You and I have diametrically opposite views on this matter.HeadInTheClouds:
We do have different takes on this topic. Although (forever the contrarian) to be diametrically opposed I think I'd have to take the view that TSJ and XY's decision was 100% morally right and not selfish at all. Hopefully it's clear that that's not my position. ^^
Even though my view is still not as black-and-white as yours, you've raised many good points and given me a lot of food for thought, which I've enjoyed. But to avoid going in circles I think this might be a good point to agree to not completely agree?
5 days agoplor20:
AH :
Considering that XY and Jing end up in a similar setup as to how they met at the beginning of the story is itself tragic, albeit subtly
I feel like I'm missing something here. Can you elaborate?
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. One of the things that is important to me when analyzing character development is how authors deal with character relationship dynamics.
At the beginning, you meet XY and Jing as savior/patient—XY nursing him back to life. Then their relationship slowly shifts to a savior/servant dynamic. XY and Jing share a home with mismatched people, to which XY and Jing considered lost to their families.
In the end, XY and Jing return to a similar dynamic. Jing is extremely ill and weak; XY has to care for and nurse him. They disappear into the wilderness with their mismatched family, becoming lost to their families once again.
Their environmental circumstances come full circle. The difference is that, by the closure of the circle, it was their choice to leave their families. Yet, the issue at hand is that both XY and Jing don't experience significant character development. They don't resolve their deep internal issues. They begin and continue to maintain their relationship based on fear—one of losing the other while the other is afraid of abandonment. Their relationship doesn't move past codependency.
TH ends the story almost similarly to how it began with their relationship dynamics. I guess to some, they may interpret this as if XY and Jing are “destined” to be together. But for me, it really just goes to prove TH’s deliberate portrayal of their lack of growth.
That makes sense. Thanks for elaborating!
2 days ago
AH :
THIS!!!
Few words, big actions. Darcy. Dignity. Deep feelings internally vs. a restrained exterior.
All of that. 100%
Something that we agree wholeheartedly on. I need some rec for shows/books with Darcy or XL-like characters. Besides Darcy, my other Austen's favourite is Captain Wenthworth. His letter to Anne at the end. The line, "For you alone, I think and plan" *sigh*. My teenage literature crush was Blythe Gilbert from Anne of Green Gable. I haven't re-read those novels for a long time. I wonder if I will still feel the same way as I did back then.
I LOVED Anne and Gilbert! And the Megan Fellows adaptation was one of the few situations where I loved both the books and the adaptation.
AH :
But I find major plot point differences actually help with the mental separation, so all the changes in S2, as much as I don't like most of them, sort of help serve as a reminder that it's just not the same story so I shouldn't worry too much about details that don't feel "true" to the novel version of the story.
The issue for me is that if they change it so much that it changes the essence of the story and the characters, I get really annoyed. Lol. I'm OK if you want to make changes so that it can be adapted, but what's the point if the characters no longer resemble themselves?
Lol, we're back to different views. Bigger changes are more tolerable because then it's just a different guy. Like Peter Parker and Miles Morales are both spiderman, but totally different versions. So in circumstances where Miles doesn't act like Peter and only has the more general characteristics of spiderman, it's fine.
Although, that said, I will admit that when Ella Enchanted was finally adapted into a movie I was a bit devastated when they made it a musical comedy. Not that the movie itself is bad. I had just really been hoping to see a movie that was much closer in tone to the novel.
Cang Xuan would have tried to get Xiao Yao and himself out of there and dragged Xiao Yao's body to every doctor he could find to try and find a solution. Even if it's out of delusion, I'll take that never-say-died attitude (within a reasonable limit) over Jing's sitting there waiting to die any day.
I can't help but think how disturbing it would be if CX did drag XY's actual, 100% dead corpse around like that. ^^" ...
And that's one of my issues with this entire thing. Jing got lucky. Jing inadvertently helped save Xiao Yao. If Cang Xuan's people hadn't come, his action would have meant squat (just a plot device really). I just find it really hard to give him credit when he gave in to his helplessness and got lucky.
I'm struggling to see the difference between TSJ on the one hand and CX and his people on the other here.
TSJ transferred spiritual power to XY continuously even though she appeared to be dead and all hope seemed to be lost. It was lucky that he did so, because it helped keep her alive long enough for CX's people to arrive.
CX's people transferred spiritual power to XY continuously even though she appeared to be dead and all hope seemed to be lost. It was lucky that they did so, because it helped keep her alive long enough for XL to arrive.
Seems pretty same-same to me.
AH :
I feel rather lucky. I can't think of anyone in my life who fits this description. Maybe that's why his ineptitude doesn't bother me quite as much?
Let's hope that you never have to AH. The trick with these kind of people is to have very clear boundary with them. Don't take on their problems as your own; let them solve their problems. Beware of your sympathy for them; that's how they suck you in.
I feel like maybe it's just that I have a very low tolerance for people who are draining to be around? I'm quick to cut or minimize contact. I only want to spend my social battery on people who are actually pleasant to be around.
If some people's dislike and criticisms of TSJ are partly driven by TSJ fans making statements like that or by frustration about TSJ getting to live and getting to be with the woman he loves (unlike XL, CX and Feng Long) despite all of his flaws, I can understand that.AH :
For me, from the beginning, I didn't care for Jing as a character, because I found him shady and because I've had experience with people like Jing. The YaoJing claims of perfection, et al only irritated and heightened that feeling.
Jing ending up rewarded with the happy ending that he wanted at the end is annoying, but I struggle more with what exactly Tong Hua is saying by that ending? It seems at odds with what is going on in the rest of the book. Tong Hua says that there is more things than love, and that it isn't the most important thing in life -- and yet, the only character that espouses that, is the only one that is rewarded?
This made me think of the scene where the Grand Emperor speaks to TSJ after XY's identity as his daughter has just been irrefutably confirmed. The moment his relationship with XY (and therefor, his position as someone entitled to question the man hanging around her) is established, he turns to TSJ and asks him about his engagement, and literally makes TSJ sweat.
