Who knew XL had such a vivid imagination? First the scroll of XY's parents turning into him and XY and now the crystal ball. lolKokuto:
The scroll transforming was not XL's imagination. The transformation happened because of Chi Chen's spiritual power. See https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110123-xl-and-xy-story-and-romance-warning-spoilers?pid=3113931&page=713#p3113931.
Yeah, I'm going to disagree with that. Jing is not a merfolk nor does he have any affiliation with the sea. And I don't think XL thought of Jing as a substitute for himself. Jing has nothing to do with XL. Jing was the person XY had convinced herself would be a lifelong companion.
Agree that Jing is not a merman, but XL replacing himself with Jing and retreating from the relationship with XY was his intention. This is consistent with XL's other displayed behavior of pushing XY towards Jing and distancing himself from her. IMO, XL's logic in doing this was flawed because Jing was not who XY really wanted, and would never be able to truly replace XL in XY's heart.
Right. In the novel, this theory of the crystal ball predicting the future is invalid
I disagree that TH didn't throw hints of YaoLiu's future in the crystal ball. It's not just the scene inside the crystal ball, but the ingredients used to make the crystal ball hint at rebirth and reunion in both the novel and the drama. I'll need to do a full writeup on this at some point.
I agree, though I don't think of it as a sign of their eventual reunion, but of what they wanted, that is to be together, i.e. YaoLiu.
That's certainly a valid interpretation. I agree that the scene inside the crystal ball represent YaoLiu's mutual desire to be together, from XY and XL's perspectives. However, TH's foreshadowing goes beyond what can logically be concluded from a character's conscious intentions. For example, the Lovesickness song and the snake demon story foreshadowing YaoLiu's relationship trajectory, and the eight-tailed fox demon story foreshadowing YaoJing and XYxCX's relationship trajectories were not intentionally designed by XY even though she was the one singing the song and telling the stories. Unbeknownst to XY, TH added foreshadowing to the song/stories to weave a grass snake ash thread narrative. The same is the case for the crystal ball.
This is about tone. In neutral exposition, it would simply say XY didn’t do this or that. “Never” adds a heavy-handed tone that is not neutral. Its repeated use is an indicator that the paragraph is from a subjective POV.Snowcup:
I don't have a strong opinion about the particular paragraph being discussed, where "never" is used twice, but I have noticed that when XY narrates with overly dramatic language, it's often a sign that she's in denial. Here's an auto-translated excerpt from when XY discovered the memories of XL erased from her ape mirror.
Xiao Yao took a deep breath and used her spiritual power to open the mirror. After ripples spread out, there was nothing.
Xiaoyao panicked, saying, "Impossible! Impossible..." while anxiously using her spiritual power to search the mirror. However, no matter how many times she searched, she could not find Xiangliu's memory.
The only thing he left for her was completely gone!
Xiao Yao couldn't believe it. She looked at the mirror again and again unwillingly: "How could this happen? Why is it like this?"
Suddenly, she remembered that when she was unconscious, Xiang Liu discovered the secret in the mirror and asked her to delete everything. When he woke up, he didn't mention it again. She thought he had forgotten it, but it turned out that he had destroyed everything at some point!
Xiaoyao stroked the mirror and asked with tears in her eyes: "Xiangliu, am I really that unbearable in your eyes? You won't even let me keep a single memory!"
"Nine-headed demon! I hate you!" Xiao Yao smashed the mirror fiercely, and tears fell down her face.
-- Vol 3 Ch 18 (Chapter 51)
- "Impossible! Impossible..." - She's obviously in denial about the memories being erased.
- The only thing he left for her was completely gone! - The memories in the mirror were not the only things XL left for her. XY failed to mention his essential soul blood allowing her to be one with the sea, the sea map he gave her, Left Ear (who XL set up to help protect XY), and the bow & arrows, which the drama made clear that XY knew XL had gifted to her.
- "You won't even let me keep a single memory!" - Her dreams and memories are filled with XL.
- "Nine-headed demon! I hate you!" - She hates him so much that she decides to go explore places where she feels closest to him--the sea and islands he told her about. It's also worthwhile to note that in the novel, XL dies on an island and XY decides to go explore the islands. Similarly, in the drama, XL dies near QST and XY decides to go to QST.
Another example of where XY is in denial is when she tried to convince herself the XL didn't kiss her after comforting her about Chi Chen being her father.
Xiaoyao only felt a soft and cool feeling on her forehead, which disappeared immediately after a light touch. Xiaoyao suddenly covered her forehead and opened her eyes, but there was no one in front of her.
