, not a song of longing.
Agreed.
also the missing in the poem is about a woman's longing for her lover
The poem is about a woman who uses alcohol to escape the suffering of missing her husband at a time when she is unable to reunite with him after a long separation.
And after quoting the poem, XY adds a further thought about wanting to forget sad things.
Couldn't those sad things be all the deaths she and CX experienced together when they were children (CX's father, CX's mother, their grandmother, and XY's mother)? And also the sadness of the lives they each led for the 300 years after their separation? "From death" (the deaths of many loved ones) "to life" (living on, but apart, after all of those deaths that they had to deal with)?
Alternatively, "from death" could refer to XY being willing to / nearly dying in order to save CX's life after she finally recognized him when XL was about to kill him. She survived that blow (thanks to XL intervening to heal her) but decided not to reveal her true identity to CX afterwards. So "from death to life" could basically mean, "from nearly dying for CX as soon as I recognized him to surviving and continuing to live on now without revealing my identity to CX, let me indulge for a moment in order to temporarily forget all the pain and sadness of the situation that is my relationship with CX now".
-----
Chapter 6:
Xiao Liu walked up to Jing, smiled and sighed. "I'll drink from the gold cup, so that I won't miss him any longer! I'll drink from the jade wine pouring vessel, so that I won't suffer any longer!" From death to life, let me indulge for a moment and forget about those sad things.
Jing suddenly embraced Xiao Liu, gently but tightly pulling him into his arms. Xiao Liu closed his eyes, allowing his head to lightly rest on Jing’s shoulder. In this moment, they were just Shi Qi and Xiao Liu.
-----
Chapter 9:
Zhuan Xu tightly embraced her, just like when they were small, when his father died, his mother committed suicide, in those endless dark nights he held her tightly.
...
Xiao Liu remembered the first time they met when they were kids. Mom and Auntie were still alive back then. Mom smiled. “Xiao Yao, you have to listen to your older brother from now on.” Auntie smiled and said, “Zhuan Xu, you have to watch out for your little sister.” The two of them glared at each other like enemy crows. Then Auntie committed suicide, and then Mom died on the battlefield….and they were the only ones left.
-----
Chapter 47:
Xiao Yao was about to pass out but Zhuan Xu’s words took her back to the very beginning and it was as clear as yesterday, “When I was locked up in the cage by the nine-tailed fox, all I could think of was you…..all I missed was you….when you didn’t recognize me, I still used my life to save you…….back then…….there was no Jing yet………..” Xiao Yao’s voice trailed off.
Zhuan Xu cried out, “Xiao Yao! Xiao Yao!………..” but he could feel only silence as her breathing ceased.
On Cao Yun Peak, they played during the day and slept in each other’s arms at night. They buried and said farewell to their loved ones, they endured the pain together……….Xiao Yao said her heart had turned cold into stone, but he remained the most precious treasure that Xiao Yao kept deep in her heart, in the softest most secure place. When Jing said he would give first and trust first to try and win Xiao Yao’s heart, Xiao Yao had already done the same for Zhuan Xu. She didn’t like politics or care about the greater good, but she accompanied him back to Xuan Yuan Mountain and always protected him…..
First, we were debating about the scene when XY saw Jing after her coma and she used part of poems to tell something.
your opinion: first , the poem was out of the flow etc and if it is intended to express her intention of avoiding missing someone then that person is CX. Of course XY did miss CX. Just how she thought of him when being tortured is enough to show that she did think of CX.
My opinion: She used Jing to avoid/ supress her feeling for XL.
Thoughout the novel, the pattern that she used Jing to replace or avoid/supress or venting her emotion for XL was consistent. There was no case for using Jing for CX.
I disagree. IMO, XY used both TSJ and alcohol to try to temporarily forget the sad memories she shared with CX and how much she missed him despite feeling that she could not reveal her true identity to him.
In terms of the comfort that XY received from TSJ, there is a clear parallel between chapter 6 and chapter 9. In chapter 6, WXL "drinks" and "indulges for a moment" / "forgets" by allowing TSJ to embrace "him" and resting "his" head on TSJ's shoulder. In chapter 9, after a particularly emotionally painful encounter with CX that really brings the pain of their relationship at that point to the forefront, with WXL clearly being extremely sad and even crying, WXL lets TSJ pull "him" into an embrace and buries "his" face in TSJ's chest while crying. But "he" still refuses to reveal "his" true identity to CX at that point.
-----
Chapter 6:
Xiao Liu walked up to Jing, smiled and sighed. "I'll drink from the gold cup, so that I won't miss him any longer! I'll drink from the jade wine pouring vessel, so that I won't suffer any longer!" From death to life, let me indulge for a moment and forget about those sad things.
