Since XL had to feel everything that XY felt in the chapters that dealt with her heartbreak after breaking up with TSJ, I felt like her pain probably factored into his determination to keep XY in the dark about many of the things he did for her and to erase the memories of him that she saved in her gorilla spirit mirror.AH :
@blimarch Tagging you too as I am only slowly now backtracking the thread and MDL does not allow me to quote multiple comments from different pages in the same post.
Agreed. Knowing the state of the lover's bug, he is aware how she feels for him. And he would spare her or at least alleviate that pain by forcibly making her hate him, and cutting all traces of himself from her life.
I think I expressed myself poorly earlier on when I said "My take is that he expected that after all the apparent cruelty he showed her, especially the last time she saw him, there would be no love left for him in her, only hatred." What I really meant to say was that he expected her to hate him, without any more lingering tenderness or hope on her part. Remember what she once said to Cang Xuan, that by not holding out any hope, there is no disappointment. And once he forcibly destroyed the bugs, he in effect sets her free to be able to totally cut him out of her life without any risk of repercussions from the bug. What he perhaps did not factor in his meticulously crafted plans, was that in spite of everything he did, everything he made Xiao Yao believe about him, that deeply buried place that he held in her heart still remained unchanged, and it still failed to protect her from being shattered by his death.
What one person sees as pointless, another may sees as absolutely meaningful. I don't XL as suicidal and looking for death, it just happened to be the outcome for the choice that he made in standing with the resistance army till the end. His comment about how as long as there are beautiful sights to look at, life is worth living tells you that he's someone who appreciate life.HeadInTheClouds:
I concur. We see this during their first date under the moonlight, his words an encouragement to her to cherish life; and we see it again in Tong Hua's descriptions of her times with Fangfeng Bei:
In the past two years, the two of them accompanied each other to explore every nook and cranny of Xuan Yuan city. He would sometimes disappear, then sometimes appear, carefree and spontaneous. Xiao Yao felt that they could continue playing together for an eternity because they were too similar. They cared for nothing, were willing to try anything, interested in all things, and everything could make them smile. They appreciated all that was beautiful but wanted to own none of it. Their lives were at the juncture of light and darkness. If they chose to face the light, behind them were thousands of miles of desolation. If they chose to face the darkness, behind them was the glittering splendour of the world. But even if they faced the light, they were still stepped in darkness. It was not that they could not understand what it was to be in pure light, but they could never forget all the pain they experienced before, the pain that followed them like a shadow. They were strong, independent, indifferent, so no matter what they encountered, they could go on living well.
That was the real Xiang Liu, unfettered by responsibilities and bonds of gratitude, so similar with Xiao Yao. The only difference is that he made his pledge long ago to stand by the Shen Nong resistance army, and once he gave his word, he would never renege on it.
Elise:
Agreed. Knowing the state of the lover's bug, he is aware how she feels for him. And he would spare her or at least alleviate that pain by forcibly making her hate him, and cutting all traces of himself from her life.liddi:
I think I expressed myself poorly earlier on when I said "My take is that he expected that after all the apparent cruelty he showed her, especially the last time she saw him, there would be no love left for him in her, only hatred." What I really meant to say was that he expected her to hate him, without any more lingering tenderness or hope on her part. Remember what she once said to Cang Xuan, that by not holding out any hope, there is no disappointment. And once he forcibly destroyed the bugs, he in effect sets her free to be able to totally cut him out of her life without any risk of repercussions from the bug. What he perhaps did not factor in his meticulously crafted plans, was that in spite of everything he did, everything he made Xiao Yao believe about him, that deeply buried place that he held in her heart still remained unchanged, and it still failed to protect her from being shattered by his death.
I agree, although "unchanged" and "failed" are probably not the words I would use since I tend to avoid absolutes.
Even though I agree that XY clearly still cared for XL deeply in the end, despite everything he did, and was still in great pain after learning of his death, I like to think that XL's efforts did have some effect, and therefore weren't in vain. That XY was spared a certain additional degree of pain that she would've felt if XL had acted differently.