That is exactly the scene I was thinking about for Daddy Emperor. One of my favs in the drama. lol! But we also see CX has the same opinion. Even XL calls Jing out on his relationship and treatment of his 'sister.' Heck, people in the street didn't like the way Jing was arguing with FFYY in the street when they went to buy a dagger as present for someone.
For as long as XY was unable to escape from her noble identity (first as Eldest Princess Gao Xing Jiu Yao and later on as Lady Xiling Jiao Yao, who remained the beloved granddaughter of the Yellow Emperor and cousin of the Black Emperor), TSJ needed to retain the status of a Tushan Clan member, future Tushan Clan leader, or present Tushan Clan leader in order to be with XY.
I disagree. FFB wasn't any of those things, had a tarnished reputation, and yet he spent large chunks of time with XY, with the approval of all her family. And if the alleged script is to be believed, he would have even been welcomed as her husband.
Also, Jing said he'd be fine with being her servant, so he could have easily been with her in that status as long as she was a princess. Alternatively, if we are talking about hypotheticals, someone as allegedly smart and crafty, with all his experience and connections of being a merchant prince, should have been able to remake his life and be successful on his own, especially given he manifested as a 9 tailed fox. He could have easily started a cadet branch or his own merchant clan.
As for not being able to escape that fate and needing permission of emperors ... well, they both said she could marry whoever she wanted ... except XL. Grandaddy Emperor even volunteered to kill off FFYY and all the Fang Feng clan if she really wanted Jing. I also think, given XY could have escaped from either kingdom, if she really wanted to. It wasn't just her shape shifting that hid her for centuries, and it isn't like she couldn't have found another way to shape shift, if she wanted to. And after XY transformed her, she had an ocean to hide in, if she wanted to.
Helping CX is the only thing that he needed to be Tushan Jing for ... and again, that wasn't something she asked of Jing. It was CX that asked XY to do.
But my point remains. Jing didn't talk to XY and made the decision on his own to retain his status, and not become 17, like he had promised XY.
I mean, from the beginning, Jing lied about almost everything about himself and what he would do, and yet he's honest?Kokuto:
In most of the cases where TSJ said he would do something and then ended up not doing it, the novel makes it clear that he intended to and thought he would be able to do that thing at the time that he said he would do it... so I wouldn't necessarily point to those as evidence of dishonesty.
TSJ was also more open and honest about his feelings for WXL/XY than CX and XL. Maybe that's what they're referring to?
Or maybe they are thinking of all the times where TSJ hit a barrier and told XY honestly about it? Not something he did all the time (he failed to tell XY about the pregnancy before she found out another way), but something he did do relatively consistently.
For example, the claim that Jing gave up everything for XY. Well, that is just objectively wrong. He SAID he'd give up things, but he never actually committed the action of giving up anything. Almost everything he allegedly gave up was actually taken from him. Even though I agree that Jing abandoned his nephew / son, it was another passive decision that came about because of the actions of others. I mean, if someone steals your motorcycle, did you actually give it up cause your girl friend asked? No. You didn't give it up. You held onto it, until it was taken away from you.
That's a good point. He didn't cut ties with his grandmother or TSH. His grandmother died and FFYY killed TSH. And TSH and CX took away the life that TSJ had as of chapter 42, including his wealth, status and power as clan leader. When he returned in chapter 49 (thanks to XL), he could have reclaimed those things, but chose not to. The only part of his previous life that he reclaimed was being with XY. He passively accepted the loss of everything else.
The adjective honest was used to describe how he directly confessed to XY. He was also the first one to do so in a romantic way. When he became TJ again and had chances to describe his feelings to XY, he did. Unlike Cangxuan or XL (though both had their own reasons).Elektraa:
I thought that might be it!
IMO, all three of them had good reasons to hide their feelings. TSJ was just the only to ignore them, and (IMO) to be encouraged, to a certain extent, to do so by WXL/XY.
TSJ was engaged and not able to easily extract himself from the Tushan clan in order to be with WXL.
CX prioritized the throne and chose to marry many wives to further his political interests, even after he came to know that XY wouldn't consider being with a man if she wasn't his one and only woman.
XL was already committed to Gong Gong and the Sheng Nong remnant army and couldn't promise forever or to always put WXL/XY first.
It becomes a willful misinterpretation when someone blatantly ignores and invalidates everything the creator has presented. For example, I once got into an argument with someone on Facebook (OP) whose counterargument was that I was incorporating too much of my cultural background and attaching meaning to it. I was genuinely baffled by this because that's how I was taught to critically analyze art:
What, why, when, how, where.
How I interact with the piece through my lens of thought.
Its relation to general overarching popular culture and personal experiences.
Past artworks, literature, history, etc.
I seriously began to doubt my approach to art. I even lost sleep over it because she was so harsh; she completely invalidated all my training as an artist.
There was another instance where the same OP claimed that the scene where FFB was reflected in XY's eyes was just her being surprised to see someone resembling XL. My brain nearly exploded. No director, cinematographer, or author would pay that much attention to a reflection in the eyes, demanding the CGI department to meticulously create a slow-motion scene just to show XY recognizing XL. Come on! The eyes are the windows to the soul. They are precious for human sight. This scene depicted XY falling in love with FFB for the first time and foreshadowed that he would become the apple of her eye, her most precious person, hidden deep in her soul.
But you would have to be literate beyond reading and writing to understand this.
Just my two cents here, but IMO the existence of multiple interpretations is not a problem.
Sure, there are some basic elements of the story that are irrefutable and not open to interpretation. But that factual framework is just the bottom layer.
We can take what the writer, screen writer, director, actor or any other person involved in the creative process tells us about the story to help us form our interpretations. But like the base story itself, only parts of that information will be objective and a lot of it will be open to interpretation.
