Alysha Johnson

Hmm.. True. I never care about the politics of LYF or thought of it very seriously. It is all part of the setting for the romance, which is the meat of the story. I think I only got to thinking this much because we are discussing this topic.

I think the main difference between my thinking and yours is that I never thought CX wouldn't get anywhere without Jing. I know CX is quite smart and very determined. If Jing and FL wasn't involved, he would have fought a different battle in Xiyan instead of Shengnong. But that would be a different story. And I ponder a lot about an alternative timeline where Jing was not tortured, and XY did not found him first. CX would have done fine as well. He would have won over FL or Jing, or they would have met under different circumstances.

My thinking was in line of what already happening in the story. If there is no Jing, CX would be fine. But the story do include Jing, and he did contribute to help CX, smooth his rise and maybe even shortened it. Hence my point. Jing's contribution % is not based on CX's own capability, but for the mere fact that Jing do the deed, and gave the help.

As for No.1/ I think there's a crucial difference. Eight prince's mother is too low-class, and she has no clan to support her. 4th prince is from a high ranked consort, with a powerful maternal clan. The uncles is more like the 4th prince than the 8th prince. If I rmb correctly, the Yellow Emperor married the uncle's mother for the power from her clan, who is one of the Xiyan noble clans (like the 6 minor Middle Plain families). Their power is more deep rooted in Xiyan than CX's grandmother clan, which is Xiling. Overall, Xiling would be more powerful in DaHuang, but specifically Xiyan, the Uncle mother clan is quite powerful. So when it come to lineage/legitimacy, they got a real shot with CX, unlike the 8th prince vs. 4th prince.

As for the changes the drama made to the Jing's character, I disagree. I don't think the drama was trying to make him nicer/better. The drama is bringing some aspect that were blindsided in the novel because the novel was mainly in XY's POV. I think that is why we are aware of FFYY's affair so early in the drama but it was not revealed until later in the novel. Jing's involvement from the beginning was also revealed at the very end by FL, so I don't think it was something the drama added to justify the Jing's character. It exist all along but was never emphasize on. And Jing being a better contributor to CX's rise don't really affect how people accept Jing's relationship with XY in my opinion. If one is to ship Jing and XY, it is because of his action toward XY.

If you think about it "by portraying TSJ to be so astute in the political line, it made his failure in sorting out his domestic affairs all the more striking and disjointed." - I think this can be applied for all three.

All three are so screwed and capable, but all three male leads have a chip on their shoulder. If I just use my logics, then it is so disjoint to me to see a person so selfless and love so deeply like XL, who would give his life over and over to XY, would not choose to live out his life with her. It is also so disjointed for me to see that CX, who had controlled on all his action and emotions all his life, cannot let go of wanting XY for himself, and did what he did. But if I use my feelings to assess the character, I understand them both perfectly. As for Jing, I think people can't empathize with Jing's predicament because Hou tortured him, so logically it only make sense that Jing get rid of him and sort this out. We are very used to revenge, an eye for an eye. Gongong is XL family, he can't give him up. XY is CX's only family, he can't give her up. And Hou in a twisted way, is Jing's only family left. He can't give him up either. It's not that Jing is incapable of sorting out his domestic affair, he just don't have the heart to. Neither Gongong or XY is giving XL and CX as much of a hard time as Jing's family is giving him. But when it come down to between taking the logical choice vs the emotional choice, both of them chose the emotional choice. I think it's very consistent of TongHua to do the same with Jing's character. If he was ruthless and efficient with Hou, he would be the perfect character with almost no flaw, and we wouldn't be having such chaotic shipper fights. We would have draw the curtain and end the show early. (Like Yangzi mentioned during their livestream. The host mentioned how FFB was going to give melons to XY aka FFYY affair. Then Yangzi said, well if that happened, we would not need to film so many episodes afterward, so it's good that FFB was not successful at sharing his melons.)

When it come down to each of the male lead supporters I finally came to accept a fact just recently daunt on me. No matter who you ship or root for, for those that get it, get it. For those that don't, won't. If you support Jing, you'll get him, and that's the same for XL and CX as well.

I heard that too but I just love the sound of his voice.

I think CX charm is more about his character than his ship with XY. Personally to me, his relationship with her is endearing but only platonically. His angst I kinda love because I love emotional torture. It's the selling point for me.

yeah his voice does something to me.. and it work really well for his character too.. something deep, soulful but also constrained/restricted.

it's his own voice

I do!!! She's really loyal and she actually care.
AND she cry more for Jing than even XY. She care for his wellbeings more than even his Grandma. And she doesn't even like him romantically. Jing Ye is a really good female character.