Maybe we're on the same page, but IMO her heart remained "unchanged" in the sense that she still cared for him deeply. And he "failed to protect her from being shattered by his death" in the sense that she was still deeply hurt by his death. But, despite all of that being true, her pain would have been even greater if he had not made such great efforts to try to lessen her feelings. So he did succeed in sparing her some pain. And although he might not have spared her from as much pain as he expected, he probably knew he wouldn't be able to ensure that she would feel nothing at all when he died. I think he would still consider sparing her from "some" degree of pain to be worth his efforts.
In the past two years, the two of them accompanied each other to explore every nook and cranny of Xuan Yuan city. He would sometimes disappear, then sometimes appear, carefree and spontaneous. Xiao Yao felt that they could continue playing together for an eternity because they were too similar. They cared for nothing, were willing to try anything, interested in all things, and everything could make them smile. They appreciated all that was beautiful but wanted to own none of it. Their lives were at the juncture of light and darkness. If they chose to face the light, behind them were thousands of miles of desolation. If they chose to face the darkness, behind them was the glittering splendour of the world. But even if they faced the light, they were still stepped in darkness. It was not that they could not understand what it was to be in pure light, but they could never forget all the pain they experienced before, the pain that followed them like a shadow. They were strong, independent, indifferent, so no matter what they encountered, they could go on living well.
One of my absolute favourite passages from one of my favourite chapters. Love the emphasis on their similarities (the pain they both carry, their ability to appreciate beautiful things without having the need or desire to own them, their interest and willingness to try anything) and the fact that Xiao Yao felt like they could have continued like that forever. Especially since these are XY's memories, thoughts and feelings as she stares at FFB in her bed the morning after confirming that he is XL, culminating with the next emotionally-loaded line:
Last night when she knew for sure he was Xiang Liu, she wasn’t surprised or shocked in the least. It felt like it was always this way, and this heavy burden in the corner of her heart was lifted, though another burden had arisen.
Even though I agree that XY clearly still cared for XL deeply in the end, despite everything he did, and was still in great pain after learning of his death, I like to think that XL's efforts did have some effect, and therefore weren't in vain. That XY was spared a certain additional degree of pain that she would've felt if XL had acted differently.
Yes. We are on the same page. His extreme methods were not for naught, and spared her the intensity of pain she would have experienced had he allowed her to hope and dream of a future with him.
And yes. These were her thoughts after Fangfeng Bei snuck into her chambers. Unlike the drama which had her showing annoyance and impatience, this is the Xiao Yao we should have seen. My interpretation of the next line is slightly different:
Last night, when she realised he was Xiang Liu, she felt no surprise at all. It was as if that was how it was meant to be, and the heavy burden in one corner of her heart was lifted, but weighed down at the same time in another part of her.
I think it was then that she realised the kind of life Xiang Liu could have, should have led, which would carry on to her repeated wishes that she had been the one to save him when he escaped the death arena, enabling him to live forever as Fangfeng Bei. Either way, I wish we were privy to this, instead of what we were given.
And yes. These were her thoughts after Fangfeng Bei snuck into her chambers. Unlike the drama which had her showing annoyance and impatience, this is the Xiao Yao we should have seen. My interpretation of the next line is slightly different:
Last night, when she realised he was Xiang Liu, she felt no surprise at all. It was as if that was how it was meant to be, and the heavy burden in one corner of her heart was lifted, but weighed down at the same time in another part of her.
I think it was then that she realised the kind of life Xiang Liu could have, should have led, which would carry on to her repeated wishes that she had been the one to save him when he escaped the death arena, enabling him to live forever as Fangfeng Bei. Either way, I wish we were privy to this, instead of what we were given.
Oh man. That's a different connotation. How it was meant to be. That's beautiful, and kind of devastating.
It also makes me think of all the times that XY saw Left Ear as a young demon with the potential to become like XL/FFB one day. How she was sad, when she was gravely injured in chapter 44, that she would not be part of that transformation. And how, when she was teaching Left Ear in chapter 45, she pictured Gong Gong doing the same with XL and was so amused. And how she played matchmaker with him and Miao Pu and wished, in chapter 47, that they could have what XL couldn't have - that they could be happy forever. And I hate that we won't get to see any of that in the drama either.