Illusion! It must be an illusion!
-- Vol 3 Ch 2 (Chapter 35)
But looking back at YaoLiu’s time together in Qingshui Town, what do you think about the time they spent there? Although the drama seems to suggest a shorter stay, the novel indicates that their stay was longer than a month. This means XY and XL spent more than 30 days together after XL declared FFB was “dead.” There are a lot of blank spaces in their time there.
A few days turns into 30 plus days and nothing is said in between. Still odd, imo.
I don’t have a strong opinion on whether Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao continued to talk during the 30+ day period when they were in QST, but I do find the duration itself intriguing. In Chapter 7, Xiang Liu took over a month to reflect after Xiao Liu said, "The only person I want to harm is you," before he made the sincere proposal to transfer the poisonous gu from Xuan's body to his own.
In both situations, the 30+ days seem to represent a period of deliberation for Xiang Liu. In the first case, he was deciding whether to accept the gu. In the second, he might have been weighing whether to continue distancing himself from Xiao Yao while pushing her toward Tushan Jing. If this period reflects Xiang Liu’s internal struggle, it suggests the outcome wasn’t predetermined.
This means there may have been a chance for them to change course, to confess their feelings, and for Xiang Liu to decide to take Xiao Yao away during that month in Qingshui Town—an opportunity they both, unfortunately, let slip away.
liddi:
Yuan Mo: You are the White Robed Stranger!Xiang Liu: Insanecr. tlmssusu @ X
LOL! So, that's what Yuan Mo is saying! Too funny.
Yes, even though GO EAST has been healing with humor, and there's very little, maybe zero, of XL in Yuan Mo, there are still reminders. Did you see the mashup videos of Yuan Mo and XL? They remind me of the FFB / XL mash ups. lol
The scroll transforming was not XL's imagination. The transformation happened because of Chi Chen's spiritual power. See https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110123-xl-and-xy-story-and-romance-warning-spoilers?pid=3113931&page=713#p3113931.solarlunareclipse:
I have a different interpretation. I don't think the scroll painting of XY's parents transforming into XL and XL literally happened. Chi Chen had moved on. And the CGI we saw wasn't peach blossom flowers, but glowing lights, so more like Lovers Bugs. I mean, let's remember all the complaining about the lack of adequate CGI peach blossom flower petals for XY's scene. They are very distinct, and apparently sparse in CGI Lost You Forever. ;p
And why would there be any acknowledgement of XL, when he's there to ask about removing the Lovers Bugs, and thus ending his relationship with XY?
TBH, I'm wondering if this scene was also a last minute addition? Was it in the leaked script? Or I wonder if it is out of place, because XL is wearing the courtship outfit, that he wore on Rejection Beach, that he never wore again.
Agree that Jing is not a merman, but XL replacing himself with Jing and retreating from the relationship with XY was his intention. This is consistent with XL's other displayed behavior of pushing XY towards Jing and distancing himself from her. IMO, XL's logic in doing this was flawed because Jing was not who XY really wanted, and would never be able to truly replace XL in XY's heart.
We might be saying the same thing, but differently. What I'm trying to say is more in line with your last sentence. I don't think XL saw Jing as a love rival, really. Jing was something XY believed she wanted, so XL did his best to give it to her. Jing has nothing to do with XL's place in her heart. If he saw Jing as a love rival, a replacement, I think it would have triggered the Lovers Bugs.
I disagree that TH didn't throw hints of YaoLiu's future in the crystal ball. It's not just the scene inside the crystal ball, but the ingredients used to make the crystal ball hint at rebirth and reunion in both the novel and the drama. I'll need to do a full writeup on this at some point.
In the novel, if the man added to the crystal ball is Jing, then yes, it contradicts the theory that the interior of crystal ball is the future reunion of YaoLiu. This theory only works if the man is XL, not Jing.
I'm going to revise my idea that the disappearing merman Jing is just a cinematic transition slightly, because the more I think about it, the more I think it is also Tong Hua confirming that yes, Jing is a stalker, lurking around the merfolk lovers, but he disappears from the scene, because he has no place in their relationship. Like I said before, the crystal ball is a dialog between XY and XL of what they want, but can't say.
That's certainly a valid interpretation. I agree that the scene inside the crystal ball represent YaoLiu's mutual desire to be together, from XY and XL's perspectives. However, TH's foreshadowing goes beyond what can logically be concluded from a character's conscious intentions. For example, the Lovesickness song and the snake demon story foreshadowing YaoLiu's relationship trajectory, and the eight-tailed fox demon story foreshadowing YaoJing and XYxCX's relationship trajectories were not intentionally designed by XY even though she was the one singing the song and telling the stories. Unbeknownst to XY, TH added foreshadowing to the song/stories to weave a grass snake ash thread narrative. The same is the case for the crystal ball.