We can also read between the lines and make educated guesses or simply speculate about the creators' intentions, but when we do so those guesses and speculations are not objective facts.
We can examine every element of the story and its trimmings (e.g., the novel covers and posters) for additional information to further inform our interpretations. Again, most of what we derive from these sources will not be irrefutable, objective facts. But ideally they will be evidence-backed educated guesses.
When we piece all of those things together to form our own interpretation, that interpretation will inevitably be subjective. And if someone else takes most of that information and forms a different interpretation? Not a problem. Those differences could be discussed, and doing so may or may not be a rewarding experience, but even if that ends with both fans still having different interpretations, that only has to be a problem that bothers you if you let it. You can decide to not worry about other peoples' different interpretations.
Anyway, sorry to take this thread off-topic with industry chatter, I usually keep that confined to the other thread about TJC lol.atmospheres:
<3 <3 <3!
Nothing wrong with the occasional off topic tangent, but the effort to generally sort posts into the right thread is definitely appreciated! ^^
The confession happened in the Dragon Bone Prison, and was it really honest? I mean, why did he confess? Because he knew XY's life was about to change and everyone was going to know she was a woman, so he would have competition, in a field he didn't feel he had a chance in.
At the point where TSJ confessed his feelings to WXL, he knew she was a woman and he might have guessed that her true identity was likely to be exposed now that they had been captured, but he didn't *know* that that would definitely happen and he also didn't *know* that she would return to a female form.
As for why he confessed then, honestly I felt like WXL intentionally prompted him and then waited for the confession, expecting it to come.
-----
Chapter 8:
Shi Qi quietly held Xiao Liu and Xiao Liu quietly listened to his heartbeat. In this place of death, separated from the world’s enticements and entanglements, it made the complicated relationship between a man and a woman so very simple. It was just him and her. Xiao Liu suddenly felt right being here and that was calming.
Xiao Liu said, “How about we never leave here.”
“Fine.”
“What’s fine?”
“It’s fine staying here.”
“What’s fine about it?”
“Just you. And me.”
Xiao Liu laughed knowing that Shi Qi also understood. There was so much that made life complicated purely due to circumstance. The old married couple living in the far off secluded mountains, they were actually the envy of so many who live glamorous lives of conflict.
Xiao Liu asked, “Shi Qi, are you so good to me because you are repaying a debt?”
Shi Qi’s body stiffened and he said nothing for a long time. Xiao Liu was leaning on him so could feel his heart beating so fast it might burst out of his chest. Xiao Liu casually added, “I saved you, let you stay for 6 years, and now you’ve done everything and more for me. When we get out, we’re really even. You don’t need to worry anymore, I will never go ask you for anything and get you in trouble. I promise to stay far, far away from you……”
Xiao Liu’s mouth was suddenly shut by Shi Qi’s hand. Xiao Liu struggled but Shi Qi wouldn’t release his hand. Finally Xiao Liu naughtily licked the center of his palm with his tongue and Shi Qi was like being hit with an electric shock and released him. Xiao Liu was also shocked by what he just did and his mouth was gaping open and his entire face was flaming red.
The two of them remained frozen in silence.
Finally, Shi Qi spoke. “I won’t leave you.”
“Why? Why not leave? Because of gratitude? I told you that you’ve repaid it.”
Shi Qi didn’t answer and stubbornly repeated, “I won’t leave you.”
“What? Do you want to stay with me for the rest of your life then?”
Shi Qi was silent for a moment and then said with absolute certainty, “My entire life.”
Xiao Liu sighed. “I’m a man. Don’t you think you’re being weird?”
This time Shi Qi’s response was immediate, “You’re a girl.”
Xiao Liu actually felt Shi Qi had known for a long time that she was a girl, but how did Shi Qi know? “Why are you so certain? Even Xiang Liu being that smart can’t be absolutely certain I’m a girl.”
...
Shi Qi slowly spoke. “From birth I was the prized child, the perfect one.
...
I finally understood that other than the expensive clothes on me, I was nothing. That was when he succeeded in completely destroying me. He tossed me in the river not even bothering to kill me because he knew he killed me inside already. I floated for a long time until I was laying in the logs. I knew I would die like this, and all I wanted was to feel the sunlight one more time. So struggled to climb towards the sun and then passed out knowing that I wouldn’t see another sun and wouldn’t wake up again. But the Heavens, let you appear…..”
Xiao Liu had long forgotten to be angry and slowly turned around and rested her head on Shi Qi’s shoulder to listen to him talk. Shi Qi’s forehead was resting on Xiao Liu’s hair. “I couldn’t open my eyes so I couldn’t see you. I could only sense. You didn’t want me to be afraid so you told me your name. You didn’t want me to be shamed so you told me jokes. You lightly wiped away my sweat and held me in your embrace and washed my hair which hadn’t been washed in three years. I knew how disgusting and horrific my body was, but you treated it like a treasure and tended to it with care. The three years of torture and degradation, the body even I couldn’t face and I couldn’t bear to walk out the door. That day you helped me bathe and when you saw my body you blushed beet red. In that instant I was truly reborn. In your eyes, I was still a man…..a man who affected you…”
Xiao Liu yelled, “Don’t you dare say another word!”
Shi Qi’s eyes misted with tears and it splashed on Xiao Liu’s hair, but his voice was filled with mirth. “When you carried me out of the tub, you didn’t even dare look directly at me before placing me on the pallet. You ran off even before you were done talking. How could I ever think you were a man?”
Xiao Liu hit him on the chest and groused, “You are so sneaky! And here I thought you were the most honest! I was hoodwinked!”
Shi Qi continued. “That day, I put on my clothes and walked out the door, standing under the sun feeling the outdoors I hadn’t seen in a long time. In the eyes of others it was just a normal thing to do, but to me it was a rebirth and a new chance. Xiao Liu, I decided right then and there that I would never leave you.”