What one person sees as pointless, another may sees as absolutely meaningful. I don't XL as suicidal and looking for death, it just happened to be the outcome for the choice that he made in standing with the resistance army till the end. His comment about how as long as there are beautiful sights to look at, life is worth living tells you that he's someone who appreciate life.
I concur. We see this during their first date under the moonlight, his words an encouragement to her to cherish life; and we see it again in Tong Hua's descriptions of her times with Fangfeng Bei:
I came to this conclusion as well, answering another post elsewhere, with that quote. That XL wasn't suicidal at all.
That was the real Xiang Liu, unfettered by responsibilities and bonds of gratitude, so similar with Xiao Yao. The only difference is that he made his pledge long ago to stand by the Xuan Yuan resistance army, and once he gave his word, he would never renege on it.
Right. But I don't think anyone, except Hong Jiang perhaps, thought that meant they had to die to a man. Even Hong Jiang released everyone at the end so they did NOT have to die, if I read my spoilers right, but instead XL and the 1000 agreed to whatever insane plan involved them dying, that may or may not have allowed Hong Jiang and others escape.
Anyway, my point is, after percolating the fact that XL isn't suicidal and reading some here, I realized, that XL died on the battlefield, and tried to keep XY at a distance, because that is what he learned from the humans he cared about. I know AH and others disagree with my take on demons, BUT, XL himself has said, taking care of FFB's mother taught him about a unconditional mother's love, which he hadn't experienced before. His encounters with XY (and her feelings and actions with CX) taught him the self less nature of love. And his experiences with Hong Jiang and resistance army taught him about the love between warriors and honor and duty. IIRC, XY said watching him command and train his troops seemed so unlike demon behavior -- and clearly different from her 'free spirited' FFB, so it was what he learned from others.
So, his actions and choices are all expressions of love, that he learned.
And yes. These were her thoughts after Fangfeng Bei snuck into her chambers. Unlike the drama which had her showing annoyance and impatience, this is the Xiao Yao we should have seen. My interpretation of the next line is slightly different:
Last night, when she realised he was Xiang Liu, she felt no surprise at all. It was as if that was how it was meant to be, and the heavy burden in one corner of her heart was lifted, but weighed down at the same time in another part of her.
I think it was then that she realised the kind of life Xiang Liu could have, should have led, which would carry on to her repeated wishes that she had been the one to save him when he escaped the death arena, enabling him to live forever as Fangfeng Bei. Either way, I wish we were privy to this, instead of what we were given.
And not just XL, but what her life WITH XL/FFB was meant to be. Sleeping next to XL / FFB and waking to see him there with her. Which is why there's a weight in another part of her heart.
I'll have to watch it again, but I didn't get exactly that impression of XY at FFB's appearance in her bed room. Of course, that scene moved from one emotion to another, and I was mostly overwhelmed by XL / FFB being refused the intimacy of XY's neck. Woman, WHAT are you thinking?
But when she wakes in the morning, and watches him sleep, she is definitely not annoyed or impatient. She's fondly remembering their times together.
For me, even in those early days, he saw a kindred soul in Xiao Liu, and her unspoken wishes in her description of herself were carved in his heart, long before the lover's bug was planted in him. He already knew how his life would end, so he never made any pledges to her because he would never give her a promise that he could not keep.
Very beautifully said. This is how I viewed it as well based on my understanding of novel Xiang Liu: His fate was already set before he ever met her, so he did the best he could for her given that fate. He is at peace with his fate. It makes for a beautiful tragedy.
It's just that drama Xiang Liu has really muddled my understanding of the character. There's all that mess with his love seeming unrequited and looking like he's begging for crumbs. He seemed so genuinely happy and hopeful in the beginning (when they planted the Lover's Bug and had the underwater tour for example). There are many scenes where Xiang Liu seems sad, mopey or jealous because of Jing. And there was the Xiang Liu character casting sheet someone posted on twitter. I can't find it now, but it said something like:
He had no hopes for the future until he met her, who had a similar childhood experience as him. Unfortunately, all of his hopes were shattered when he found out about her true identity.
