Eleison

The second half of Rebel is my favorite, so at least hang in there until then. There are some really powerful scenes in that half, and a beautiful score/OST. One of my favorites.

I've tried a few other Cdramas that I thought I'd like based on comments and ratings and so far so good. A few, like the Long Ballad, I couldn't make past the first episode. 😅 I was so put-off by the Manga/webtoon (whatever the original was) insert scenes and anachronisms. The world felt fake and two-dimensional to me.

Some of the more fantastical Cdramas (the more full-fledged wuxia/nianxia) so far have been too flowery and over-the-top for me and so stylized it's distracting. I like the more grounded stuff like this.

But I will definitely try some more! They're definitely, in some sense, harder to get into than Kdramas because they feel much more Eastern, if you know what I mean, and so "other" in a way I'm not used to but also find fascinating.

You said you haven't seen LLTG and The Double, right? They're not as brilliant as this, but they are stronger in some ways though not as even and consistent and subtle; still really great to watch (I think LLTG's music is even better than NIF), though, and they have really cool female leads with compelling personalities and brilliant minds. (And obviously a higher production value which makes things more immersive).

Chinese drama screenwriters need to given western screenwriters (and Kdrama writers) some lessons in how to write female leads. Some have been SO GOOD. NOT something I expected, to be honest. 😅

And thanks for chatting back and forth! I have so much to share and unpack but because this thread is so old people rarely post (how fun it would have been to talk about it while it was airing!). I'm 100% showing this to my sister so I can talk about it with her, too. 😅

Well, in short, I loved it!

A few final highlights:

When Chang Su got summoned by the Emperor and all his friends were freaking out, I was inwardly shrieking at the cuteness 🥹😭. Literally all of his friends (Nihuang, Meng, never-break-the-rules Jingyan (who never would have committed treason for any reason), all of the Jiangzuo Alliance guys) were on board to stage a coup against the Emperor in a heartbeat if he tried to hurt Chang Su. And the decision was made without question, without hesitation. They are willing to break all the rules--even trample on their own principles--if it means keeping him safe. It shows their utter devotion to him, and is an incredibly beautiful homage to Chang Su AND Lin Shu after all he's suffered to get Jingyan (and the empire) to this moment. If Chang Su couldn't be protected and cherished, what had they gained? He was the heart and soul of this entire thing, and the sole reason they got this far. Protecting him was protecting the empire.

Another favorite moment was when Consort Jing told Jingyan (when he was a broken, hot mess about not recognizing Lin Shu), "Make sure you make his dream come true. You must not fail." 😭😭😭

Another scene: when Chang Su kept calling Jingyan "Your Highness" and timidly asked if he could be present for the final showdown. Jingyan's indignant anger was just the best. That Chang Su should think he wouldn't be there! Jingyan was so insulted that Chang Su even thought to ask. 😂

And of course, the showdown at the Emperor's party. I actually didn't cry throughout the drama (though I felt all these powerful scenes deeply), but the one that almost did me in, though, was when Chang Su was leaving the Emperor after he got strong-armed into allowing the case to be reopened, and the Emperor started shouting out the things they'd done in the past as uncle and nephew when Chang Su was a child and then you could see Chang Su just about lose it. That sent home just how cruel, selfish, and pathetic the Emperor was, to try and appeal to what they shared in the past to excuse his behavior. Disgusting and vile. It made the Emperor's wickedness more personal than anything we'd seen before, and it was gut-wrenching. They didn't make the Emperor a one-dimensional villain, though. He felt very, very human. It was also fascinating to see the way all the good characters managed to respect him and do their duty to him while slowly declawing him at the same time. That was masterful.

It's just the kind of revenge story I like. Chang Su didn't use his enemies' own methods that were used on him to defeat them, he simply weaponized the truth, and made sure their crimes were brought to light. And this, in itself, destroyed them (MCS talked about scheming and cruelty and conniving; absolute garbage. He never did anything of the sort). And that was a beautiful theme throughout: the truth must, and will, come out.


NOTE: I also loved the way they showed how hard Chang Su worked to strategize. They showed him sitting, thinking, being kept up at night planning and weighing options. He didn't have magic powers that always gave him the right answers, he worked his bum off to come up with them. There was a scene early on that demonstrated this which I thought was a really cool, subtle detail. Jingyan even pointed out how in contrast Chang Su and Lin Shu were but that was just because his "work," out of necessity, had to change, and Chang Su had adapted to the only tools he had now to accomplish his goals: his wits and learning.

Oh, cool! He was such a quirky character in NIF.

Just watched Nirvana in Fire. It's a Cdrama, but still an absolutely incredible drama. So. Good.

Rebel: Thief Who Stole The People is a good sageuk (one of my favorites, along with Under The Queen's Umbrella) and the ML is a lead in SFD, which might be fun for you to see. :)

Well, whenever I see someone mention NIF, they rave about it, and now I finally know why. What a stunning, heart-wrenching, beautiful drama.