Sure. But in that example, XL and the snake demon DIES. I don't see Tong Hua's story pointing toward reincarnation. To me, it's about Losing Someone Forever, or Eternally Longing for Someone. It's not Temporarily Losing Someone or Temporarily Longing For Someone.
Notifications not working for me at all either. How do you clean out notifications? All mine are marked as read. Will try to unfollow and refollow the threads again I guess?
Well, I've got like 94 notifications. lol So, I need to go thru them or mark them as read. IIRC, the MDL tech person said that now, if you don't check a topic after a notification or two, then it won't send you anymore. So I'm wondering if I have some old notifications there.
Or yes, I might need to unfollow, log out, log in, and then refollow. That worked once.
Or it could be I need to clear my cache.
Or MDL notifications could be broken again.
Sigh. We didn't use to have this problem.
I don't see Tong Hua's story pointing toward reincarnation. To me, it's about Losing Someone Forever, or Eternally Longing for Someone. It's not Temporarily Losing Someone or Temporarily Longing For Someone.
Just chiming in here to say I agree with this. Having XL reincarnate would ruin the theme of "boundless yearning." Also, for some reason(s) I can't quite articulate in words, the thought of XY reuniting with XL's reincarnation just doesn't sit right with me and ruins my enjoyment of the work.
But this is not to say that they do not reunite. As I said before, I am convinced that they do reunite in the afterlife, in a similar way to AH's epilogue. Perhaps one of the reasons I resonate with this above all else is that XY & XL will be together literally forever, after a lifetime of yearning. In contrast, something else like having XL reincarnate implies that their relationship is limited, since they still have to face death at some point.
Just chiming in here to say I agree with this. Having XL reincarnate would ruin the theme of "boundless yearning." Also, for some reason(s) I can't quite articulate in words, the thought of XY reuniting with XL's reincarnation just doesn't sit right with me and ruins my enjoyment of the work.Rain_83223:
I do think part of the appeal of LYF is that yearning.
I think XY needs still has room for growth. If XL is reincarnated, and she is in the same lifetime, will she have changed enough to make their relationship work? Or if they aren't enemies, will that be enough? I don't think so. I think XL has a pretty clear pattern of learning and growing, from being a demon to becoming 'human.' Though he still needs to learn how to communicate. lol
Thanks for sharing this post. I agree that XY had some pent-up resentment against XL for FFB’s death after the runaway wedding. This may have fueled her behavior afterward in “seducing” Hou and flaunting her reputation.
Don't get me started on whose responsible for FFB's 'death.' Such a heartbreaking moment, and one where things could have gone so differently.
But looking back at YaoLiu’s time together in Qingshui Town, what do you think about the time they spent there? Although the drama seems to suggest a shorter stay, the novel indicates that their stay was longer than a month. This means XY and XL spent more than 30 days together after XL declared FFB was “dead.” There are a lot of blank spaces in their time there. Do you think they had any continued discussions about it? Why didn't she try to convince him otherwise? Why aren't there more arguments? Why is she so passive with XL? Could her anger be self-directed as well?
If her anger is directed towards herself, I don't think XY is aware of it consciously, though she should be, given the events that led up to FFB's 'death.' This was another example of XY thinking solely about herself and completely forgetting that she's the one that sent the crystal ball, signalling she was open to a relationship with XL. IMO, that was why XL did the wedding robbery, in one of his few selfish acts. But XY's solution to many problems is to not face them, and to freeze up and do nothing, and I think that's why she was so passive during this time.
Speaking of forgetting, I'd apparently forgotten it was so long that they were in Qingshui Town after the wedding robbery. I also missed the part where XL was staring at XY alot. Most of the discussion about this section, IIRC, is about the symbolism of the window and how XL closed it firmly. I've always felt this was the last time that XL was open to finding a way to have a relationship with XY IF she admitted openly that she wanted one with him. In my mind, that's why he asked her who she wanted to spend her life with. Not everyone agrees with that interpretation, however.
Upon thinking about it, however, I do think this month of blank space was Tong Hua's way of leaving room for the reader to find or think about the hidden lines of their relationship, as she mentioned before. But in the drama, I think Tong Hua actually filled it up for us, as she said she had to for a visual medium, with all those additional scenes some folks didn't like -- but I enjoyed. From the casino scene, where they gamble to find a 'truthful' answer to the same question XL asks after the wedding robbery, to the stroll across the bridge, to his scene with the donkey meat seller, even to the scene where Li Rong Chang comes to his Qingshui house and offers hi the life he wants, as he sees Sang T'ier's grandchildren through an open window. It's all about XL making sure that XY still 'believes' she doesn't want to spend her life with him.