So you're saying you're FL? Lmao :D

how do I get a membership?
I rewatched it 3 times, more for certain episodes, youtube clips, bts clips, even started watching old hi!6 episodes for TJC, and stalking this page.

I really need help.

"Thus, to elevate Jing's role in CX's political success to a level of superiority where it almost seems like CX owes Jing his throne."

That is not the level I am arguing for Jing's case. Even I know that is unreasonable. But I do disagree with how little people think Jing contribution was, that I think 5-10% is still too little and belittle his work. He did not just get the thing rolling/catalyst. He got the people, he gave the idea, he supports the operation all along - money, relations. He manipulated the chess pieces for CX. Yes CX have to win people over but Jing also guaranteed them for CX so these supporters gave CX a chance to prove himself. Supporting CX come with a risk.

1. I am aware of the Empress/Consort hierarchy. But that is only a starting point for CX for even to try to get the throne at all. Empress's descendants take precedent, given if everything else is equal or a negligible gap. However, at the start of the drama, the disparity between CX and the uncles is very far. Additionally, it's also very common for successors NOT being of the Empress's descendants. It's a mixture of many factors (lineage of Empress, supportive power of the maternal/Empress clan, the successor own achievement, and the support of the court, various factions, how they all related to each other). The Xiyan's uncle maternal clan are quite powerful themselves, the uncles being comrades and fight alongside many of the current court official during the founding father years, their years of building alliances with them, all of these tilted heavily in the Uncle's favor. So even if the Yellow Emperor wanted to give the throne to CX (which he did want to), he knew the power dynamic is too lop-sided that he needed this whole orchestra for CX to grew stronger himself.

2/3. I am aware that was CX plan as well. It was brilliant. Even in the West, we have equivalent that is called the Benjamin Franklin's effect. However, I noticed that CX did miscalculated a little bit in regards to FL's character. He did not anticipated FL to be so short-sighted (despite being quite ambitious). That FL almost wanted to back out. At that point in time, even if CX is a brilliant himself which everyone can see, the odds are greatly against him. Jing knew FL's ambitions better than even CX given they grew up together, so he manipulated FL, gave him the courage to pursue this ambition with CX, and that he would be right alongside supporting him. This greatly boosted FL confident and risk-taking decision to take CX's side, given FL said many times he respect Jing. And we haven't taken into account Jing and FL is blood related, giving both FL and XY more confident for CX.

4/ Even at critical point it was Jing who tell FL to gather the clans, to go see the Emperor and feel him out. It was also Jing that not only cook the book for them two, but also providing the army's material while keeping it under wraps and away from the Uncle's privy eyes. They did mentioned it years ago the Xiyan Emperor army depended on the Tushan clan business to get the things they needed for the war. It was something only the Tushan clan can do it. Without Jing, then they can kiss that army goodbye. The uncles would be on CX throat both money and material.

We have this saying that, starting is half the battle. Well even though that is only a saying but how can all Jing have done to support CX rise be reduced to just 5-10%? When we are supposed to convinced that CX 90% of work is because of his brilliant charms? He did end up being a brilliant leader. But he have to get the chance to prove it first. All his years in the Middle Plains were spent building trust among the clans families. He is the Xiyan's prince, so he is in a way, an enemy to the Middle Plains. He is the blood of the conqueror. That is why the Uncles and even the Yellow Emperor have failed to penetrate this group for over 300 years. They spent hundred of years and can't even get through the door, but CX could because of Jing and FL. So how is this huge help be just 10%. What is the point of your own brilliance if you are never given a chance to show it?

Question for viewers who didn't read the book first. Are you confuse watching the series? What was your expectation going in? What was your first impression of the first 4-5 episodes? I keep seeing comments saying the drama is too slow and confusing. But since I read the book I am very satisfied and understood everything right away. Just curious on non-reader experience watching this drama.

I understand your point, but to reduced Jing's help merely down to "introduction" is rather insulting also, no? CX is capable no doubt, but he own at least 50% of his success to Jing.

Jing did not just introduce FL and the middle plain families to CX. He persuaded them to support CX before CX was able to prove himself. Both Xiyan and Haoling Emperor lay some groundwork but it was up to CX to take the throne by winning the people over. His uncles already got Xiyan court under lock. Haoling court cannot help him. It was Jing idea to win over the Middle Plains families. CX actually lost FL support during the assassination attempt. It was Jing that changed FL and XY mind. They were doubtful about CX, but they went with him BECAUSE of Jing. They know Jing for years, is blood related to him, and trust his judgement. It was also Jing that convinced the 4th major clan (guiling) to support CX. He was also secretly funding FL and CX the whole time.

CX is very capable and his lineage helped him a lot. But remember, the Xiyan uncles actually went to war and is of senior status than him. So in regards to legitimacy, they do have it OVER him. Taking his side is a risk that everyone can see. Who was gonna guarantee him when he hasn't done anything to prove himself yet? It was Jing.