Jing suddenly embraced Xiao Liu, gently but tightly pulling him into his arms. Xiao Liu closed his eyes, allowing his head to lightly rest on Jing’s shoulder. In this moment, they were just Shi Qi and Xiao Liu.
-----
Chapter 9:
The Grand Emperor said nothing and Zhuan Xu bolted up and rushed to the door. “I’m going to ask her. I’m going to ask her who she really is, and why she won’t reunite with me.”
...
“In this world, it’s not only ill intent that causes harm, a lot of harm is caused by love. You want to know who she is, I want to know too. But don’t force her. Give her time to tell us who she is.”
...
Zhuan Xu’s hand touched Xiao Liu’s leg and he tenderly asked, “Does it hurt?”
Xiao Liu turned her head and closed her eyes. “No.”
Zhuan Xu had hundreds, thousands of words he wanted to say, tightly wound in his chest so he felt like exploding but he didn’t dare to open his mouth. In the three hundred years since, he was no longer the boy pushing her on the swing under the phoenix tree. Both his parents were dead, he was exiled and had to scrape by under others, he had worn his mask for too long and no longer knew how to feel genuine joy and genuine pain. He learned to manipulate others but forgot to to act with sincerity. He learned to use all sorts of strategy to achieve his goals but forgot how to converse candidly.
Zhuan Xu stood up and said to Shi Qi, “Take good care of her.”
...
Shi Qi saw Xiao Liu had her eyes tightly shut, and only after the sound of Zhuan Xu’s departing footsteps faded did the tears tumble down from the corner of her eyes. Shi Qi pulled Xiao Liu into his arms and Xiao Liu buried her face in his chest as her tears fell like the rain.
It’s been over three hundred years, and she was no longer the little girl on the swing under the phoenix tree.
She once roamed in the deep mountains, drinking blood like an animal; she was once locked in a cage, raised like a pet; she was once chased and she killed many; her life was a lie, it was blood, it was death, everyone lied to her so she didn’t know who to trust, she didn’t know who to be in front of everyone.
Thoughout the novel, the pattern that she used Jing to replace or avoid/supress or venting her emotion for XL was consistent.
I agree that there are several instances throughout the novel where XY uses TSJ as a proxy of some kind for XL or where a difficulty in her relationship with XL (in some cases, difficulties that are intentionally manufactured by XL) prompts XY to pivot and decide to focus on her relationship with TSJ instead.
But I don't think that began in chapter 6. While XY almost certainly did have nascent romantic feelings for XL by chapter 6, I don't think she had intense feelings of missing XL, suffering because of how much she missed XL, or wanting to forget sad memories that she shared with XL to the point of needing TSJ to distract her from them in that chapter.
As a point of interest (not something that affects the point we're debating) I would also point out that XY frequently gets help from XL and FFB to distract her from pain and suffering, including heartache, that she endures because of TSJ. IMO, he did the best job of distracting XY from her heartache and loneliness.
Of course everyone can have their own opinion.
Agreed.
But placing the scene in the whole story, which one is more reasonable.
IMO, the CX explanation seems more logical to me, in context.
This also can explained why XY kept testing YSQ and accepted the 15 year promise. She was scared of having feeling for XL. Her trauma shortcoming was triggered and she tried to find escape route by choosing YSQ because YSQ met all of her requirement for being a companion partner.
XY quotes the poem to TSJ in chapter 6. In the next scene in that chapter, she begins preparing to leave QS town. In chapter 8, her preparations have been realized and it's clear that she intends to leave soon, and that she is not planning to bring TSJ with her. Using TSJ to help deal with her feelings for XL (if she was even aware of them in chapter 6) clearly wasn't her long term plan in chapter 6.
In the end, CX scuppers her plans to leave when he shows up with orders to bring her to Five Gods Mountain. She wasn't able to call XL to help her, so she could only ask TSJ for help. She decided to use that as an opportunity to create a test for TSJ that she wanted him to fail: she would ask him to help her escape and risk incurring the wrath of the Grand Emperor. When he refused, that would enable her to cut the threads of longing in her heart. But he passed, and the threads grew stronger instead of being cut.
As for the 15 year promise, XY thought that since she couldn't sever those threads of longing, she would wait and see what would happen to them over 15 years. Maybe they would form a web, or maybe they would disappear.
As a point of interest (not something that affects the point we're debating) I would also point out that XY frequently gets help from XL and FFB to distract her from pain and suffering, including heartache, that she endures because of TSJ. IMO, he did the best job of distracting XY from her heartache and loneliness.