Balanced and steady, the story and characters seep slowly into your heart. And then... they take up permanent residence. 😂

It's as near perfect as it could be.

All I'll say is, be patient, embrace the gentle pace, and watch this masterpiece gradually unfold. It's absolutely worth the wait!

P.S. And, just fyi, if you don't want to follow Mei Chang Su 'to Hell and back' by the end of this drama, it might be a sign you have a heart of stone... 😉

Yeah, we never do get an explanation for why he and his friend were at odds in Episode 1, and what he seemed so upset about. I think what @RetiredGodofWar said makes sense, but this was definitely also left somewhat unaddressed.

Intercultural relationships are great for stories, but in real life they are VERY hard. Many that I see don't work out well. I know they CAN be done, but marriage/relationships are hard enough with someone who already shares your culture and background!

The more I see them the less I want one. 😬

I think it's a completely different generation than Season 1. I think Ting Sheng (the slave boy who gets trained to win against the Northern suitor with a special sword routine) is the only character that's in both seasons, from what I hear.

Okay! I've never read a Chinese novel, but I assume it's fairly modern?

That part cut from the drama with the hound sounds very Odyssey-like. 😏

My heart also broke at the scene where Xia Jiang tries to sabotage their friendship and Jingyan falters in his trust and they have that horrible altercation in the passage. Chang Su's shock and panic that Jingyan might discard him was so heartbreaking (probably partially because he was hurt, but largely because he was afraid, and afraid for Jingyan). It gave me the shivers to see the way he forced Jingyan to realize the error in his thinking rather than getting to the bottom of Jingyan's sudden, inexplicable coldness (also, the way Chang Su called Jingyan's name when he got angry with him and spoke familiarly to him. How could Jingyan not know it was his bestie? 🥹); Chang Su only ever thinks of other people and what is best for them, and never about himself. It's why his character is so beautifully sad; never once has he lived for himself!

(But at some point I want him to be selfish, to enjoy those around him while he can because they don't have long with him. 😭 They lost you once, dude, have some compassion on them! We know you've embraced the fact that you'll die, but they haven't! Especially not after they got you back from the dead!)

And then the way Jingyan realized, too late, what Chang Su had warned him about, that more people would suffer if they saved Wei Zeng. 😭 (Xia Jiang was gonna be TOAST). Jingyan has grown on me, too, because he was so stiff at the beginning that I struggled to see him as a main character for some reason, but as the actor started having to show more range and nuance for his character's arc, I'm now quite attached to him (I think he started growing on me more when he was in his mother's room, and broke down for the first time because he missed Lin Shu. 🥹 That was precious ).

I was relieved they started showing more flashbacks of them together outside the overused flashback of Chang Su "dying" (that's my only gripe so far; they played the Chiyan Army getting destroyed flashback way too many times).

I'm curious to see if Jingyan will be frustrated that he didn't figure it out like Nihuang and Consort Jing? They didn't need to be told. (And Commander Cheng already knew beforehand, haha, so he doesn't count).

Unlike most dramas, the second half of this is definitely the most enjoyable part. I know the slow parts in the beginning/middle were important, but after Episode 30 it really started picking up for me. It ups the ante and has so many great moments. Anyway, I'll report back after I finish, haha. 😂

P.S. You know the BGMs are good when you get excited to hear a theme again or long for it when you haven't heard it for a while. None of these reactions apply to this drama: "Why are they playing this again!?" or "I didn't even notice the music." 😅

Yep, I think so (to the virus). 😅

Yes, Consort Jing is amazing. She's so clever but is always composed and careful so people just constantly underestimate her.

And poor Jingyan thinks he has no friends and is so lonely and forlorn; is he bothered and melancholy (after they return from the Hunting Palace) because he knows Chang Su and his mom are lying to him? I know he's bothered by the case, but I'm wondering if he partly wants to uncover the truth because he senses he can't know the truth about Chang Su until the Chiyan army is cleared. I don't know. I just get the sense that he knows more than he realizes, but it's all too deep for words?

It's also fun to see how we all (the audience and those around Jingyan) underestimated him; all except Chang Su. And then he brought out the gem for all to see and everyone is surprised, but Chang Su's not. 😅 So good.

And Chang Su and Nihuang are so cute and heartbreaking at the same time. I love her character, too. And Commander Meng is also just the best. It's crazy that he knows so much long before Jingyan! 😅

The way Chang Su and Jingyan made plans to thwart Prince Yu's rebellion and were thinking in unison was so cool to watch. I was already lost with their conversation and then the camera showed Commander Meng looking between them with bewilderment and then he finally was like, "Dude! I can't keep up with this, someone help me understand what just happened!" (Was he maybe even having a bit of fomo? 😅).