In both situations, the 30+ days seem to represent a period of deliberation for Xiang Liu. In the first case, he was deciding whether to accept the gu. In the second, he might have been weighing whether to continue distancing himself from Xiao Yao while pushing her toward Tushan Jing. If this period reflects Xiang Liu’s internal struggle, it suggests the outcome wasn’t predetermined.
This means there may have been a chance for them to change course, to confess their feelings, and for Xiang Liu to decide to take Xiao Yao away during that month in Qingshui Town—an opportunity they both, unfortunately, let slip away.
Exactly! From her reaction to the wedding robbery (which she wanted, but not in that fashion) to the time in Qingshui Town, it was the last opportunity for YaoLiu.
That's interesting about the 30 days for a decision. Maybe a moon cycle?
I do think part of the appeal of LYF is that yearning.
I think XY needs still has room for growth. If XL is reincarnated, and she is in the same lifetime, will she have changed enough to make their relationship work? Or if they aren't enemies, will that be enough? I don't think so. I think XL has a pretty clear pattern of learning and growing, from being a demon to becoming 'human.' Though he still needs to learn how to communicate. lol
I vote for a personality transplant and intensive therapy:-). I do not want these two to get involved again without it. Actually, how about never meeting again? That totally works for me :-).
And I 1000% do not want XL to hang around like a bad smell in some after life waiting room, waiting for XY to die and join him. She made her choice, she lived her life he should be free to reincarnate and find new love or ascend a higher level of enlightenment. Whatever debt or lessons he needed from their relationship have been completed, let end that karmic cycle.
Arghhh... how can I say no to it!!
I've placed an order via Taobao - very first time buying a physical item from the platform so fingers crossed everything goes smoothly (pretty much winging it!). From what I've been told it should be shipped out in about a month's time. Please let Mao Qiu come home safely!
Have your Mao Qiu arrived liddi? I want to buy one but it's so expensive I need a review before plunking down the cash.
I vote for a personality transplant and intensive therapy:-). I do not want these two to get involved again without it. Actually, how about never meeting again? That totally works for me :-).HeadInTheClouds:
HeadInTheClouds seems to have some trauma associated with YaoLiu. lol
And I 1000% do not want XL to hang around like a bad smell in some after life waiting room, waiting for XY to die and join him. She made her choice, she lived her life he should be free to reincarnate and find new love or ascend a higher level of enlightenment. Whatever debt or lessons he needed from their relationship have been completed, let end that karmic cycle.
Come on. The heart wants what the heart wants. ;p And hopefully, after a lifetime of Jing (horrifying thought) she'll have changed.
Cuteness. Are there anymore of these? I really like this series of cartoon featuring TJC'S characters interacting with each others
Did you see this video?
I have a different interpretation. I don't think the scroll painting of XY's parents transforming into XL and XL literally happened. Chi Chen had moved on. And the CGI we saw wasn't peach blossom flowers, but glowing lights, so more like Lovers Bugs. I mean, let's remember all the complaining about the lack of adequate CGI peach blossom flower petals for XY's scene. They are very distinct, and apparently sparse in CGI Lost You Forever. ;p
Agree that the CGI was sort of ambiguous because it showed glowing lights like the Lovers Bugs, but with the color of the peach blossom flowers. Because some sort of CGI effects were used when the image of YaoLiu appeared, I'm more inclined to think that this was a real transformation rather than XL's imagination. If we compare it to the third merperson, we didn't see any special effects when that merman appeared, which to me supports the idea that the third merperson was XL's imagination.
If Chi Chen and A Heng had nothing to do with the transformation of the scroll to show YaoLiu, then what do you believe is the purpose of showing the first transformation of the scroll that happened when a peach petal flew into the scroll and transformed the image to show Chi Chen handing to A Heng a peach branch in Season 2, Episode 15?
And why would there be any acknowledgement of XL, when he's there to ask about removing the Lovers Bugs, and thus ending his relationship with XY?
I don't think the spiritual power embedded in the scroll was so sophisticated as to be able to understand the context of why XL was there. It probably just sensed XL's lovers bug and determined that he was XY's true love and transformed the image as a message to XL to look after XY.
