6 minutes agosolarlunareclipse:
liddi:
My opinion is that Tong Hua deliberately used 他 "he" here to indicate that the big-bellied laughing doll was that of a boy doll. Using 它 would be equivalent to "it", which is ambiguous. And assuming that the 他 refers to A Bi makes no sense as we are told that she cannot help but laugh when she looked at the doll's impish demeanour.
It definitely could be exactly what you described. However, to me the usage of 他 to specifically identify the gender of the doll is suspicious because there is nothing in the description of the doll to definitively identify it as a boy rather than an girl. AH also cross-referenced XL's epilogue, but that doesn't identify the gender of the doll. Why is it important for Tong Hua to identify the gender of the doll, almost as an afterthought?
@Liddi,
do you mean that the doll is a boy-doll?
I think your accient folk picture also helped to explain.
I also have links to similar ancient folk pictures in Vietnam (below). image Boy holding certain kind of animal is usually depicted on such picture for wishing happiness, productivity etc
Only in our modern time or under the influence of Western culture, by default we always think doll is girl and used for playing. I think in the eastern culture, boy doll might be more common and used to convey wishes. Thus, it's reasonable that the doll that XL made was a boy
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This article says that the diminutive form 兜兜 doudou is particularly used to refer to the 肚兜 dudou worn by children. This is not to say a child can't wear a 肚兜, but not using 兜兜 means it's possible that the doll is not a child. If the doll is indeed meant to be a child, I find it suspicious that a child is wearing a pomegranate patterned dudou since pomegranates are used to symbolize fertility.
While 兜兜 doudou may be used to refer to those worn by children, 肚兜 dudou is the generic term of the garment that is worn by either women or young children. As such, I do not believe that there is a significance that Tong Hua used dudou rather than doudou.
"Infants would wear dudou, which was embroidered with luck charms, as their only clothing in hot summer months until they reach the age of two to three years old." -- Wiki
"In Guanzhong area in Shanxi, dudou is a part of life rituals. When a woman is pregnant, her mother and husband's family would sew a dudou for the unborn baby. During the Dragon Boat festival, uncles would give a gift of dudou to their sisters' young sons." -- translated from Baike
Pomegranate is an auspicious symbol that means "abundance in all things", particularly sons. This is normally a blessing given to couples on their wedding, for them to have many children. As such, in my opinion, it makes sense to have the symbol of a pomegranate on a boy doll as a wedding gift.
I agree with all of this. It aligns with my interpretation of chapter 51.AH :
Yes. At the moment, I am not convinced that it means anything more than what we interpret on the surface...
do you mean that the doll is a boy-doll?H19279:
Yes, the original Chinese text specifically indicates that it is a "he". This coupled with the symbol of the pomegranate on the dudou, would be blessings to have an abundance of sons (children), which is very traditional well-wishes for newlyweds.
I also have links to similar ancient folk pictures in Vietnam (below). image Boy holding certain kind of animal is usually depicted on such picture for wishing happiness, productivity etc
Are these Vietnamese folk pictures? I see the traditional Chinese words 富貴 (prosperity) but am not so sure about the other picture - it appears to be 茶花 (camellias) which is a symbol of love and devotion. Does the Vietnamese language also use Chinese characters?
Are these Vietnamese folk pictures? I see the traditional Chinese words 富貴 (prosperity) but am not so sure about the other picture - it appears to be 茶花 (camellias) which is a symbol of love and devotion. Does the Vietnamese language also use Chinese characters?liddi:
Yes, in the past there were 2 type of writing system in Vietnam: Chinese and later a kind of chinese based letter with certain modification to reflect the vietnamese sound which was called Nom letter. Chinese letters were still used in most of monachy dynasty as official letter. I think the letters used in those folk pitures is Nom letter. Most of temples, pagodas in Vietnam had carved letters, labels etc in Chinese or maybe Nom which most of us don't understand
The Latin based writing system was developed from 1500s by catholic priests and it only became official writting method since 1945 althought many newpapers, books, documment were published using latin based writing system since the late 1800s
How did you ladies came to LYF? Did you read the book first or the drama? If it's via the novel how many times have you read it and did your opinions changed with re-reads? And if it's the drama, have you read the book and how did that impact your view of the drama? We're they very different to you?HeadInTheClouds:
I first read the novel a few years ago, and took quite a long time to come out of the cloud of sadness I was under after that. When the adaptation was announced, I actually dragged my feet and did not watch until at least 6 episodes later. My reluctance stemmed from being scarred by previous adaptations after the excellent BBJX, all of which failed to live up to my expectations. I was also either pretty ambivalent about the cast, or unfamiliar with their works. After my mum kept asking me to join her, I finally did and was irrevocably hooked. In addition to the predominantly spot-on casting, I love how S1 was faithful to the novel for the most part - recreating so many classic scenes almost word for word. However, I was also inevitably frustrated by scenes that were either watered down, strangely interpreted or totally removed.
