Of course it does, that’s why we’re all flocking around this one gem. I’ll have to think through the differences,…
Oh—OH—ohhhhhhhhh, wait a second. 😭 So you were referring to kreplach’s comment all along, and not mine and my “Taste matures with age” note? My being heavily distracted at the moment apparently made the possibility that your rhetorical question wasn't directed at me fail to register completely. So that misunderstanding is mostly, if not entirely, on me. My bad. 😢 My apologies again. 🙏
I did actually have some doubts about the “taste matures with age” line myself, which is probably why I overreacted to your comment. I can see how it could be perceived as ageist or condescending on its own. What I meant by it was more self-reflective: I don't expect a 20-year-old to have exactly the same tastes as they will at 35, just as I wouldn't expect a 20-year-old to still be playing with Barbies unless they're a collector or have some particular reason to. The same can apply to one's taste in men, characters, relationships, etc. So I meant it as an observation about how taste can change with age, rather than “older people have better taste.”
As for the broader point you made about the way age-gap relationships are talked about: this is actually the first time I've thought about it as a broader trend. I loved OFC very much myself, so I didn't read “dirty old man” and “awful old geezer” in the most insulting possible way; I took them as hyperbole, basically an exaggerated way of saying that Nozue gave them an unpleasant/creepy impression. I wasn't thinking of it as an actual ageist characterization.
I do agree that age gaps seem to be a particularly easy target for people to make derogatory comments about. And I think there's an interesting inconsistency here specifically. If the age-gap aspect is what makes Nozue/Togawa “dirty old man” territory, then I'm not entirely sure how that distinction works in this case compared with the series we're discussing now. Kreplach has repeatedly expressed excitement about this series, while also apparently finding the age dynamic in OFC objectionable.
I'm actually not certain what the fictional age gap in this series is, so I don't want to make a factual claim there. But the actors themselves are 22 and 34, whereas Kimura Tatsunari was 28 and Takeda Kouhei was 36/37 in OFC — so the real-life age differences are actually larger in this series. OFC has the explicitly stated ten-year fictional gap, whereas Takoi is 38 while Shiono is in his twenties? So if the reaction is based on the apparent age dynamic rather than the actual ages, that makes me think the issue is more about how the characters are perceived visually than about the age gap itself.
And that's also why I didn't read kreplach's comment as a particularly well-thought-out age argument. To me, Nozue comes across as quiet, reflective, introverted and emotionally closed-off, whereas Takoi is much more constantly searching, exploratory and prone to impulsive, poorly thought-through fuck-ups, which can make him seem younger or more childish. Those are very different character impressions, regardless of the actual ages involved.
So I was trying to give kreplach several possible explanations for why they perceived Nozue that way rather than assuming the worst possible interpretation. They just chose not to respond.
I also think there is something particular about ageism that makes it less immediately recognizable to people than racism or homophobia. Young people make up a large proportion of the people who watch dramas and have the time and inclination to comment on them, but they generally don't have much personal experience of being treated as “old” or having their attractiveness, competence, relevance, sexuality, etc. dismissed specifically because of their age. And being told that you're “too young” to do or understand something is so deeply normalized throughout childhood and adolescence — by parents, teachers, authorities, older relatives, etc. — that people may simply experience it as part of growing up rather than recognize when it crosses over into age-based prejudice.
That's probably also why ageism is still so strongly associated with prejudice against older people. Obviously, in the broader sense it can work in either direction, but I don't think those two directions have historically been equally visible or equally discussed. Most people have experience of being young, but they don't have experience of being older until they actually get there. So they may have much more of an instinctive understanding of the injustice involved in being judged for something like race or sexuality — things they know they have no say in — than of being judged for age, because age is something everyone moves through and a lot of age-based hierarchy gets normalized from childhood.
And unfortunately, I have increasingly seen young people internalizing very strong ideas about what age gaps in relationships are supposedly acceptable, including real-life relationships between fully adult people, and then speaking publicly about them. So perhaps this really will become something that gets discussed much more explicitly as ageism in the future.
That also ties into why I don't think I was being “lenient” with kreplach. I think I simply analyzed the situation using different indicators than you did and came to a different conclusion. I looked at the actual ages involved, the characters, the actors, the characterization, and the possibility that this was primarily a matter of personal preference or an unexamined preference. And if I'm correct that they're younger, then I can understand even the somewhat excited language they used — they may have been expressing something they hadn't really examined or perhaps hadn't even intended to formulate quite so bluntly.
If they really do carry the beliefs you're worried they carry, I don't think me being sharper with them or disagreeing with them more aggressively would change those beliefs. And if I'm right that they're younger and simply haven't reflected on their own preferences and the facts very carefully yet, I don't think there's any particular benefit in demonizing them for it either. Especially if I might actually be older than the person who fucked up in a comment section, I don't think being nasty and sharp with them is particularly useful or reasonable.
I'd rather point out where their logic fails and show them that their argument doesn't hold together as well as they perhaps thought it did. And if I can do that while also modelling how I think someone should respond to this kind of thing, perhaps they'll be more likely to question themselves the next time they watch, assess, and comment on another person, character, relationship, or feeling. It's really not necessary to destroy everyone with our words. If we can help it, I think it's much more effective to be an example of how to do better. Don't you think so?