Even if the remnant spiritual power was sophisticated enough to understand the purpose of XL's visit, XL wanted to remove the Lovers Bugs because of how much he loved XY and couldn't bear for her to die with him. Thus, he was still worthy of Chi Chen and A Heng's acknowledgement.
Or I wonder if it is out of place, because XL is wearing the courtship outfit, that he wore on Rejection Beach, that he never wore again.
XL wore this Red Thread of Fate outfit four times total:
- When he came injured to Xiao Liu's room and she drew seven eyes on his head
- When YaoLiu planted the Poisonous Lovers' Bugs
- When he tried to get Xiao Yao to kiss him for air
- When he is at Chi Chen's cottage and discovers that A Heng and Chi Chen had lived there together
My interpretation is that when he is wearing this outfit, he allows himself to show some vulnerability towards Xiao Yao. In the last case, when he learns that CC & AH had lived in the cottage together, it probably led him to briefly allow himself to imagine what a life together with XY would have been like.
I'm going to revise my idea that the disappearing merman Jing is just a cinematic transition slightly, because the more I think about it, the more I think it is also Tong Hua confirming that yes, Jing is a stalker, lurking around the merfolk lovers, but he disappears from the scene, because he has no place in their relationship.
Haha...obviously I like the interpretation of Jing being a stalker because I'm too petty to pass up an opportunity to take a cheap shot at Jing. That said, I don't think highlighting Jing as a stalker was necessarily TH's intent here because XL isn't as petty as I am and wouldn't add a stalker Jing to the crystal ball just to underscore Jing's creepiness. Also, if XL did want to add Jing to the crystal ball, he would have added a regular man--just like in the novel, not a merman.
The disappearance of the merman could be explained by:
- XL adding, but then deciding to remove the 3rd merman before inscribing the ball.
- A continuity error/sloppy editing.
- The 3rd merman only existed in XL's imagination.
The first explanation makes no sense considering XL saves Jing. It's also hard for me to imagine the meticulous drama production team dropping the ball so hard as to allow such a big continuity error in the final edit. Thus, I think the third explanation is the most likely.
Sure. But in that example, XL and the snake demon DIES. I don't see Tong Hua's story pointing toward reincarnation. To me, it's about Losing Someone Forever, or Eternally Longing for Someone. It's not Temporarily Losing Someone or Temporarily Longing For Someone.
The snake demon does die, but XL dies as well. It doesn't mean that XL won't get reincarnated. The snake demon story alone doesn't hint at reincarnation, but there are plenty of other clues that do hint at it (e.g. the nine stalks soul restoring grass, the fact that demon's don’t truly die unless you destroy their demon core and scatter their consciousness).
Or MDL notifications could be broken again.
Notifications aren't really working that well for me anymore either. Probably some bug.
That's interesting about the 30 days for a decision. Maybe a moon cycle?
Good point, 30 days is about the length of a moon cycle. This reminds me of another time XL waited 30 days before taking action. When XY poisoned herself, he waited a full moon cycle before saving her on Jade Mountain and killing their Lovers' Bugs. So yeah, I think TH meant for 30 days to have some sort of significance.
Just chiming in here to say I agree with this. Having XL reincarnate would ruin the theme of "boundless yearning."
And I 1000% do not want XL to hang around like a bad smell in some after life waiting room, waiting for XY to die and join him. She made her choice, she lived her life he should be free to reincarnate and find new love or ascend a higher level of enlightenment. Whatever debt or lessons he needed from their relationship have been completed, let end that karmic cycle.
All valid points of view :)
From my perspective, I'm personally okay with the "official" ending where XL fulfills XY, dies for good, and never reunites with XY. It's a perfectly fine ending, one TH used effectively in Memories Scattered Across the Galaxy. That said, I think TH has dispersed enough clues throughout LYF and the drama extras hinting at XL's reincarnation and YaoLiu's eventual reunion that I believe this is the story she wants to tell. Regardless of whether a YaoLiu reunion is a good idea or whether XY is worthy of XL, I find it fascinating to follow TH's bread crumbs on the hidden ending.
Snowcup 3 days ago
AH :
I make a point of not disregarding context. Which is why I often include long excerpts in my comments in this thread, including my first comment above (where I quoted the full scene in the original Mandarin and both human and AI translations into English). Since the context was already provided in my first comment, I didn't think it needed to be provided again in my second comment. Which is why I only quoted the operative phrases (in the original Mandarin) that I was specifically referring to and connecting in my second comment.
Attaching long excerpts doesn’t actually confirm that. You were right to avoid it the first time, as it wasn’t needed.