Xiao Liu said, “A reborn phoenix must first be incinerated. But you cannot ever escape your past as Tu Shan Jing.”
...
“Xiao Liu, when I see you, I have no hatred and vengeance in my heart, only gratitude. I am grateful the Heavens let me live, let me have a still whole body, let my eyes still see, so that I can see you pretend to be stupid, let my ears hear, so that I can hear you complain, let my hands still work, so that I can help you dry your hair, let my legs still move, so that I can carry you. Xiao Liu, I don’t want revenge, I just want to be Ye Shi Qi.”
Xiao Liu lowered her head.
Shi Qi said, “I don’t want to go back because my brother is very capable and much more ruthless than me. He’s actually a more suitable leader of the clan than me. If he’s there, the family will be fine. As long as there is no Tu Shan Jing, then Tu Shan Hou will be the best. But that day I went with you to the jewelry store without knowing it belonged to the family. Jing Ye recognized me and the entire store saw me, word would soon get back to my brother that I was alive. I don’t want revenge, and I want even less to be Tu Shan Jing, but once my brother knows he will hunt me down no matter where I go. I was afraid he would hurt you and Lao Mu and them so I had to go back to being Tu Shan Jing. If I am in the open, then my brother will know where his target is and not aim wildly.”
Xiao Liu sighed. “You don’t want to hurt him but he wants to hurt you. For your own safety you ought to kill him, but if you do you can’t have a peace of mind. His death is an instant release but you’ll carry the guilt your whole life. I guess you really can’t kill him.”
Shi Qi was so happy. “I knew you would understand and support me. Jing Ye and them cannot understand why I don’t want revenge.”
Xiao Liu said, “I’m different than you. You are kind, I am practical.”
Shi Qi said in a low voice, “You are being practical for my own good.”
Xiao Liu huffed but said nothing.
Shi Qi’s breathing was erratic and his heartbeat was also fast. Xiao Liu knew what he wanted to say but was embarrassed to say. So she didn’t rush and instead nestled like a cat on his shoulder waiting patiently.
“Xiao Liu….I……I know I am engaged and have no right to say this to you…..and I never dared to….but…….I will call off the engagement, I will call off the engagement! You wait for me for twenty years….no…..no, fifteen years. You give Tu Shan Jing fifteen years, and after fifteen years I’ll give you back a Ye Shi Qi.”
Xiao Liu asked, “How do you want me to wait?”
“You…..you won’t let another man……into your heart.”
Xiao Liu was silent.
In the darkness, Shi Qi couldn’t see Xiao Liu’s expression and he was so nervous he forgot to breathe.
Xiao Liu suddenly burst out laughing and Shi Qi didn’t know if her laughter was mocking him for daring or….
Xiao Liu said, “You, you really don’t know me at all. My heart is cold and there is a hard shell encasing it. Forget fifteen years, likely in fifty years there won’t be a man who goes inside.”
Shi Qi asked, “So you’re agreeing? Let’s make a palm promise.”
Xiao Liu lazily raised her palm and Shi Qi felt where it was and then solemnly pressed his palm on hers. After they joined palms, he didn’t release and instead tightly held her hand. “Xiao Liu, I’m, I’m so happy.” His voice was quivering as his heart soared.
Xiao Liu couldn’t help but smile. “You said everything boils down to a business transaction, so why do I feel like I’m not getting the better end of the bargain here?”
Shi Qi shook her hand. “That doesn’t include love, only love can never be measured by profit or loss. Family love, sibling love, friendship love, romantic love, it seems so easy but is a rare treasure that cannot be bought with any amount of money.”
Xiao Liu giggled, “They say Tu Shan Jing is a shrewd businessman and great at conversation. I didn’t believe it since you’re always so stupid looking around me and rarely talking. Today I finally believe it.”
Shi Qi laughed lightly and his laughter was just like his personality – gentle, peaceful, pure.
Xiao Liu said, “Shi Qi, I’m not like you. I’m not a businessman but I know that I am a ruthless person. I am ruthless towards others and even more ruthless towards myself. Do you know that?”
“I do.”
Xiao Liu laughed. “Do you really?”
Shi Qi said, “I know you never give yourself hope so you don’t trust first and won’t give first. You have a true heart but if the other doesn’t appreciate it, then you won’t give it. I’m willing to wait, wait until you’re willing to hope.”
“What if in my entire lifetime I’m not willing?”
“Then I’ll wait an entire lifetime. As long as you don’t disappear, then even if it’s an entire lifetime it will still be happy.” Shi Qi smiled – Xiao Liu was ruthless and cold to herself, but to everyone else in her life she was so good. Lao Mu, Chuan Zi, Mai Zi, Xan Tian Er, these people were just passing by in her life yet she gave them everything they needed for their own lives.
Darkness like death, silence like death, the most infamous jail cell in the vast wilderness made any prisoner seek death, but to Shi Qi and Xiao Liu, as they talked they didn’t even feel like time was passing.
HeadInTheClouds:
Anyway. Hope you have fun hanging around. We are a friendly and reasonable bunch :-)
Yep. We don't always agree with each other, but we're fine with a variety of opinions.
Love this. ^^
39 minutes ago
AH :
If some people's dislike and criticisms of TSJ are partly driven by TSJ fans making statements like that or by frustration about TSJ getting to live and getting to be with the woman he loves (unlike XL, CX and Feng Long) despite all of his flaws, I can understand that.
For me, from the beginning, I didn't care for Jing as a character, because I found him shady and because I've had experience with people like Jing. The YaoJing claims of perfection, et al only irritated and heightened that feeling.
That makes sense.
Jing ending up rewarded with the happy ending that he wanted at the end is annoying, but I struggle more with what exactly Tong Hua is saying by that ending? It seems at odds with what is going on in the rest of the book. Tong Hua says that there is more things than love, and that it isn't the most important thing in life -- and yet, the only character that espouses that, is the only one that is rewarded?