Because XL is a big ole fluffy Fei Fei!
I can feel the ice daggers piercing me. ;p
but rather sad things that she has been remembering her whole life (from birth to death / from the cradle to the grave).
The sad things she wants to forget for a moment are not new things, but rather sad things that she has been remembering her whole life (from birth to death / from the cradle to the grave).
The sad memories she shared with CX went back to her early childhood.
The original text of that sentence followed the poem is
从死到生，让我姑且放纵一下吧，那些悲伤的事情就不想了
From death to life: which means she has just returned from the near death back to life (by the injury caused by XL). This doesn't mean from birth. You can try google. translate or bing or baidu or handbook.com. It will give you one result. I don't know where did you get "from cradle to the grave".
The sad things are that she didn't want to think could be the injure cause by XL, the expected encounter with CX whom she first helped XL to kill, and also XL fighting to death with CX. If she had some feeling will XL and facing XL fight agaist CX to death again would be devastated (one more reason to stop that feeling)
IMO, the CX explanation seems more logical to me, in context.
H19279:
This also can explained why XY kept testing YSQ and accepted the 15 year promise. She was scared of having feeling for XL. Her trauma shortcoming was triggered and she tried to find escape route by choosing YSQ because YSQ met all of her requirement for being a companion partner.
XY quotes the poem to TSJ in chapter 6. In the next scene in that chapter, she begins preparing to leave QS town. In chapter 8, her preparations have been realized and it's clear that she intends to leave soon, and that she is not planning to bring TSJ with her. Using TSJ to help deal with her feelings for XL (if she was even aware of them in chapter 6) clearly wasn't her long term plan in chapter 6.
What I mean here that She already formed this kind of behavior, using Jing as alternative route. XL made her hurt, she had YSQ to as painkiller from chapter 2 already. This time was not only the physical pain but initial of emotion pain.
She already observed YSQ to evaluate him as her companion. She asked him to bash with her. " Even though it was the same sun warming him, the same pallet he was laying on, but two people basking under the sun felt particularly nice for some reason"
Xiao Liu said softly “You shouldn’t spoil me. If I get used to it, what’ll I do when you leave.” “I won’t leave.” Xiao Liu smiled, millions made promises, it was hard to find one who kept them. If he was Shi Qi, it might’ve been easier, but he wasn’t just Shi Qi. (Chapter 4). Tian talked about cold heart and soft heart, did WXL also consider her case too? When WXL and YSQ talked about Tian Er's case, did WXL question herself also? if so, who could that be her "partner" in that case - only YSQ.
WXL was very disappointed and sad when YSQ's real identity was discovered. YSQ ticked all the boxes for her ideal man when she talked with Yellow Emperor. Jing was not.
From what happened in the pool, during the battle, she probably relized "she had a kind of stirring" feeling with XL. So, the scene in chapter 6 when she briefly considered Jing as YSQ and leaned on her shoulder to forget the sad things is the foreshadow of her behavior of venting her feeling from XL to Jing. At this point it was just temporary feeling release. It didn't mean she plan long term with him from here but it shows such idea exist in her mind
“If I knew it was so painful to run, I would have chosen not to run. But if I didn’t run, then I would have never known that you would do anything for me. But what shall I do now? It would have been better had you not helped me. I could have easily severed my longing and hope. (Chapter 8)
Since when she had such longing and hope? YSW was idea candidate. She kept testing him because she was pessimistic and negative, she didn't trust him but she had soft heart to him and somehow she kept small hope to see if he would put her first. He helped her with the herb althought it was not good for his business and himself--> checked; he already showed some as YSQ before, he was willing to help WXL run out from QS town ---> checked, and because her stirring feeling, accepting the 15 year promise is also a kind of solution to deviate her to other route (falling further into XL).
As a point of interest (not something that affects the point we're debating) I would also point out that XY frequently gets help from XL and FFB to distract her from pain and suffering, including heartache, that she endures because of TSJ. IMO, he did the best job of distracting XY from her heartache and loneliness.
You have given a lot of examples about when XL caused XY hurt, she would came for Jing as painkiller. But you don't see much from emotion pain. In the opposite, you saw a lot of example XL comforted XY because of emotion pain (from Jing)
That is true. XL/FFB understood her and because of the heart-mind connection by the lovers' bug, he was alwasy there to comfort her whenever she needed when the pain was not caused by him:
- after Jing became clan leader --> he brought her to see Left Ear, giving her hope
- when Jing got married --> he used his heart beat to share her feeling
- In CX's wedding --> he brought her to the sea
- When she was sad of the rummor about her dad Chi You --> he comforted her in the donkey meat seller etc
But XL also caused her a lot of emotional problem (desire, longing, heartbroken). Since XY didn't acknowledge her feeling for him then It is not so obvious in the novel.