Of course eventually CX proved himself, but FL and XY was helping him for decades before CX was able to prove himself. In the novel, FL only realized how great of a leader CX decades AFTER he became king.

Actually no. Jing convinced FengLong to take CX side. It was in episode 16 I think, after the assassination attempt. FengLong said CX is a nice guy but he is too weak, so FL don't think taking his side is good choice. He can't even protect himself. It was Jing who convinced FL to back CX and move to Shengnong mountains. (spoiler: In the novel, CX and Jing have this conversation later, where FL told Jing he so glad Jing convinced him to back CX because CX end up being a great leader like Jing said.)

Well all our leads are quite extreme, including our FL. But they are also very layered, and not perfect. None of them are. They have their good points but also their shortcomings so it make the story more interesting and the answers not simple. I noticed that everyone has very compelling points no matter what ship they on.

"I can see Tushan Jing working hard to support Cang Xuan for her sake but what does he want for himself? Just her? But there's no man even in our time who doesn't have aspirations of his own outside of the woman he loves."

You brought up a good point that TSJ later address in the novel. He really just wanted her. But he knew nobody would believe him because what man don't have other aspiration, so he pretend he's in it for the money, and to support his buddy. Which everyone bought.

TSJ is in a unique situation. The him before the torture probably is like FengLong and any other men. He grew up in wealth and prestige, everyone admires and look up to him. Even FengLong can't compare to him. So he took everything for granted, until he lost everything and know how it feel to be without his position. So to him, XY is not just the object of his affection, she stand for unconditional love and acceptance. Everybody accept TSJ, but how many really accept Ye Shiqi? I don't think anyone in the novel did. Even his grandma, his only family who supposedly "love" him.

On the surface it look like he just wanted love and XY. But if we look at the psychologically point of view, his aspiration is unconditional acceptance. With others he can only guess, but with XY he know for sure, because he tenderly care for him, a stranger, when he was at his worst. FengLong aspiration is to be a hero, and love by others. TSJ aspiration is to be find true love. They both have their aspirations. And CX, in a twisted way, aspired for power only so he can protect the people he love.

Originally they promised to "marry" each other. But the first episode was dubbed over when it aired to be brother and sister forever.

CX kept giving Jing the death stare and see him as the rival for XY. Even CX in BTS kept making fun of Jing. He's really channeling that jealousy (teasingly) even backstage toward Jing. There's this running joke among fans that CX is "blind" for not recognizing XY. So CX been introducing himself as the "blind" person. BUT while he's been on Jing @ss the whole series, he let XL walk in and steal XY heart too. He's too "blind" to see XL as FFB, and he's been stealing XY left and right. CX thought he's only one person away from XY but he's actually two person away. The ironic thing is CX is suppose to be calculative and Jing supposed to be smart but they both got own by XL when it come to XY. Just thought it was hilariously ironic now that I think about.

The ironic thing I just realized about CX

Drama didn't explain but novel did. Chisui is one of the four major clan, and the mother is the direct descendent. So the father agree that the first male offspring will have Chisui last name and be the Chisui clan leader. This worked out because Chenrong royal family was falling. Having his son as th e next Chisui clan leader is very assuring for the middle plain families who used to follow the Chenrong royal family.

can you drop the link?? tysm

I already came to term with what the author intended for a long time. And XL did what he did because it follow his characters. It just recently occurred to me how everything happened so "timely". Of course it's fictional so things happen right when the author needed it, but I was just toying with what-ifs.

XL cannot abandoned the army or Gongong because he's loyal to death. This is his biggest "flaw" and why he and XY cannot be together. CX and the Yellow Emperor is okay with XY being with him if he just let go of the army, so they have no problem with him being a demon, or his past.

Again, he sacrificed so much XY also because of this "flawed loyalty". In a way, XL was able to stay true to his character before dying. But what if he can't? What if the war happened before he could revive Jing? Or what if the war happened when Jing is already dead?

XL don't need to ask what XY wants or need. He already knows. And he knew if Jing is already dead, and he died too, XY will died and there will be no one left to revive her. Will he sleep well and make the decision to die anyway on the battlefield? The XL we know would not/can not do that. This is against his character setup - he do not abandon the people he love.

By the end of the book, we know XY have given XL plenty of times more to express her hidden attraction toward him. He always pushed her away. But when it come to XY's safety and livelihood, XL do not play and always show up. So whether at that point, they could be honest with each other or not is beside the point. I think XL would have use all his live on the battlefield, and save one last one to come back to XY. He is just too loyal to die peacefully knowing XY still needs him. Again, I'm just playing with what-ifs.