The way I look at it, Tong Hua's favourite character spent decades orchestrating the ending he wanted, and he got it the way he wanted it. All of it. Every part of his plan was successful, and he knew that every other part was successful before he met his end (the last part of the plan and the ending that he described as the "best" ending). TSJ getting to live and ending up with XY was one piece of that perfectly executed plan, a piece that was the result of decades worth of effort all on its own.
XL didn't compromise his loyalty or other values. He knew that XY loved him (thanks to the Lovers' Bugs) but also managed to shield her from a significant portion of the pain of losing him. He gave her all the things he set out to give her. And he got the ending that he wanted. I imagine he was satisfied.
CX's ending seems fitting, given the choices he made.
I'm not overly fussed about whether TSJ and XY deserved their not-tragic ending or not. I care more about how their ending was made possible by XL's sacrifice. I want them to make the most of it to make sure that his sacrifice was not wasted.
AH :
For as long as XY was unable to escape from her noble identity (first as Eldest Princess Gao Xing Jiu Yao and later on as Lady Xiling Jiao Yao, who remained the beloved granddaughter of the Yellow Emperor and cousin of the Black Emperor), TSJ needed to retain the status of a Tushan Clan member, future Tushan Clan leader, or present Tushan Clan leader in order to be with XY.
I disagree. FFB wasn't any of those things, had a tarnished reputation, and yet he spent large chunks of time with XY, with the approval of all her family. And if the alleged script is to be believed, he would have even been welcomed as her husband.
FFB was not a Tushan Clan member, future Tushan Clan leader, or present Tushan Clan leader, but he was a Fang Feng Clan member. In the hierarchy of deity statuses, FFB held a low noble status, but a low noble status is still far above no status.
IMO, "with the approval of all her family" is overstating it a bit. CX was not a fan and specifically mentioned FFB's reputation as a playboy, his concubine-born status and lack of political power as detractors.
According to the leaked script, the Grand Emperor was willing to support XY marrying FFB after they had already seemingly eloped in front of the whole world. At that point, it seemed like the choices available to the Grand Emperor were either to support XY's "choice" or denounce her (as his court was demanding). There's no universe where YSQ would have done the same (forced an elopement or similarly massive scandal) in order to force a similar outcome. And of course XY is not present in that scene. If she faced a similar situation with the Grand Emperor supporting her choice to marry YSQ and the rest of the Gao Xing court vehemently opposing it, would XY definitely have proceeded? Or might she reconsider out of concern about destabilizing the court and putting her father at risk?
And if YSQ became an enemy of the Tushan clan, and perhaps the other noble clans, when he cut ties with the Tushan clan, then in addition to having a lower status than FFB he might also have posed a greater danger to XY than FFB. The Grand Emperor would have been much less likely to support a marriage that put XY's safety at risk.
And that's without even getting into whether CX would have approved of either match. Let's assume the Yellow Emperor would probably be okay with it.
-----
Chapter 16:
Even Zhuan Xu teased her. “I just got you back and want you around a few more years. Don’t get lured off by that Fang Feng family playboy.”
Xiao Yao stuck her tongue out at him. “As long as he can shoot you with an arrow, I’ll never run away with him.”
...
Xiao Yao said, “Fang Feng Bei is waiting for me, I need to go.”
Zhuan Xu paused and said, “Fang Feng Bei is concubine born and he has no real power in the Fang Feng family. You can play with him but…..don’t end things with Jing yet. I need him right now.”
-----
Chapter 33:
Xiao Yao smiled and put her face right next to his. “Still angry?”
Zhuan Xu coolly said, “I’m not angry.” On the day Xiao Yao was supposed to get married, he sat alone in the phoenix tree forest surrounded by silence and desolation. When he heard Xiao Yao ran away from her wedding, his eyes lit up in uncontrollable joy.
“Feng Long…..”
Zhuan Xu said, “I’m here, so you don’t need to worry about him. From now on, just think of him as someone with no connection to you.”
“I feel like I wronged him.”
“No need. I already compensated him and all he’ll have to endure is a few months of gossip. It’s hard to endure now, but when he’s in possession of great power and his beauties in his arm, the world will forget that joke of a wedding.”
Xiao Yao quizzically stared. “I left you with such a mess to clean up and I thought you would be furious with me!” In the past when she left to play with Fang Feng Bei for a few days’ time, Zhuan Xu would be pissed at her for days afterwards.
Also, Jing said he'd be fine with being her servant, so he could have easily been with her in that status as long as she was a princess.
As far as I can recall, all of XY's servants were female. When Left Ear became her bodyguard, she got CX's approval first. He was the Emperor and she was living in his palace at the time.
If at any point in the story (after XY regained her true identity) TSJ had cut all ties with the Tushan clan in order to become status-less YSQ and then tried to become XY's servant in whichever palace she was living in at the time, I find it difficult to imagine the Grand Emperor or CX giving his approval for YSQ to be her servant. The Yellow Emperor might have, if XY and YSQ got lucky with the timing before CX took the throne.
Alternatively, if we are talking about hypotheticals, someone as allegedly smart and crafty, with all his experience and connections of being a merchant prince, should have been able to remake his life and be successful on his own, especially given he manifested as a 9 tailed fox. He could have easily started a cadet branch or his own merchant clan.
Yu Shin was a wealthy jewelry store owner and merchant with significant influence in QS Town (chapter 4: "As one would see it, Yu Shin was like half the authority in Qing Shui Town."). With that status, he could not even ask for an audience with TSJ. He could only ask to meet with TSJ's servant, Jing Ye (chapter 33: "Yu Shin told her, “My position cannot ask to see the clan leader directly, luckily I have a connection with his maid Jing Ye so we can ask to see her first.”").
Presumably even the most successful of merchants would not have had sufficient status to guarantee that they would be able to meet and regularly spend time with a twice-royal princess like Eldest Princess Gao Xing Jiao Yao, or even just a once-royal noble lady like Lady Xiling Jiao Yao.