Which all in all makes it feel like there was a point in time where drama Xiang Liu didn't feel like his fate was entirely set in stone?
I don't know if the change to his character is accidental or intentional, if the change is for the sake of viewer, TV producer or censorship requirements, but drama Xiang Liu is an entirely different character from novel Xiang Liu. You can't really judge the behavior of drama Xiang Liu based on the character of novel Xiang Liu. However, if you only look at the drama and ignore the novel, the story doesn't really make sense. I guess this is one of the problems with TV adaptations that Tong Hua mentioned.
In Ep4 of the leaked script, when Xiang Liu sang Chi Chen's love song for A Heng, Xiao Yao noted that the song felt incomplete. In Once Promised (my physical copy translates it as The Promised), Chi Chen sang this song in its entirety before the final battle against Xuan Yuan, to which A Heng sang her response - her pledge to their ill-fated love. The highlighted section is the part Xiang Liu refused to sing for Xiao Yao, a parallel foreshadowing of his own death and a wish he would never express.
It's so interesting that Xiang Liu sings Chi Chen's song to Xiaoyao, and that her response to the song is "this song is too bloody".
It's been really interesting reading everyone's opinions on how Xiang Liu's behavior affected the impact of his death on Xiaoyao. Personally, I feel like it didn't necessarily lessen the impact of his death, but it certainly changed the impact. One might think that his attempts to obfuscate their relationship would lessen the impact on her. But I think that when things are unclear or unresolved, people often become more obsessed with those things, not less. It's the same reason that we keep talking about this story forever LMAO. Not getting proper closure can make it really hard to move on from something.
Her confusion about what she meant to him, doubting her own perceptions and sanity because his words and actions are inconsistent, getting the impression that he loves/loved her but also him saying that she was always just a chess piece to him. Now the reason she can't forget him is not only that she loved him and that he was really special to her because he resonated with her in ways no one else can, but also that she keeps wondering about what actually happened between her and that very special person. What was real? Either way, it's a mess.
Kokuto 24 minutes agoKokuto:
liddi:
What one person sees as pointless, another may sees as absolutely meaningful. I don't XL as suicidal and looking for death, it just happened to be the outcome for the choice that he made in standing with the resistance army till the end. His comment about how as long as there are beautiful sights to look at, life is worth living tells you that he's someone who appreciate life.
I concur. We see this during their first date under the moonlight, his words an encouragement to her to cherish life; and we see it again in Tong Hua's descriptions of her times with Fangfeng Bei:
I came to this conclusion as well, answering another post elsewhere, with that quote. That XL wasn't suicidal at all.
In this context, what does "[not] suicidal and looking for death" and "wasn't suicidal at all" mean exactly?
His words in chapter 8 are pretty clear. "As long as there are such sights in this world, then life is very precious." His wording in episode 7 is nearly identical. "Life is precious as long as we can enjoy such views." And his time as FFB also shows that he knows how to have fun and enjoy life.
But I think it is possible for XL to simultaneously be someone who considers life to be precious, especially life as it was at that point in the story when he was falling for WXL, and someone who knows how to enjoy life, especially with XY as his regular companion, while also knowing that if he could choose, there was a particular time and place that he would consider to be the best death for himself... and then choosing that death for himself after living according to his choices and principles until the end.
I've probably quoted it half a dozen times and Kokuto's probably sick of it by now, but I really feel that Tong Hua included the scenes related to the one-armed veteran primarily to give us insight into XL's thoughts.
The scenes in chapter 29 and 35 seem very clear to me. Like the one-armed veteran, XL is someone who cannot forget his comrades. In XL's view, it would be better to die on the battlefield with Gong Gong and his comrades than to survive and have to carry the memories of them as the lone survivor.
XY even understood XL's feelings. She remembered her uncle's choice to die rather than abandon his comrades, even though it meant leaving his beloved wife and son behind.
In chapter 48 and in his epilogue, it seems pretty clear that XL knows that he will definitely die in the upcoming battle. He breaks the bug connection with XY and tells Sir Bi that when he faces down the Xuan Yuan army, it won't matter if he has one more or one less life. When he thinks of XY, he thinks that he will no longer be able to stand watch to protect her. Like all of the Sheng Nong remnant army soldiers, XL knew his fate and willingly chose his path.