Of course it does, that’s why we’re all flocking around this one gem. I’ll have to think through the differences,…
Oh—OH—ohhhhhhhhh, wait a second. Were you referring to kreplach’s comment all this time, and not mine and my “Taste matures with age” note? I completely misunderstood what you meant. 😢😢😢 My bad — I thought you were calling my comment ageist. Apologies!
Btw which couple's story is your favourite??😃Mine was #Hiroyanna
hmmm, The Rain in Espana was probably my top, thanks to which i loved Safe Skies, Archer and Chasing in the Wild. I have yet Golden Scenery of Tomorrow to conquer. And U? :)
anmvrrrrm, ty, ty, i need to make up for the holes in my life after so many good series finished airing - it is painful sunday and now wednesdays too 😢 so gud to know! <3 🙏🙏🙏
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I did actually have some doubts about the “taste matures with age” line myself, which is probably why I overreacted to your comment. I can see how it could be perceived as ageist or condescending on its own. What I meant by it was more self-reflective: I don't expect a 20-year-old to have exactly the same tastes as they will at 35, just as I wouldn't expect a 20-year-old to still be playing with Barbies unless they're a collector or have some particular reason to. The same can apply to one's taste in men, characters, relationships, etc. So I meant it as an observation about how taste can change with age, rather than “older people have better taste.”
As for the broader point you made about the way age-gap relationships are talked about: this is actually the first time I've thought about it as a broader trend. I loved OFC very much myself, so I didn't read “dirty old man” and “awful old geezer” in the most insulting possible way; I took them as hyperbole, basically an exaggerated way of saying that Nozue gave them an unpleasant/creepy impression. I wasn't thinking of it as an actual ageist characterization.
I do agree that age gaps seem to be a particularly easy target for people to make derogatory comments about. And I think there's an interesting inconsistency here specifically. If the age-gap aspect is what makes Nozue/Togawa “dirty old man” territory, then I'm not entirely sure how that distinction works in this case compared with the series we're discussing now. Kreplach has repeatedly expressed excitement about this series, while also apparently finding the age dynamic in OFC objectionable.
I'm actually not certain what the fictional age gap in this series is, so I don't want to make a factual claim there. But the actors themselves are 22 and 34, whereas Kimura Tatsunari was 28 and Takeda Kouhei was 36/37 in OFC — so the real-life age differences are actually larger in this series. OFC has the explicitly stated ten-year fictional gap, whereas Takoi is 38 while Shiono is in his twenties? So if the reaction is based on the apparent age dynamic rather than the actual ages, that makes me think the issue is more about how the characters are perceived visually than about the age gap itself.
And that's also why I didn't read kreplach's comment as a particularly well-thought-out age argument. To me, Nozue comes across as quiet, reflective, introverted and emotionally closed-off, whereas Takoi is much more constantly searching, exploratory and prone to impulsive, poorly thought-through fuck-ups, which can make him seem younger or more childish. Those are very different character impressions, regardless of the actual ages involved.
So I was trying to give kreplach several possible explanations for why they perceived Nozue that way rather than assuming the worst possible interpretation. They just chose not to respond.
I also think there is something particular about ageism that makes it less immediately recognizable to people than racism or homophobia. Young people make up a large proportion of the people who watch dramas and have the time and inclination to comment on them, but they generally don't have much personal experience of being treated as “old” or having their attractiveness, competence, relevance, sexuality, etc. dismissed specifically because of their age. And being told that you're “too young” to do or understand something is so deeply normalized throughout childhood and adolescence — by parents, teachers, authorities, older relatives, etc. — that people may simply experience it as part of growing up rather than recognize when it crosses over into age-based prejudice.
That's probably also why ageism is still so strongly associated with prejudice against older people. Obviously, in the broader sense it can work in either direction, but I don't think those two directions have historically been equally visible or equally discussed. Most people have experience of being young, but they don't have experience of being older until they actually get there. So they may have much more of an instinctive understanding of the injustice involved in being judged for something like race or sexuality — things they know they have no say in — than of being judged for age, because age is something everyone moves through and a lot of age-based hierarchy gets normalized from childhood.
And unfortunately, I have increasingly seen young people internalizing very strong ideas about what age gaps in relationships are supposedly acceptable, including real-life relationships between fully adult people, and then speaking publicly about them. So perhaps this really will become something that gets discussed much more explicitly as ageism in the future.
That also ties into why I don't think I was being “lenient” with kreplach. I think I simply analyzed the situation using different indicators than you did and came to a different conclusion. I looked at the actual ages involved, the characters, the actors, the characterization, and the possibility that this was primarily a matter of personal preference or an unexamined preference. And if I'm correct that they're younger, then I can understand even the somewhat excited language they used — they may have been expressing something they hadn't really examined or perhaps hadn't even intended to formulate quite so bluntly.
If they really do carry the beliefs you're worried they carry, I don't think me being sharper with them or disagreeing with them more aggressively would change those beliefs. And if I'm right that they're younger and simply haven't reflected on their own preferences and the facts very carefully yet, I don't think there's any particular benefit in demonizing them for it either. Especially if I might actually be older than the person who fucked up in a comment section, I don't think being nasty and sharp with them is particularly useful or reasonable.
I'd rather point out where their logic fails and show them that their argument doesn't hold together as well as they perhaps thought it did. And if I can do that while also modelling how I think someone should respond to this kind of thing, perhaps they'll be more likely to question themselves the next time they watch, assess, and comment on another person, character, relationship, or feeling. It's really not necessary to destroy everyone with our words. If we can help it, I think it's much more effective to be an example of how to do better. Don't you think so?