I've re-read the novel since the drama, seeing scenes with new eyes, especially after the discussions here and on Weibo. The snake in grass, lines on dust technique, and the analysis of the poems used in the chapter titles and their origins allowed me to appreciate anew how cleverly Tong Hua wrote, hiding a love line in plain sight. However, some of my initial impressions remain unchanged. Xiang Liu as a man, and the way he loved Xiao Yao - we rail at him for refusing to say anything, yet I love him exactly because he is a man of integrity, who would never offer up a promise he could never keep, and would give his all to fulfil what he has pledged. How his love empowers her, rather than coddles, because he is practical and wants her to go on to have a good life when the time comes and he has to leave. It speaks so much to Tong Hua's brilliance that she painted such a searing, unforgettable picture of him in our hearts with so few lines, while so often obfuscating his thoughts and motives. I've since bought both editions of the novel as well as the manhua in the attempt to analyse what changed, and I suspect this will go on for some time. But time and again, I feel the need to walk away for a while, because the novel still manages to elicit pain, just when I think that I have moved way past it, even though I have accepted what cannot be changed.
Only in our modern time or under the influence of Western culture, by default we always think doll is girl and used for playing. I think in the eastern culture, boy doll might be more common and used to convey wishes. Thus, it's reasonable that the doll that XL made was a boy
This is making me think of Mahoraga dolls for Qixi Festival.
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Mahoraga dolls, a type of figurine showing a child holding a lotus leaf, are sacrifice utensils that were commonly used in the Qixi Festival to pray for reproduction throughout the Song Dynasty in China.
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Mahoraga dolls, a kind of figurine showing a child holding a lotus leaf, were popularized nationwide throughout the Song Dynasty (960–1279), one of the most prosperous periods of Chinese history. Mahoraga has several Chinese names in different regions, such as “Mohele” 磨喝乐, “Mohouluo” 摩睺罗, and “Moheluo” 磨合罗, along with different Chinese characters, due to its different transliterations, which also reflects the scope of its popularity. Mahoraga dolls gradually faded from the historical stage and were barely seen in the Ming and Qing Dynasties (1368–1912).
...
3. The Religious Allegory of Holding a Lotus Leaf Shape
The iconic symbol of Mahoraga is a child holding a lotus leaf in their hand. According to archaeological discoveries and the available written records, most of the Mahoraga dolls were boys and few were girls, and girl Mahoraga dolls were usually made to pair with boy ones. Additionally, we would like to focus on the Mahoraga figurines worshipped during Qixi Festivals, excluding other forms of child-holding-lotus figures, such as porcelain vases, jade pendants, and other jade accessories, on which girl images were often depicted. In fact, child patterns were not rare in ancient China and can be traced back to the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD). These were not designed to reflect children’s lives but to convey the Chinese worship of procreation as well as the moral values relating to the family (Huo 2017, pp. 25–30). Until Wei, Jin, Northern, and Southern Dynasties (220–420 AD), this longing became clearer with the preference for boys under the development of an agricultural civilization. In the Tang Dynasty (618–907), child-holding-lotus patterns relating to this religious allegory were frequently used on Songzi Kuanyin statues (Rong 2013, pp. 245–76), which can be further proven as this typical Mahoraga figure was not only seen on figurines used in worship but also on ceramic stools used around Qixi Festivals (Figure 5).
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This fertility symbolism of the lotus coincides with the use of Mahoraga dolls, as Mahoraga was often worshipped when praying for offspring, which also explains why Mahoraga figurines are usually depicted with a lotus in their hands.
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The Chinese version of Valentine’s Day is the Oixi Festival that is celebrated on the 7th day of the 7th lunar month. Among the many Qixi Festival traditions, some have gradually disappeared, but quite a few still continue. Let’s have a look.