When I discuss parts of the novel in this thread, the inclusion of text excerpts from the relevant scenes allows both me and anyone participating in the discussion with me to remind ourselves of the particular details of the scene and the context of the scene. While including those excerpts doesn't guarantee that I, or anyone else, will actually take the relevant context into account when analyzing and discussing a scene, that is one of the main reasons I include them. If you still feel that I have not taken the context into account when analyzing that scene, I don't think there is anything else I can say to "confirm" otherwise. You have the right to have your own opinion.
Once I have posted a long excerpt as part of a discussion on a particular topic, I usually don't repost the same excerpt again as the discussion progresses, as I (and everyone else, if they are inclined) can easily refer back to the first excerpt and, if I need to, I'll refer to or re-copy shorter bits of specific text as I did in my second comment. It sounds like we do at least agree that reposting the full excerpt again isn't necessary.
Your interpretation, however, is based on a fragment from an ambiguously-written sentence. Clearly, you were focusing on the fragment for its literal meaning.
AH :
Snowcup:
A conversation could have taken place before her quiet, passive-aggressive state. For instance, the drama adds dialogue (not included in the novel) when XL tells XY that FFB is dead. In the novel, she falls asleep outside in the sun, wakes up to children’s laughter, and then the exposition says that YaoLiu stayed in the courtyard for more than a month. After the initial shock of the news wore off, it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for a conversation to have happened at that point, perhaps during dinner.
I also take a different view to this.
To me, the novel seems pretty clear about the sequence of events.XL tells XY that FFB is dead.XY stares at XL and tears form in her eyes.Xiao Yao grabs a pail of well water and splashes the water on her face.XY grabs a biscuit from the kitchen and then returns to the courtyard to bask in the sun, where she munched on the biscuit.XL asked XY two questions, and XY ignored him both times. So XL spoke no further and focused on his documents.XY continued to nibble on the biscuit until she fell asleep.Children's laughter roused XY from her sleep. She glanced over to where YSQ should have been, but only saw XL's white robes. XY covered her eyes, but didn't know what she was covering them from.XY and XL stayed there for over a month.During that over-a-month period, XL would leave each day while XY was still asleep. XY never left. She slept restlessly, and when she was awake she was in a daze as if she were dreaming.Also during that over-a-month period, XY never spoke to XL and treated him as though he didn't exist.From the moment XY left Chishui, she remained calm... until the window confrontation on the last night, when she finally lost her temper and stopped ignoring XL.XL then spoke coldly to XY, and XY "finally" spoke to XL... for the first time since she asked XL about FFB over a month earlier.
IMO, "她却从不和相柳说话，视相柳不存在。" describes how XY behaved during "相柳和小夭在清水镇的小院里一住就是一个多月。" And her behaviour is a continuation of how XY behaved after XL told XY that FFB was "dead" and before she fell asleep in the courtyard. Before XY fell asleep, XY did not speak to XL and ignored him. After XY woke up, XY continued to not speak to XL and ignored him for over a month.
The novel jumps to the window confrontation over a month after XY's nap because that is when XY's behaviour changes and she finally speaks to XL again.
So, XY's silence is continuous. Based on how the novel describes it, it seems to me that there was no gap in XY's silence where she might have had an "off screen" discussion with XL during that time.
相柳和小夭在清水镇的小院里一住就是一个多月。
清晨到晌午之间，小夭还在睡觉时，相柳会出去一趟，小夭却从不出去。她睡着时，翻来覆去，像仿醒着；醒着时，恍恍惚惚，像是在做梦。说她恨相柳，她并不反抗，也没有企图逃跑；说她不恨相柳，她却从不和相柳说话，视相柳不存在。
Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao stayed in the small courtyard in Qingshui Town for over a month.
In the time between dawn and noon, while Xiao Yao was still sleeping, Xiang Liu would go out, but Xiao Yao never did. When she was asleep, she tossed and turned, as if she were awake; when she was awake, she seemed to be in a daze, as if she were dreaming. If one were to say she hated Xiang Liu, she didn’t resist nor did she try to escape; if one were to say she didn’t hate Xiang Liu, she never spoke to him, treating him as if he didn’t exist.
Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao lived in Qing Shui Town for over a month just like that.
In the morning when Xiao Yao was still sleeping, Xiang Liu would go out. Xiao Yao never went out and when she slept she would toss and turn like she was still awake. When she was awake it was like a daze and she was dreaming. To say she hated Xiang Liu… but she never resisted and never tried to run away. To say she didn’t hate Xiang Liu… she never spoke to him and acted like he didn’t exist.