-----
Chapter 29:
The old man sat down on a wood chopping stool and drank while talking with Xiang Liu. Xiao Yao wasn’t able to understand all they were talking about, other than it was about people they both knew and who were dead now. The old man’s attitude was very placid as was Xiang Liu, but in this soft muggy Summer night Xiao Yao suddenly felt the sorrow of having friends pass away.
...
The one-armed old man stared intently at Xiao Yao before downing all the wine in his bowl and then launching into a song. His song was sad and plaintive, singing about the fallen Sheng Nong kingdom and the sorrow of the soldiers fighting.
Xiao Yao listened intently and suddenly remembered the blood red sunset when Xiang Liu was dressed all in white and walked towards her from a burning funeral pyre of dead Sheng Nong soldiers.
Li Jie Chang yelled, “Uncle, stop your drunken craziness!”
The old man kept singing so Li Jie Chang shoved him into the house and nervously said to Xiao Yao, “The old man has low tolerance but loves drinking. When he gets crazy he loves to sing songs he heard from places…..he only has one arm now and his legs can barely walk, he’s already useless…..”
Xiao Yao said, “I only came to eat. Once I walk out this door I’ll forget everything.”
Li Jie Chang was relieved and listened to the singing from inside the house and sadly added, “My Uncle isn’t a bad guy, in fact he’s too good of a guy which is why he….can’t forget.”
Xiao Yao suddenly realized that when Li Jie Chang was talking about Fang Feng Bei earlier, all the things he was saying were about Xiang Liu. Did he know Fang Feng Bei was Xiang Liu?
...
Xiang Liu stared at Xiao Yao and she avoided his piercing gaze and asked, “Who was that old man selling donkey meat?”
“He used to be a subordinate of Qi Yo and one of the survivors in the final battle in Yi Province. Carrying all the memories of those who perished, it’s easier just to have died.” Xiang Liu smiled. “Actually, to a General, the best ending is to die on the battlefield.”
-----
Chapter 35:
Xiao Yao knocked on the door. “Is anyone here? Old uncle, old uncle…”
No one answered and Xiao Yao walked into the residence where an altar was set up on the table and three burning incense sticks were lit before it. This tableau told her exactly where the old man had gone.
...
The donkey meat cooking old general was the only person left in the world who knew Qi Yo. She had thousands of opportunities to come ask him but she didn’t come, and now she was here it was already too late.
...
Xiao Yao lifted her head and saw Xiang Liu dressed all in black with a black cloak covering him, wrapping his entire form snugly in pure black. He seemed like an imposing but ordinary person, until the slight gap in his hood showed a few white hairs.
Xiao Yao suddenly realized he saw her earlier crying and loss of composure and felt very awkward so she coldly asked, “Why are you hiding here? To see something you can mock?”
Xiang Liu said, “Be reasonable, okay? I came to pay my respects to a departed old friend and you suddenly barged in. It’s you who interrupted me. Furthermore, what is there about you that is worth mocking?”
...
Xiao Yao was silent before suddenly asking, “Xiang Liu, why did you pick Gong Gong? Because he’s your adoptive father?” Xiao Yao didn’t know how she had the guts to ask him this question, probably because Xiang Liu didn’t seem like Xiang Liu tonight.
“Not just because he’s my adoptive father, there are also all those soldiers I fought along with and watched them die. We drank together, we went to battle together, we picked up our fallen brethren’s bodies…” Xiang Liu looked over at the altar “For hundreds of years, do you know how many of my fellow soldiers I’ve had to personally cremate?”
Xiao Yao couldn’t imagine, but she understood what Xiang Liu felt. Her Fourth Uncle could have survived that day, and he did love Fourth Aunt and Zhuan Xu, but he chose to die alongside his soldiers. In this world there was camaraderie so strong that one would die rather than abandon it.
Xiang Liu laughed and pointed at his head. “I’ve lost count, but they are all here.”