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17. Consecrate Mohele, the Qixi Mascot
A Mohele is a small children’s doll that was popular in the Qixi Festival during the Song Dynasty (960 - 1279). In the Song Dynasty, people not only considered Mohele a symbol of the Qixi Festival, but also increased the size and proportion of the doll making it easier to play with.
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Originating from Buddhism, "Mahira", also called Mohuluo, evolved into the image of a boy and became a sacrifice for the Qixi Festival. During the Song and Jin Dynasties, this kind of sacrifice evolved into a popular doll.
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The ancient Qixi Festival was a women's festival. The theme of Qixi Festival was not only begging for cleverness, but also the pursuit of children. In the Song Dynasty, on the Chinese Valentine's Day, Mohuluo was given as a gift to the newlyweds as a blessing for having a child. The function of this custom was to pray for children and men.
Of course, on the Qixi Festival, Mohuluo is not only an offering, but also a toy for children. Affected by the social "entertainment" and "enjoyment" thoughts of the Song Dynasty, while retaining the worship function of grinding and drinking music, it turned to gamification and entertainment.
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The Double Seven Festival, otherwise known as Qixi Festival (七夕节) or Chinese Valentine’s Day, was certainly no exception. Come the seventh evening of the seventh lunar month, rich and noble families would have their women gather up in the courtyard to “beg for skills in craftmanship” by performing rituals like threading seven needles in front of a special shrine. Here’s the thing, though—the shrines did not feature the Niulang and Zhinü duo, nor the Seventh Sister, the protector of all lovers, women, and children. Instead, they’d house a darling clay figurine of a child holding a lotus leaf.
This was, in fact, a sacrifice utensil commonly used in the Double Seven Festival to worship and pray for fertility. Though these were properly known as Mahoraga dolls, they had several Chinese names depending on the region, one of them being “Mohele (磨喝乐)” and its variant Moluo.
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In the feudal Song dynasty, worshipping Mahākāla implied the longing for a male child.
Meng Yuanlao (孟元老), a Song dynasty prose writer, described in his famous memoir The Eastern Capital: A Dream of Splendor (《东京梦华录》) that on the day of the Qixi Festival, Mohele clay dolls can be found all over the city of Kaifeng.
Yes, in the past there were 2 type of writing system in Vietnam: Chinese and later a kind of chinese based letter with certain modification to reflect the vietnamese sound which was called Nom letter. Chinese letters were still used in most of monachy dynasty as official letter. I think the letters used in those folk pitures is Nom letter. Most of temples, pagodas in Vietnam had carved letters, labels etc in Chinese or maybe Nom which most of us don't understand
The Latin based writing system was developed from 1500s by catholic priests and it only became official writting method since 1945 althought many newpapers, books, documment were published using latin based writing system since the late 1800s
@liddi
The romanized Hmong writing system (RPA) was also developed by catholic priests. Before that, the Hmong written language was lost through many wars, rebellions and unrest between and during ancient Chinese dynasties, and for a long time, Hmong used Chinese characters too.
plor20:
@liddi
The romanized Hmong writing system (RPA) was also developed by catholic priests. Before that, the Hmong written language was lost through many wars, rebellions and unrest between and during ancient Chinese dynasties, and for a long time, Hmong used Chinese characters too.
Hmong people also inhabit in the mountain area in the North of Vietnam (by the border with China). From the document films on TV, I don't think they have romanized writing system. The letters that they use also looks very strange. I think The Hmong people in Vietnam have some connection with other Hmong groups which distribute in China, Laos, Thailand, Myanmar
Hmong people also inhabit in the mountain area in the North of Vietnam (by the border with China). From the document films on TV, I don't think they have romanized writing system. The letters that they use also looks very strange. I think The Hmong people in Vietnam have some connection with other Hmong group which distribute in China, Laos, Thailand (maybe in Myanmar too)
There are several writing systems used by the Hmong (all depends on thier geographical location): Chengbu Stele Writing, Xiangxi Square Hmong Writing, Pollard Script, Hutton Script, Romanized Popular Alphabet (RPA), Pahawh Hmong Writing, Chinese Romanized Alphabet.
The one I used is the RPA, and it's the most common one, and it's even being taught in China I believe. My guess is the one you mentiom must be either the Chengbu, Xiangxi or maybe the Hutton (all of which I've have never seen). The ones I am familiar with are the Pollard and Pahawh. I am not even sure how Hmong could be written with Mandarin pinyin considering we have 6 tones.
For the most part, I believe, most Hmong who can read and write Hmong, can read and write the RPA.