I view one sentence (the sentence in green) as providing the timeframe in which the actions described in the next paragraph, including the fragment of a sentence (the fragment in blue) at the end of the next paragraph, took place. That interpretation does not disregard the in-universe context or the meta context of these sentences. I acknowledge both and feel that both support, rather than contradict, my interpretation.
Btw, I’m only sharing my approach to interpretation. I do think that every reader’s interpretation should feel natural for them, and ultimately, there’s no right or wrong with any reader’s interpretation.
Ditto.
AH :
I disagree with this interpretation. If the statement were true (as it would be, if XY never left and never spoke to XL during this time) the use of "never" twice in one paragraph would not be hyperbole and it would not be too emphatic for a neutral narrator to state it that way. We know that the statement that XY never went out (like XL did ) during this time was true. Hence why XY did not realize, until the last day, that the house and courtyard were right next to Hui Chun Clinic, that Tian Er was still alive and living there, and that the children she heard included Tian Er's grandchildren or great-grandchildren. I see no reason to conclude that the statement that she never spoke to XL during this time was not also true.
This is about tone. In neutral exposition, it would simply say XY didn’t do this or that. “Never” adds a heavy-handed tone that is not neutral. Its repeated use is an indicator that the paragraph is from a subjective POV.
Again, I disagree. But I think we've each fully described our views on this and still disagree. Might be best to simply agree to disagree on this point.
AH :
Again, I don't view this sentence as XY's narration. I view it as objective and factual. The same as the sentences preceding it and the sentence following it.
This is fiction; there are no facts. A novel isn’t a newspaper. A novel is meant to capture the imagination.
LYF is a work of fiction, but that does not mean it does not include its own array of in-universe facts that are objectively true within the confines of that fictional universe.
When the objective narrator tells the reader certain information throughout the novel, I view that information as being "factual" and "true" in the LYF universe and therefore not information that needs to be taken with a grain of salt with regard to whether it is true or not. Of course, the information is still being provided to the readers by Tong Hua (via the objective narrator as a conduit), so one still has to keep an eye out for what might have been omitted or possibly even framed in a misleading way. But on the whole I view that narration as much more trustworthy (and, as I said, factual) than XY's narration, which I agree is often highly subjective and frequently needs to be taken with a healthy pinch of salt.
What you perceived as straightforward exposition is actually not the case. This paragraph is written from XY's subjective perspective, which is why it's intentionally separated from the neutral exposition sections. A key indicator is the use of "never" twice, which suggests hyperbole. "Never" is too emphatic to be used twice in neutral narration. Additionally, the phrases "when she was asleep, she tossed and turned as if she were awake" and "when she was awake, she was in a daze as if she were dreaming" blur the line between XY’s reality and dreams. This suggests she may struggle to distinguish between the two. In this state, XY is not a reliable narrator.
In my view, there might be more to what happened during those four weeks than what is described in the novel or shown in the drama. The description of their stay constitutes only a small fraction of the total time. I find it peculiar that there’s such a long gap between their arrival and when XL finally questions XY and pushes her away the next day. Why did the author choose to make their time in Qingshui Town more than a month long, instead of just several days or a week or two, with virtually nothing happening? “Xiang Liu would often stare at Xiao Yao for a long time. Sometimes Xiao Yao didn't notice, and sometimes she did, but she didn't care; she just let him stare.”
If you're asking specifically whether I think it's possible there was any verbal interaction during those two points, then I would agree it’s possible, given TH's literary style of elliptical writing (omitting information) and ambiguous phrasing. A conversation could have taken place before her quiet, passive-aggressive state. For instance, the drama adds dialogue (not included in the novel) when XL tells XY that FFB is dead. In the novel, she falls asleep outside in the sun, wakes up to children’s laughter, and then the exposition says that YaoLiu stayed in the courtyard for more than a month. After the initial shock of the news wore off, it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary for a conversation to have happened at that point, perhaps during dinner.
Snowcup:
Additionally, the phrases "when she was asleep, she tossed and turned as if she were awake" and "when she was awake, she was in a daze as if she were dreaming" blur the line between XY’s reality and dreams. This suggests a mental state where she struggles to distinguish between the two. In this state, XY is not a reliable narrator.
Again, I don't view this sentence as XY's narration. I view it as objective and factual. The same as the sentences preceding it and the sentence following it.
Even if it were XY's narration, I am struggling to picture a version of events where XY actually did have a conversation with XL during that time but then, due to her dazed state, somehow forgot that the conversation happened and thought that she had actually "never" spoken to XL during this time. If such a conversation somehow did happen, it can't have been much of a conversation.