It was just a perfect moment, and then the way Chang Su just casually pulled out the sword from Jingyan's scabbard like it was his weapon. And Jingyan's face. 😅 And then Chang Su had one of his VERY few "oopsies" moments with a facial expression showing that he was inwardly kicking himself.

I love that the cousins/friends are building another bond over this new struggle and Jingyan trusts Chang Su now as a good friend without even knowing who he really is. Can't wait for the reveal!!

Usually the trope of "I have to keep the truth from this person for their good," annoys the heck out of me, but this time the writer made it 100% make sense. Chang Su knows Jingyan like the back of his hand, and he knows his friend would never be able to be successful with their plan if he knew, and Jingyan delivers on all of Chang Su's predictions, which shows Chang Su's incredible intuition and insight. I love that careful tension of Chang Su trusting Jingyan deeply while at the same not trusting him at all. 😅

I'm loving this (at Episode 43), but just gotta say, who in their right mind would name their sons:

-Jingyu
-Jingyan
-Jingxuan
-Jingting
-Jinghuan
... 🤯

(I'm even missing a couple!) Maybe there's a rational explanation that has to do with royal custom or the language, but regardless, it took me almost half the drama to keep them straight. 😅

I think it also partly took me so long to keep people straight because many names are said without ever having a face to go with it, so until I could put names and faces together routinely, I was lost in the sea of similar names. 😅 I find Korean names super familiar now but the learning curve is steep again for tracking Chinese names. 😩 Oh well!

These terms and concepts are a big learning curve so far, but very cool to learn about. Thanks for the tip!

Haha, I was thinking I'd probably try season 2 afterwards! The only character overlap is TingSheng, yes?

I might have looked up some stuff about season 2 so I kind of know where the story is headed, and it's comforting to know that where MCS's father and friends failed, MCS and his friends will succeed (in putting a good Emperor on the throne!). I mean, even if I hadn't see the details, I guessed that's where we were headed if it ended happily. ☺️

I'm excited to see where the story goes. :)

ByJingyan you mean Prince Jing, right? And yes, I admit he's quite beautiful. 😅

Harem games how? Like the consorts scheming? I love Prince Jing's mom so far, and it totally makes sense that the moms would almost have more power than their sons. I can definitely see the connection between the son's power as proportional to his mom's power over the Emperor (unless you have a personal MCS giving you extra help, of course 😉).

Looking forward to the scenes you're talking about!

Haha, got it. I think it just helped me to think of it in these terms since the more powerful fighters harness some sort of natural energy (their qi?) to become more powerful. That seems similar? And it's kind of separate from simple sword-fighting techniques but more bound up in how you control the "energy" around you or in yourself? But like, the way tiny Fei Lui can lift huge men--it reminds me of the stuff Jedi can do because there's another almost "magical" element at play than just fighting techniques and physical strength.

And thanks, I really have NO idea what any of this is so it's very helpful to have a bit more context. I appreciate the detailed breakdown.

So... they're kind of like the Jedi, if the Jedi could be good and bad, and less monk-like? 🤣

Also, so far, I'm enjoying it! I'm around Episode 16 or so? It is a bit slow, but I like that I don't feel bated into watching more through cheap spectacle and silly plot twists. I love that the actors don't feel like gorgeous models with tons of plastic surgery or filters for their face (everyone looks more natural), and minus the wuxia-style martial arts which obviously isn't "realistic" (but still cool to watch), I love the realistic settings and tamer costumes. The sets are lovely, and the scenery and score compliment the subtle movement of the story very well.

I was extremely confused by who everyone was for a while, but I'm getting a much better handle on who everyone is, and how they're related to one another. I was still just confused by Nihuang, because there are so many similar names and it's not always clear (especially at the beginning) how they're related.

Right now, I'm really curious to see what MCS means by "I'm a cruel person," and that cryptic conversation with Pring Jing about sincerity. I jnow it was hinting at his wound of being betrayed, but I might have to go back and rewatch it. Clearly everyone close to him would walk through fire for him, and it's compelling to slowly be shown why (since I know I still don't have the full picture). He's comfortingly miles ahead of everyone but not in a way that removes suspense from the problems that arise. I loved the scene of him reuniting with Nihuang--can't wait for more like it! I don't think I have the Chang Su virus JUST yet, but he's definitely growing on me bit by bit, and his relationship with Fei Lui is ADORABLE. I love how well he can get a pulse on people and what they need and what makes them tick. He's an excellent judge of character and reads people well! He's brilliant, but grounded and humble and wants good to triumph. He's too cool to be real. 😅 I also kind of love that he can't fight and is physically weak. It's rare to watch MLs (especially in this sort of drama) who can't fight (but who needs to when you basically have an extra bodily extension that is Fei Lui who won't let anything get within an inch of you? 🤣).

I'll keep you posted on what I think as I continue. Thanks for answering all my queries! ☺️