小 (Xiao) means little, 夭 (Yao) means something to do with peach blossoms? I read somewhere that it comes from a line of poetry: "桃之夭夭，灼灼其华", but not sure where this poem is mentioned. Also not sure how the character 夭 (Yao) has anything to do the character 桃 (Tao) - peach. Xiao Yao's parents pledged their love under a peach blossom tree. Xiao Yao also has a peach blossom birthmark on her head. 夭 (Yao) can also mean to die prematurely. I guess Xiao Yao's parents died prematurely, but I'm not sure this meaning is intensional. Not sure if Once Promised talks about the origin of her name. 夭 (Yao) is also one of the radicals in 妖 (Yao) - demon. 九头妖 (Jiu Tou Yao), nine headed demon, is one of Xiang Liu's nicknames.
Xiao Yao was the called name that Ah Heng and Shao Hao gave to her due to the "birth mark" in the shape of peach blossom on her forehead. That birth mark was actually the Face Retention Pillar which helped the holder to change her/his appearance. Because of the peach blossom shape, her name was inspired from the poem 桃夭 (from classic of poetry). This poem was used for the title of chapter 13 (Vol 1) after she got back her real appearance thank to the Royal Mother and King Haoling organised big event to welcome the return of the great princess of Haoling. Detail of the poem can be found here https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/121175-poems-that-was-used-for-chapter-titles-in-the-novel?pid=2857741&page=2#p2857741
I think the word yao (夭) in this case means fresh, young, lush.
Thanks H19279 and plor20 . Incorporated your feedback into the original post.
I don't think it has anything to do with the ear radical.
"卩" is the hard ear radical. It is found in the character 柳 (Liu). This is important because characters related to Xiang Liu often contain the ear radical.
Yes, in the past there were 2 type of writing system in Vietnam: Chinese and later a kind of chinese based letter with certain modification to reflect the vietnamese sound which was called Nom letter. Chinese letters were still used in most of monachy dynasty as official letter. I think the letters used in those folk pitures is Nom letter. Most of temples, pagodas in Vietnam had carved letters, labels etc in Chinese or maybe Nom which most of us don't understand
Thank you very much for sharing about the Nom script, which Wiki provided a fascinating read. I can now understand why I had trouble deciphering the first word in the first picture yesterday. Based on what you said, does it mean that Vietnamese text is predominantly romanised, and the Nom script is an obscure writing system that is no longer used?
The romanized Hmong writing system (RPA) was also developed by catholic priests. Before that, the Hmong written language was lost through many wars, rebellions and unrest between and during ancient Chinese dynasties, and for a long time, Hmong used Chinese characters too.
There are several writing systems used by the Hmong (all depends on thier geographical location): Chengbu Stele Writing, Xiangxi Square Hmong Writing, Pollard Script, Hutton Script, Romanized Popular Alphabet (RPA), Pahawh Hmong Writing, Chinese Romanized Alphabet.
Are Hmong people from different locations able to understand others with all the different writing systems? How about the spoken language? Are they all the same, regardless of location? Or are they like the Chinese with different dialects depending on their place of origin?
This is making me think of Mahoraga dolls for Qixi Festival.
That is an interesting observation - not sure if what Xiang Liu carved was meant to be a 磨喝乐 Mohele, but its symbolism is close. Certainly, from Xiao Yao's remark, it was a doll that should be commonplace enough as a wedding gift - a boy doll with a symbol of abundant children on the dudou - except for the unexpectedly large belly, which caught her by surprise. It is evident how much care he took into choosing that final gift - carrying his blessings and wishes for her which will remain forever hidden, while serving to be a source of mirth and bring her joy with its mischievous, outward appearance at the same time.
It's interesting to note that Wen Xiao Liu, Jiu Yao, Cang Xuan, and Tu Shang Jing all contain the jade radical (?) in their names. Characters associated with them also often contain the jade radical in their names. Meanwhile, Xiang Liu, and characters associated with him often contain the wood (木) or ear (阝,卩) radicals in their names.
Commendable effort on this compilation!
Just a word of caution. Do be careful about reading too much into the symbolism of radicals and how it associates to different factions - the Xiang Liu camp vs the rest etc. It is overly simplistic to just draw a line and say that they are related to Xiang Liu based on the radical alone, whether it is 木,卩 or 阝.
