General Japanese Drama Talk

The floor is open to anything and everything Jdrama :)

haha good point, and i have no idea if that's normal or just a drama and anime thing. i've noticed too that parents are very trusting in dramas and anime, letting young kids walk long distances or take the train to school and back alone.. who knows

ever notice that in so many dramas the main guy treats the girl like garbage and yet they expect you to root for them to end up together in the end? do Japanese girls take that much BS from guys in real life or is this also a drama exaggeration?

I'm not so much bothered by the fact that many dramas play on this cliché. Dramas are, after all, a product to be sold, and respond to precise "requests" from the public. What bothers me is that hordes of screaming fangirls happily overlook the issue, appeased by a pretty male face. And it isn't even so much the "mean" guy. The illusion that people change drastically thanks to love is naive, but the oldest romantic trope I know of and I am a victim of it myself.
What bothers me is the fact that above mentioned girls end up liking silly, ignorant or dominated female characters and only wait for them to marry and be happy ever after.
Mind you, I like happy endings too and this is not only a Japanese problem - it's not even only an Asian problem. But here it is, it troubles me that they don't even question the term romantic applied to a story between a meak, overly humble female and a domineering male.
As Kawai said, if the female stands her ground, I don't see a problem if the guy is just as stubborn.

A true comparison is hard because the history of Japan is so very different from ours - with ours meaning the western countries, which have common cultural roots. There has been a feminist movement - "Tatakau onnatachi" (women who fight) - since the end of the XIX century, but the war changed their society drastically. The word "housewife" was unkown in Japan until it was imported from the States after WWII. But women had only then the right to vote and to be recognized as individuals. Since then things have changed a lot, but until today women are "encouraged" to leave their job as soon as they marry.
To this, add the fact that the individualistic structure of society is one of the main differences between our countries even today. The Japanese society is based upon collectivity, mutual help inside groups of people, villages, city quarters and so on. Following the footsteps of the States (again), in recent years the conservative party has started to complain about the loss of the old value of family, implying that women are the ones most responsible for this.
This means that feminism is still a present word in Japan and even among the political parties the movement is still active today.
It's a complex situation.

This said, we are different in the big picture of things, but not in the detailed one. There's more talk about virginity now in our countries then there ever was at the end of last century and there is not one politician who doesn't bring up the "value" of traditional family to gain consensus. To go back to the world of dramas, Asian produce a lot but we westeners - mostly women - watch and love them too, more and more, hence doing nothing to oppose certain views on the role of women in society. We seem to be oddly attracted to this uneven romances which are reminiscent of centuries past.
Needless to say, I use "we" as a practical generalization, not to say we are all the same. :)

Kawaikochan wrote: I wonder how much of it is a gender issue and how much of it is the desire to believe that everyone is redeemable. Perhaps by expressing these conversions away from the "dark side" through stories, people obtain a hope that everyone is truly good deep down. For many, believing in the naturally good nature of mankind provides an incentive for "good" behavior. It also provides comfort to those who end up on the less fortunate side of a situation (eg, they were cheated on, robbed, etc.). Maybe it's a nonreligious/nonspiritual substitute for karma or divine intervention.
But to bring it back to the thread topic: do you think it is more common in jdramas than stories from elsewhere, particularly the West?

I don't think it's more common in Japan than than stories from elsewhere, but maybe because of all the huge western feminist movements, the subject is treated differently: just look how teenages girls are attracted to vampire stories ! All the ingredients are there! The vampire/demon as the bad guy, the sweet girl as the simply human girl and the good guy as the sweet shifter/animal-or-fake-blood-drinking vampire/angel/human.

In general I think those stories, coming from east or west, describe a girl who, becoming adult, has to choose between good or bad; good leading to a sweet and steady but also potentially boring life, and bad leading to a dangerous and/or aventurous, passionate life. This choice is symbolized by the person the heroïne decide to live with. This isn't new, not is it from any part of this planete in particular. This same theme is often seen in classical litteracy.

amrita828 wrote: A true comparison is hard because the history of Japan is so very different from ours - with ours meaning the western countries, which have common cultural roots. There has been a feminist movement - "Tatakau onnatachi" (women who fight) - since the end of the XIX century, but the war changed their society drastically. The word "housewife" was unkown in Japan until it was imported from the States after WWII. But women had only then the right to vote and to be recognized as individuals. Since then things have changed a lot, but until today women are "encouraged" to leave their job as soon as they marry.
To this, add the fact that the individualistic structure of society is one of the main differences between our countries even today. The Japanese society is based upon collectivity, mutual help inside groups of people, villages, city quarters and so on. Following the footsteps of the States (again), in recent years the conservative party has started to complain about the loss of the old value of family, implying that women are the ones most responsible for this.
This means that feminism is still a present word in Japan and even among the political parties the movement is still active today.
It's a complex situation.