As for not being able to escape that fate and needing permission of emperors ... well, they both said she could marry whoever she wanted ... except XL. Grandaddy Emperor even volunteered to kill off FFYY and all the Fang Feng clan if she really wanted Jing.
Same notes as above.
I also think, given XY could have escaped from either kingdom, if she really wanted to. It wasn't just her shape shifting that hid her for centuries, and it isn't like she couldn't have found another way to shape shift, if she wanted to. And after XY transformed her, she had an ocean to hide in, if she wanted to.
In chapter 30, XY wanted to leave but her father would not let her go.
Her undetectable transformation, which was only possible thanks to the Face Forming Flower, was essential to XY's ability to hide her true identity for ~180 years.
I would not assume that XY could have found another way to transform (without being detected by powerful demons and deities) if she wanted to.
After XL's blood transfusions, XY could breathe under water and swim faster than a dolphin. YSQ could not. Even with a demon fish gem, his ability to breathe under water would be time-limited and nothing in the novel suggests that he would have been able to swim fast enough to escape from any pursuers. And as far as I can recall, TSJ was not aware of XY's enhanced abilities during the course of the novel. I assume he would have found out about them after he and XY went to the ocean at the end of the novel.
Helping CX is the only thing that he needed to be Tushan Jing for ... and again, that wasn't something she asked of Jing. It was CX that asked XY to do.
CX asked XY to meet with TSJ because CX needed TSJ's help, and in that sense it was something that CX asked XY to do.
But it was also definitely something that XY asked of TSJ.
And even before XY asked, it was already something that TSJ wanted to do because he believed that CX was the right person to become ruler and it was something that he wanted to do in order to help XY with her goal of helping CX.
-----
Chapter 16:
But she didn’t come back just now for Jing, she came back because of Zhuan Xu! Xiao Yao felt this pressure in her heart, was her relationship with Jing also subject to being used? Xiao Yao said, “Do you remember promising me not to hurt Xuan?”
“Yes.”
“I don’t know what my Gege wants to do, but if it doesn’t harm Tu Shan clan, can you help him a little?”
Jing warmly said, “If it’s this request, you need not even ask. I actually came with Feng Long this time to discuss something with Zhuan Xu.”
But my point remains. Jing didn't talk to XY and made the decision on his own to retain his status, and not become 17, like he had promised XY.
TSJ told XY one of his reasons for retaining his status and not becoming YSQ in chapter 14, and XY realized another reason on her own in that conversation.
In chapter 23, TSJ was determined to be with XY even if that meant going against his grandmother and leaving the clan, but then his grandmother used her pain and limited remaining time to live to force his hand. After that happened, TSJ immediately flew to Sheng Nong mountain through a thunderstorm in the middle of the night in order to tell XY what had happened and that he could not reject the clan leader position any longer.
From the perspective of XY, Jing indeed gave the most cute and feathery moments. Jing and XY's love story used a lot of youthful scene direction. Not only that, a lot of their one-on-one dialogue was very "I'll stay by your side forever. I'll do anything for you." "Promise?", "Promise.". It's storybook because Jing really believes he could give up everything and things would go his way just because he wants them to. What's most important: XY believed that. Promising to wait 15 years for somebody but also still pouty with jealousy at every turn is very rom com. Queue Jing coming to make it up to her and the cycle repeats. They both are happily living in a fantasy though XY waits for the other shoe to drop. I agree that it's surface level but at the end of the day XY is allowing herself to follow that fantasy. She has hopeful pessimism.
Your take on their romantic relationship is interesting, as I've long thought that XY was acting out what she thought was supposed to be a romance with Jing, because her behavior and actions are so different from WXL. She's never had a romance that we know of, much less one as woman, and appeared to getting her knowledge of romance from a book or stories from others. So, from that point, I do agree in part, that they were attempting a storybook romance, but I think we may still mean different things by that phrase.
That said, it was a fantasy and it promoted or expressed ideas that weren't about fluffy love but obsession, like killing yourself over losing a love; or jealousy that manifests as following someone without their knowledge and hiding in the bushes watching them interact with other men -- all while you are committed to another woman; or keeping your meetings with your girlfriend secret with promises to get divorced as soon as he gets the consent of his wife. XY also had her issues. I don't think any of that is an example of a mature love nor is it healthy.
Now, whether Jing or XY actually believed that ... is arguable. Jing was aware of the difficulties, but he told XY what she wanted to hear and repeatedly asked XY for another chance. XY would give him repeated chances, but given her lack of involvement / committment, it ended up looking like she was testing him, waiting for him to fail again -- or as you said, hopeful pessimism waiting for the other shoe to drop.
To be fair, I do think Jing often intended well, but as XY said, he had no ability to carry through. But Jing also was selfish in his feelings for XY. He pinned much of his self worth on her, and so was desperate to keep her affections no matter what, even though he knew it was wrong. He even admits this a few times.
That's why I still find what they had fulfilling and storybook because for a brief moment, they got to experience a wispy relationship and enjoy those moments for what it was until the other shoe actually dropped ( the surprise pregnancy). I find their romance fulfilling also because I saw a lack of depth from both of them. For where they currently were mentally and emotionally, the romance was fine. Jing still needs to face his family and XY still needs to deal with her trauma around abandonment. I think they were perfect for each other in the moment because neither were ready to unpack their baggage in a meaningful way. Truly, only Xuan and XL were realistic about how their feelings merged with their current situations.
Again this sounds more like kids playacting a romance, without understanding the consequences or considering others, or even each other. There was a quote someone posted here a while back where Jing is called on his situation, and he didn't understand that in striving to be polite to FFYY, he was hurting XY's feelings. I don't know. This just doesn't feel fullfilling to me. Maybe because I'm not really feeling the love, but instead I'm feeling two desperate co-dependent people.
But thank you for the insight. It makes more sense to me than the idea that this relationship is deep and meaningful and not a fantasy. I'll have to think on it more.