- The scene in the dragon bone prison beach. XL wanted to "kiss"her --> she wanted to kiss Jing
- In Cao Ao, diving in the water, she thought of XL --> wanted to pass air to Jing
- FFB left for sometime (after eating her lotus-koi dish) ---> later she developed romantic activity with Jing
- waking up after 37 years, XL refused to see her --> she came and treasured Jing. She did exact the same thing that XL did to her on Jing
- XL scared her outside the casino --> went away with Jing
- After 1 month in QS town and XL cut off the relationship ---> come to Jing again (althought XL also triggered her). But she released her emotion to Jing. That conversation was not only why XY-Jing failed in the past but she also share her pain (that she suffered from chapter 27-31) which connected to XL I lost the person I love/like
- And the debate about the chapter 6 which I was also very suprised that it happened such early. However, TH could use this scene as a foreshadow for her typical behavior.
- Her longing for XL in chapter 16 then she vented it through Jing ( each strand is longing )
About the topic of the song, I remembered it as it was mentioned in your post responding for the missing information in chapter 6 (the poem and how to interprete it). So, the debate about the song still attached to the topic who was behind the poem in chapter 6.
Suicide is a complex topic. For some, it's an act of impulse done out of a mental crisis and too much pain. For others, it's a carefully thought-through, planned-out decision (such as euthanasia). Modern thoughts tend to view suicide through a negative lens; that it must be symptomatic of emotional disturbances and mental illness. That hasn't always been the case throughout history. Such as the concept of seppuku. So I don't think we should dismiss suicidal acts as simply mental crises and not examine other potential cognitive processes behind them.HeadInTheClouds:
Agreed, it is complex, especially given different cultural views on it. Probably my own take on it, but maybe not, given both euthanasia and seppuku have their own unique terms for the acts, but I don't consider either suicide exactly. But that another conversation entirely -- and neither applies to XY's suicide attempt. I do think hers come out of a mental crisis. Of course, there's interior and exterior process and events that caused it to be considered.
I do agree that we shouldn't view XY and XY/XL's relationship solely through her suicide attempts.
Yes, I wouldn't regard her actions or thoughts at this time as the proof of anything, other than she was mentally in crisis.
Hence, we are looking at it as one particular aspect of their relationship; one that I think is quite relevant given the way their lives are tied together via the Lovers Bugs. XY's act of poisoning Cang Xuan and herself isn't one that was impulsive or irrational; it was a very deliberate act - she had to think about the dosage of the poison etc. Her actions here aligned a bit with that of murder-suicide, the motivations behind such suicides are different compared to other suicidal acts. For some, suicide is the ultimate act of revenge. For others, it's an act of control. As I said, complex topic.
Maybe, but I sort of disagree. Suicide doesn't have to be spontaneous or unplanned. One of the warning signs is people thinking / planning / talking, often very meticulously, about it. Murder suicide is the similar in that they both come from an overwhelming mental crisis.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that XY's actions and words are already unreliable, but this moment is the worst for trying to understand her and her thoughts and feelings with regards to XL.
I can confirm that writing your own fix-it fic can be cathartic. ^^
I'll bet it would be, controlling the narrative would be so satisfying. Unfortunately, I have zero writing ability. Creative writing was always my worst unit in English.
And now I know who to blame! Rumiko Takahashi!!
Tong Hua would've been 16 when the first volume of the manga came out. I definitely think it's plausible. ^^
Lost You Forever was released in 2013; the Inuyasha anime was released in the early 2000s, with Tong Hua's age, being a fan is a definite possibility. I only lament that she didn't give Xiang Liu a happy ending like Sesshōmaru :-(. I blame it on her penchant for tragedy.
I'll bet it would be, controlling the narrative would be so satisfying. Unfortunately, I have zero writing ability. Creative writing was always my worst unit in English.
Lost You Forever was released in 2013; the Inuyasha anime was released in the early 2000s, with Tong Hua's age, being a fan is a definite possibility. I only lament that she didn't give Xiang Liu a happy ending like Sesshōmaru :-(. I blame it on her penchant for tragedy.
Well, isn't the world filled with more tragedy than joy?
The younger me would have been absolutely devastated by Xiangliu's end ...
....but the current me accepts that such pain is unfortunately the reality of life
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