Xiao Yao buried her head in her lap and grew silent. She felt her heart all jumbled and she didn’t know if it was for Xiang Liu or for herself.
-----
Chapter 48:
Sir Bi took out his precious medicine. “Do you want me to heal you?”
Xiang Liu smiled. “Such medicines are of no use to me.”
Sir Bi anxiously asked, “But you…..your injuries….what can I do for you?”
Xiang Liu casually said, “Don’t be like this. You know that facing down the Xuan Yuan army, one more or one less lives of mine doesn’t make a difference!”
Sir Bi’s face fell and he grew silent.
-----
Chapter 51:
Xiao Yao’s tears began to fall again and the drops landed on Jing’s hand. Jing said nothing and continued to hold Xiao Yao in his arms.
Xiao Yao murmured, “Even though I always reminded myself that he was Zhuan Xu’s enemy, but I…..I was not prepared for this! I really wish it was all a lie…..he’s so sneaky, he must’ve found a way to stay alive!”
Jing said nothing because he knew Xiao Yao didn’t need his response.
“It’s because he’s so sneaky that he doesn’t want to stay alive! One time he told me “Actually, to a General, the best ending is dying on the battlefield.” So he chose for himself the best ending!”
“But what a bullshit best ending! He’s the stupidest idiot in this world! He stayed loyal and true to Gong Gong and all his soldier comrades but did he do himself right?”
-----
XL's Epilogue:
On the battlefield, when that all-white figure appeared, he would capture the attention of every enemy and all the strongest attacks would be aimed at him. That would help save more of their troops as Xiang Liu took the brunt of all the enemy attacks. So at night in the camp, when the all-white figure was spotted, no matter how near the enemy was, all the soldiers could still sleep soundly.
After burning one deceased comrade’s body after another, the remaining soldiers finally understood even more why Xiang Liu wore all-white.
...
Xiang Liu surveyed the camp and walked up to the top of the mountain to look down from the summit.
In the distance he could see fires burning, that was Ru So burning the entire mountain to force them to come out and battle. The final battle was about to arrive. All the soldiers knew their fate and they willingly chose this path in life. The world was at peace and the people were safe and secure, these Sheng Nong resistance army soldiers were now discarded in the passage of time and had become pointless. So death was the best release for them, and the most comforting final destination.
...
Xiang Liu put the laughing doll into the bucket of Fu Sang sap. The top and base of the doll were made from the same piece of Fu Sang God Wood and after setting a maze and the passage of a few months, it would seal together seamlessly. But he didn’t have time left, so he used up some of his power to finish it.
...
Xiang Liu thought to himself: Xiao Yao, from now on I can no longer stand watch to protect you. You have to take good care of yourself. Wishing you a lifetime of worry free happiness!
It's been really interesting reading everyone's opinions on how Xiang Liu's behavior affected the impact of his death on Xiaoyao. Personally, I feel like it didn't necessarily lessen the impact of his death, but it certainly changed the impact. One might think that his attempts to obfuscate their relationship would lessen the impact on her. But I think that when things are unclear or unresolved, people often become more obsessed with those things, not less. It's the same reason that we keep talking about this story forever LMAO. Not getting proper closure can make it really hard to move on from something.kitty_momo:
Her confusion about what she meant to him, doubting her own perceptions and sanity because his words and actions are inconsistent, getting the impression that he loves/loved her but also him saying that she was always just a chess piece to him. Now the reason she can't forget him is not only that she loved him and that he was really special to her because he resonated with her in ways no one else can, but also that she keeps wondering about what actually happened between her and that very special person. What was real? Either way, it's a mess.
That is a very interesting observation. You're absolutely right that at least half the reason many of us are still here talking about this is thanks to all the elements of the story that are unclear or open to interpretation. It's both fuel for conversation and, as you said, the kind of thing that stokes obsession. And I think you're right, too, in thinking that XY might have a similar experience.
On the one hand, I don't love the idea because it seems like it undermines XL's efforts to minimize the likelihood that XY would be haunted by his memory. But on the other hand I don't want her to actually forget XL, and wondering seems better than being totally broken. So maybe that outcome isn't actually a bad one.
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