There was another instance where the same OP claimed that the scene where FFB was reflected in XY's eyes was just her being surprised to see someone resembling XL. My brain nearly exploded. No director, cinematographer, or author would pay that much attention to a reflection in the eyes, demanding the CGI department to meticulously create a slow-motion scene just to show XY recognizing XL. Come on!
Yes, director choices give you an idea about what they are trying to convey to the audience.
This makes me think about how, for me, part of comprehending/interpreting involves considering the author's choices. The author could have chosen to write a character/situation in any number of ways, but why did they choose A instead of B, C, D or E? If we use the character of Jing for example. The 37-year situation, instead of what we got, if the author had written that he tried to get XY out but couldn't and ended up so severely injured that he was in a coma for 37 years, that would have drastically changed how I evaluate the character. So by choosing A, the author is painting a particular portrait of this character and when the author's choices paint a consistent portrait, I will interpret that this is how the author meant for me to see him.
It's the same with the Lovers Bug. This is clearly a plot device, so what purpose does the author want to use this plot device for and why does it have to be this one and not another one? Why Lovers Bug? Why not the Friendship Bug or the Life Preserving Bugs? Why use it between characters A & B instead of A & C, A & D or B &D? If there is a plethora of details supporting a particular interpretation and you insisted on holding onto a small, obscure detail and dismissing everything else to support a different interpretation, then I'm questioning your motive and reading comprehension ability.
I feel like such a slacker fan, now. lol!
No idol would want me as a fan. The chance of me buying anything that they push is next to zero :-)
I still stand by my initial negative reaction to Jing. Granted, some non-biased folks give Jing the benefit of the doubt, or don't think it's as big a deal, but I personally don't do well with that sort mess.
We all have our own set of values that we use to measure and judge what is acceptable vs. what's not; what we like vs. what we don't. We bring this to our reading/drama consumption as well. You just have a very strong reaction to someone like Jing and your initial instinct may not be the wrong one. I'd imagine that if he'd made positive changes, you would have let go of this initial bad impression. I didn't like what I saw of him in the early part of the novel either, but I chalked it up to character setup and I expected that if he was going to be the "male lead", he would change and grow as the story progresses. Imagine my surprise when he didn't change and yet he still ended up with the female lead :-). Book 3 of the novel and I was expecting XY and XL to end up together because Jing was such a flop of a character :-).
I have been shifting through my thoughts about this character for the last 2 months. I want to be fair in my assessment, rather than as a more reactive, emotional response. And I've been reluctant to discuss this character as well. It's rather silly because I've been caught in that fan style thinking that I can't talk bad about this character because that's "bashing" and it will upset his fans. Since when does having an opinion on a character "bashing" and you are not allowed and shouldn't? I mean, I can write an essay on why Heathcliff is messed up and needs therapy without compunction, and yet, I have to tip-toe around this dude? I guess Heathcliff doesn't have an army of fans behind him ready to rip me to shred :-).
It's a rather sad state of affairs that this sort of "fan" thinking is so pervasive and people can't engage in anything without it.
b) is mutating into a typical toxic idol fandom with not tolerating any constructive criticism even from other fans (any critique is seen as hating), being vocal and demanding -- and short-sighted imo -- with wanting him to do more bog-standard idol romance dramas so they can see him kiss pretty actresses (I just want him to get interesting roles that challenge him and increase his reputation leading to increasing his chances of having a long successful acting career after the idol drama script offers dry up), over-inflating the ratings of his lesser works across all online platforms, and being quick to be defensive and aggressive on his behalf to supposedly protect him from the slings and arrows of public opinion (can you hear me rolling my eyes? lol).
Yes! Unfortunately, this sort of whacky fan behaviour is the norm in the CDramaland Idol industry. Blind support and adoration. Attacking anyone who dared to have anything other than fawning, gushing opinions on anything related to their idol. You can't have a critical opinion of their idol's drama, acting or character because that's a personal attack on their idol and you are a HATER (such a mature way of dealing with critique *snort*). The flip side is that if you praise someone, nutjobs out there will accuse you of being a fan and therefore biased blah, blah, blah ( if it's someone that they don't like, of course). I'm too old and too sane for these shenanigans. I watch the dramas, get some news and gossip and skedaddled.
An example of what you are saying with regards to separating character from actor, his character in Centimeter of Love was very aggravating and unlikable, but his performance was very good imo.
I want to find this with Vietnamese subs, but haven't had much luck. Actors should take on a variety of roles including unlikable one - and I mean truly unlikeable, not just cool, anti-hero. Hopefully, TJC won't pigeonhole himself into the idol drama land.
Yes, it is IQIYI's talent management subsidiary. Deng Wei is with Xiaojiang Media, his manager is Huang Huixian who used to manage Liu Haoran (very good young actor, hardly does tv shows, mostly films).
There's a world of difference between Liu Haoran and Deng Wei in terms of acting talent. I don't get access to a lot of Asian movies so if an actor predominantly does film, I never get to see them.
I don't get the height thing. I mean, when I see him next to other actors and stars they are about the same height, maybe an inch or so taller. Sure, when he's standing next to Jin Shi Jia he looks smaller, but everyone looks smaller next to Jin Shi Jia.
The important thing is that his personality and talent are larger than life.