For example the 阿 “A" in 阿念 A Nian is simply a word that is commonly added to a first name or surname as a term of endearment. It has no meaning at all and the "阝" 双耳旁 two ear radical component should not be interpreted to mean anything more than that. The same word is used when referring to Xiao Yao's mother 阿珩 A Heng, whose real name is 轩辕妭 Xuan Yuan Ba. By the same token, the word 小 (xiao) is often used as a term of endearment as well e.g. 小夭 Xiao Yao, when her real name is 玖瑶 Jiu Yao.
Another example is 共工 Gong Gong, later called 洪江 Hong Jiang, who is arguably the closest person to Xiang Liu, with the exception of Xiao Yao. In mythology, Gong Gong was a water god, and Tong Hua reflected the water reference in his revised name. However, regardless of which version we look at, there is no correlation between Gong Gong/Hong Jiang and the 木,卩 or 阝radicals.
As for the use of the ⺩(玉 jade) radical, do note the following. Some of the names were revised in the 2019 edition. 玱玹 Cang Xuan was revised from the original 颛顼 Zhuan Xu, an actual mythological figure. The original meaning of 颛 zhuan is "round headed", which refers to middle-aged nobles, by extension decent, law-abiding people, and by further extension, social elites. The word 顼 xu is made up of 玉 (jade) and 页 (head), which combines to mean "the one who wears the jade crown". So the entire name Zhuan Xu carries the meaning "the one who wears the jade crown among the social elite", in other words "the head of the aristocracy".
In the case of 玱玹 Cang Xuan, 玖瑶 Jiu Yao and even 璟 Jing, it is not unusual for those among the nobility to be given names that reflect their elevated status. A Nian is an exception to this rule since her formal name and pet name was given by the Gao Xin king to express how he misses Xiao Yao's mother.
海棠 Hai Tang, 春桃 Chun Tao, 苗圃 Miao Pu are commonplace names that refers to regular items. 苗圃 can actually mean a seedling nursery. 苗 in itself can also be a surname (there is actually a Chinese actress by the exact name Miao Pu as well). I am not convinced that 串子 Chuan Zi and 麻子 are more than just names pulled from the sky with no particular meaning.
I have read some theories about the meaning of names, which should be taken with a grain of salt.
One that was floating around Weibo was how the total number of strokes in Fangfeng Bei (防风邶), Cang Xuan (玱玹) and Bao Zhu 宝柱 (the mysterious neighbour of Huichun clinic) all add up to 17. The theory was that if not for fate having a joke at their expense, each of them could have been the 十七 Shiqi that Xiao Yao wanted to marry. This theory falls apart in two main aspects:
1. The number of strokes they are counting is based on simplified Chinese characters. In traditional Chinese, the number of strokes would have been more than 17 to begin with e.g.
防风邶 (17) vs 防風邶 (22)
玱玹 (17) vs 瑲玹 (23)
宝柱 (17) vs 寶柱 (29)
2. Cang Xuan was not originally Cang Xuan to begin with, but Zhuan Xu, which even in simplified Chinese, was already 25 strokes, not 17.
Another one is related to the ear radical surrounding Xiang Liu, Fangfeng Bei and Left Ear, which I translated in p362.
For Xiang Liu's 柳 Liu, the name of the radical 卩 is 单耳旁 Single Ear Component
For Fangfeng Bei's 邶 Bei, the name of the radical 阝 is 双耳旁 Two Ears Component
The characters in the name 相柳 Xiang Liu only has one ear (卩) while 防风邶 Fangfeng Bei has two ears (阝)*. Please note the position of the two ears. When compared to Fangfeng Bei, [the word] Xiang Liu does not have a left ear [e.g. the radical is not placed on the left side of the word].
Xiao Yao was the one who gave Left Ear his name. Since he did not have a left ear, he was called Left Ear. Many people said that Left Ear is the shadow of Xiang Liu. Left Ear asked Xiao Yao, "Will I become Xiang Liu?", to which Xiao Yao replied, "I preferred [you became] Bei."
This one feels a little more convincing, though I do not subscribe to the theory that the ear or wood 木radical implication extends to every other character that has it. If the wood radical theory is correct, by extension 老木 Lao Mu should also be in Xiang Liu's camp, but he clearly is not. In addition, do not forget that the name 相柳 Xiang Liu is the actual name of the mythological character. The word 相 can mean "minister", which is in keeping with his position as a minister under Gong Gong's service, and has nothing to do with wood.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
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