This said, we are different in the big picture of things, but not in the detailed one. There's more talk about virginity now in our countries then there ever was at the end of last century and there is not one politician who doesn't bring up the "value" of traditional family to gain consensus. To go back to the world of dramas, Asian produce a lot but we westeners - mostly women - watch and love them too, more and more, hence doing nothing to oppose certain views on the role of women in society. We seem to be oddly attracted to this uneven romances which are reminiscent of centuries past.
Needless to say, I use "we" as a practical generalization, not to say we are all the same. :)

Very well informed response. I guess I'm a little unclear about the scope of the Tatakau onnatachi movement. There have always been women who stood up against social norms since Lilith. It's true that the war drastically changed Japanese culture, but Japan has always been a very traditional society. And their modern era traditional social structure was/is based on the subjugation of various groups of people including women. I think this is true of traditional social structures around the world. I also think its important to recognize that Japan is really really old and has a very small landmass. I think this has a large impact on how their social interactions have evolved.

The War greatly changed feminism in the US. I would argue that women did not obtain large scale access to independence and agency until after the War. I think the position of women now is radically improved compared to the pre-War era, despite the efforts of the conservative movement. There are many factors that would contribute to a more restricted feminist movement in Japan that are not specific to gender issues. You mentioned the value of maintaining harmony within the group, which directly opposes social revolution. Another contributor is the simultaneous acceptance and rejection of things associated with an invading power (the West).

As for the existence of the word "housewife" in Japanese, you are more knowledgeable about languages than I am, but there is a japanese word that does not come from english for a married woman who stays home and takes care of the house. Also, one of the most common words for husband means head of household. Another etymological note is: if a social group is not practically or theoretically relevant, then the word for that group will not be popular. So a reason why "housewife" may not have existed could be because "married woman" was equivalent. "Housewife" wouldn't be a necessary word unless there was a need to distinguish between married women who were housewives and married women who were not.

I also want to add,
1) adhering to traditional gender roles restricts men in addition to women, and
2) I use the phase "feminist movement" very generally in this post because there could be an entire thread dedicated to identifying the different schools of feminist thought.

Kawaikochan wrote: did you see amrita's post in the zenkai girl thread? She also pointed out that typical scenario and how role reversal (with the female being the mean one) gets a different response.

After seeing this brought up twice, I decided to look at my top 4 favorite dramas again. They are Love Shuffle, Tsubasa no Oreta Tenshitachi, Marumo no Okite, and Yuusha Yoshihikoto to Maou no Shiro. Only one of those is in the romance genre (Love Shuffle). It had 4 main male characters: a mean one, an aloof one, a "nice guy," and this guy who would do anything for his gf. I don't think it really fit the mean guy/sweet girl formula. Tsubasa was similar. The guy in Marumo was an absolute sweetheart, so he definitely didn't fit the mold. And Yuusha doesn't have a love story. So, I think I may not share the same preferences as most jdrama addicts (or maybe the addicts like me aren't as vocal).

I mentioned Domuyoji (HYD) as an example of a mean guy. In end, I didn't care if they ended up together because I didn't like the female lead. Another example also came to mind: Kurosagi. I was rooting for him, even though he was kinda mean, but I didn't want him and the female lead to get together. I thought he was a much better match for her best friend, who definitely had her dark streak.

I actually thought that he and the female lead suited each other. They sort of balanced each other. He needed her to help keep his moral compass in check, and she needed him to show her that not everything in life is black and white, there are shades of grey. I don't know, that's just how I interpreted it.

amrita828 wrote: I agree with this 100%. I too thought they completed each other well.
I'm glad they did not concentrate on the romantic aspect though. I consider myself a romantic, but I don't need to see two people getting together in every drama.
I just wished the movie had brought up some sort of closure for the revenge issue, but either I'm not clever enough to understand its symbolism, or the movie was just a weird cocktail of nonsense meant to give the fans some closeups of a broody, mysterious Yamapi.

I haven't seen the movie yet. It didn't tie up all the loose ends of the story?