OMG maaan I had NO idea that there were debates ab Jianci's appearance =O No one can say nonsense ab him. (Typically I'm not biased and personally think that this particular issue has nothing to do with it)
Actually for some people the appearance is of important criteria though for me PERSONALITY comes first. Imo it's literally impossible to take the most handsome person with the worst personality( I saw this thing with my own eyes and kinda experienced). Well in my eyes Jing's personality wasn't stable and he would always hide sth ab himself which is against my ethics and that made him reticent as well. So his personality did not meet my criteria. (I personally think that one can get used to appearance beauty through time but in no way to a bad personality)
Well I have nothing to say about Jing appearance (he's OK I mean) personally think he is in no place to be comparable to Jianci (no offense friends :)
Regarding Jianci's height well that's not even noticable and so what?! can people choose their appearance/ physical features?? Like I said The most significant thing about every person is one's character. Well as I said this many times, TJC more precisely XL's character was the very first thing that captured my attention. He was so myterious, majestic and totally the most UNIQUE character I've ever seen in my entire life. No need to mention that NO ONE could possibly do that elite job as Jianci not even CLOSE (I mean who could not see his things like him rolling his eyes well imo his eyes movement chiefly did a great job then his lips the way he smiles LITERALLY breathtaking♡, his pro combat movements, his seriousness and firm move and literally his everything :)
Jianci knew what he was doing with viewers ;)♡
I feel that XL somehow changed after the beach scene in which XY confessed that she didn't want him to get into her dreams that he was not the suitable manKimiya78:
Changed in what way?
What is the relationship between XL and Chenrong Yi?
It is not discussed or shown in the novel. As far as I can recall, it is also not discussed or shown in S1. Based on the leaked script, Chenrong Yi (Little Zhu Rong in the novel) will be one of many people who are sent to try to convince XL and Hong Jiang to surrender. XL will refuse, and Hong Jiang will point out that while Cherong Yi did his part to help the people of the Middle Plains prosper after surrendering to Xuan Yuan, Hong Jiang and his army also played a role in protecting their interests.
And also between Feng Long and XL?
They have no relationship until Feng Long becomes a general of Xiyan and leads the Xiyan army against Hong Jiang's Chenrong remnant army. Feng Long is killed by XL's arrow when he moves to protect CX from XL's assassination attempt.
3) On episode 26 I guess, in the party (FL & CX were playin chess) why Feng Long's sister got mad at FFB? (Their conversation was a bit vague, I somehow know it had to do with a guy who later on would kill XY though not sure about what was going on)
Some background:
Chi You is XY's biological father. Before he died on the battlefield fighting for Chenrong, he was a general of Chenrong and the 7th King of Chenrong's one and only disciple. He gained a reputation for being ruthless and killed many people, including the entirety of the Mu clan with the exception of one person. That person went on to plot XY's assassination after recognizing that XY was Chi You's daughter due to her having Chi You's eyes.
Feng Long and Xing Yue are twins (although Feng Long took his mother's family name because he will be the next Chi Sui clan leader). They are the children of Chenrong Yi and the daughter of the current Chi Sui clan leader. Chenrong Yi is the son of a great general of Chenrong who died in battle fighting for Chenrong. Chi Sui Feng Long, Chenrong Xing Yue, and Chenrong Yi are all descendants of the Chenrong royal family (hence their family name being Chenrong in the drama). Unlike his father, Chenrong Yi chose to surrender to Xiyan, but he remained loyal to the people of the Middle Plains and looked after their interests when he was appointed to rule over them as a subordinate of the King of Xiyan.
To answer your question:
In episode 26, Feng Long notes that Chi You was a great general of Chenrong, but no one mourned him after his death. Xing Yue says that people shoud hate Chi You and calls him brutal and violent - causing too many deaths. FFB censures Xing Yue, telling her that anyone can curse Chi You, except the Chenrong family. Xing Yue (who presumably does not appreciate being scolded by someone with FFB's lower status and reputation) demands that FFB tell her why. FFB tells her to ask her father (Chenrong Yi) about it, and then she will find out which side (between Chi You and the Chenrong family) is indebted to whom. FFB was alluding to the true reason why Chi You killed so many people (gaining a terrible reputation that made him reviled throughout the world) and all the other sacrifices that Chi You made for the Chenrong family and the Kingdom of Chenrong.
Did XL understood XY's true identity after ruining XL's plan for killing CX?
No.
But she obviously murmured gege and XL heard that too.
In episode 9, XL knew that Xuan the wine merchant was really Prince Xiyan Cang Xuan. He also knew that WXL was a woman, and he heard her murmur "gege" after she saved CX + before passing out in his grasp. But that did not lead XL to realize that XY was CX's long-lost meimei (Princess Haoling Jiao Yao).
Perhaps XL interpreted WXL murmuring "gege" in that moment to be like someone murmuring for their mother when they are dying. He didn't seem to assume that WXL was calling CX her gege and doesn't bring it up when he questions WXL in the next episode. IMO, it does make some sense that XL doesn't draw the connection, since CX had already gotten away by that point / was no longer present. It's also not clear how much XL would have known about Princess Haoling Jiao Yao and her relationship with CX before her disappearance.
Note, also, that WXL does not say "gege" out loud in this scene in the novel. She only smiles sweetly at XL as she vividly recalls her memories of CX. And the story of Princess Haoling Jiao Yao and Prince Xiyan Cang Xuan was not shown to be widely told the way it was in the drama. 200+ years after she disappeared from Jade Mountain, XL might not have known much, if anything, about the lost princess.
This is why no matter how much I try to understand their point of view, I will never not despise his fans and his character.
His fans managed to make an already ridiculous character into something simply repellent. Imagine thinking the PLB is a "guarantee for love not to change", "a cheat connection", and forgetting about that pathetic 15-year-promise made inside a literal prison.
“You…..you won’t let another man……into your heart.” Have those Jingers forgotten about this???
Deals are all this wimpy man does when he is not busy sleeping, dying, or being framed by his own family, and he's somehow hailed a hero, not to mention the endless justifications for his questionable behavior throughout the story.
I honestly do not know what Tong Hua meant to say with her ending. Or with the creation of this character altogether. It has to be the most frustrating thing ever written. How people do not comprehend this is a true mystery. In every other novel, this waste of oxygen should have been obliterated for the greater good, or at least for the reader's peace of mind.
I would love to be able to read the book from beginning to end, but the biggest impediment now is not even Xiang Liu dying. It all comes down to this nonentity called Jing.
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