Or are you thinking that when XL asked The Questions on the last night and then made XY forget that he did so, that he actually had more than one conversation with XY like that during their time in QS town but he made her forget each of them after the fact? Tbh, if that's your interpretation, it seems rather sinister to me. One memory wipe with a justifiable reason is one thing. Multiple memory wipes quickly becomes... creepy.
AH :
Even if it were XY's narration, I am struggling to picture a version of events where XY actually did have a conversation with XL during that time but then, due to her dazed state, somehow forgot that the conversation happened and thought that she had actually "never" spoken to XL during this time. If such a conversation somehow did happen, it can't have been much of a conversation.
Or are you thinking that when XL asked The Questions on the last night and then made XY forget that he did so, that he actually had more than one conversation with XY like that during their time in QS town but he made her forget each of them after the fact? Tbh, if that's your interpretation, it seems rather sinister to me. One memory wipe with a justifiable reason is one thing. Multiple memory wipes quickly becomes... creepy.
That’s quite a leap. We only discussed the possibility of any verbal interaction, and already you’re jumping into the deep end. This is about exploring reasonable inferences, not veering into wild flights of fancy.
You've said that you think it's possible that XL and XY spoke "off screen" between the time that XL told XY that FFB was "dead" and their last night in QS town, which would make the statement that XY never spoke to XL a false one. Although I agree that we can't know for certain whether or not XL and XY spoke "off screen" (so it is "possible" that they did so), I've noted already that I think it is highly unlikely, especially since the text specifies that XY never spoke to XL.
You've said that you view that statement as coming from XY, an unreliable narrator, which could help explain how it would be possible for XL and XY to speak during that time even though the text says that they did not.
I view those sentences, including the statement that XY never spoke to XL, as coming from an objective narrator and as a being a statement of fact, similar to any other statement of fact in the LYF universe. Which informs my interpretation that XY did not speak to XL during that time.
Then, for the sake of trying to better understand your perspective, I considered a scenario where: (1) the statement was coming from XY rather than an objective narrator; and (2) the statement was not true (i.e., XY had spoken to XL "off screen"). In that case, I was looking to explore the possible explanations for XY's false statement. Was her false statement based on a simple mis-recollection, because the conversation that XY and XL had "off screen" was so inconsequential she forgot it happened? Did XL make XY forget the conversation? Those were the first two possible explanations I could think of. I am open to considering other proposed explanations, reasonable or unreasonable.
I think this is clear, but just in case it isn't, I'm not suggesting that I think XY did have a conversation with XL and forgot it, or that she had a conversation with XL and he made her forget it. My interpretation remains that XY did not speak to XL during that time. I was looking to consider other possibilities, both reasonable ones and wild ones, in an attempt to better understand your different interpretation and how it could have played out.
AH :
IMO, the fact that XY was shown to have had one conversation with Ah Nian (where XY told Ah Nian how sad she was), was shown to have had one conversation with Shao Hao (where she told him about how she was thinking of her mother abandoning her), and made poison for XL on one or two occasions (as this was something she did once every three months, not something she would do constantly / "the whole time") during the "几个月" (several months) that she spent on Five Gods Mountain in chapter 30, doesn't negate the comparison with her behaviour during the month in QS town in chapter 32.
XY had no reason to ignore Ah Nian and Shao Hao, or to not speak to them, in chapter 30. They hadn't done anything to upset her. And XY was not rendered mute in chapter 32. She chose not to speak to XL during that time, for a reason. He had done something to upset her.
In both circumstances, XY woke up (late) every day but still got out of bed, presumably ate, presumably drank, presumably took care of her own bodily functions and personal hygiene, spent a significant portion of her time awake staring in a daze, went back to bed, and slept poorly. She didn't practice her archery. She didn't study poisons or medicine. She didn't go out. Her behaviour in the two situations was not absolutely exactly the same of course, because the context was different. The period on Five Gods Mountain was longer, XY was with family members who weren't the ones that upset her, and the circumstances that led to XY being upset were different. But for the most part XY's behaviour in the two situations was, IMO, remarkably similar. To the point where I thought that Tong Hua likely intentionally created parallels between them for readers to observe.
My response concisely indicated the difference in behavior. Your response seems a bit conflated with extraneous material. There are too many trees to see the forest here.
As I said, after taking the different circumstances for each period into account, I view those differences in behaviour, concisely indicated or not, as being immaterial to the point.
I suppose one person's meaningful context and parallels can be another person's extraneous material.
It seems that we just have different views on this one, too. Another place where we may be best served by agreeing to disagree.
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