I seem to have read something about Yangzi commenting on Merlin Jing's scenes. She said instead of just hugging and kissing me, then dying with me, you'd better find a way to get me out of here so I can survive.windiaaa041293:
That would be the normal response of a healthy person :-). Xiao Yao is a mess!
If you ever find that interview of Yang Zi, please drop a link :-)
I have not been taken over by aliens. No rescue squad is needed. It's just 2 lines of excerpts.
100%. I really don't understand what TH tried to do here, she said that story about those 2 women, one who's husband died and as a result she killed herself, leaving her child to be raised by another woman as an exemple of don't be like that, but in the end both Jing and XY did basically the same with TSZ. I am really confused about this part.blabla100:
like CX's mother killing herself over the death of her husband, leaving CX an orphan, and Jing attempting to kill himself over the 'death' of XY, leaving his responsibilities and family behind, then you have to question what Tong Hua is doing here, though I question her treatment of XY more than Jing. To me, there's no doubt that Tong Hua wrote Jing to be ... well, I'll be kind and say a poor choice for a life partner.Kokuto:
We know from her interview that Tong Hua does not see giving up and dying with your lover/partner as an admirable thing to do. And the book pretty much drove this point home as well. In chapter 10 of the novel, CX and XY had the following exchange:
Xiao Liu said “In the future if I had kids, I will never leave them no matter what happens.”
Zhuan Xu said “In the future when I marry a wife, I will ask for her whether she’ll die if I die first. If she wants to die with me then I don’t want her!”
And yet, what do we see with Jing and Xiao Yao and their relationship?
What do you think the author is trying to convey here? Or do you think it's just a coincidence and doesn't mean anything?
Let's just hope that these two don't have children, and if they do nothing happens to Xiao Yao because Jing will probably orphan them.
Frankly, if you thoroughly read through this novel and conclude that these two characters are healthy and their relationship is something to strive for, I seriously question your reading comprehension ability. I don't think this is about different interpretations, but about not comprehending the message that the author is putting across. But hey, free world and all. You do you :-).
HeadInTheClouds:
AH :
I'm inclined to think he would've been in the "barest minimum of approval" position simply because it's pretty bleak if he put in so much effort to help XY and TSJ be together and he didn't even have that level of approval for TSJ as a partner to XY. But that's just me.
I do agree with your process of elimination. The difference is that I would probably pick the "neutral option.
I can see your good intentions - you mentioned this in a previous post (which I still need to reply to). For me, XL's actions are all about XY and he has to work within XY's limitations. XY wanted someone who would put her first and wouldn't abandon her. Frankly, there are not many men out there with self-respect, dreams and goals who would sign up for this. Jing is the only one because XY is his reason for living (an extremely unhealthy mindset, which we won't go into here). Jing isn't going to deliberately harm XY or be a danger to her so he passed the bare minimum requirements. And because XY was willing to marry 17 (XL confirmed that) so 17 it is. So instead of whether XL approved of Jing, I see it as XY approved of Jing and Jing isn't going to cause XY's deliberate harm so why not?
Although we are inclined to pick different descriptors (bare minimum approval vs. complete neutrality), most of our thinking seems to be pretty similar.
I think perhaps the main way that our views here diverge is that I take XL's comment in chapter 46 (about TSJ being smart / not a fool / not vindictive) and some of their other interactions and conclude that XL seemed to view TSJ somewhat positively as a person, separate from if and how he met XY's criteria / needs.
XY wanted someone who would put her first and wouldn't abandon her. Frankly, there are not many men out there with self-respect, dreams and goals who would sign up for this. Jing is the only one because XY is his reason for living (an extremely unhealthy mindset, which we won't go into here). Jing isn't going to deliberately harm XY or be a danger to her so he passed the bare minimum requirements. And because XY was willing to marry 17 (XL confirmed that) so 17 it is.
I agree with all of this.
So instead of whether XL approved of Jing, I see it as XY approved of Jing and Jing isn't going to cause XY's deliberate harm so why not?
I agree with "So instead of whether XL approved of Jing, I see it as XY approved of Jing and Jing isn't going to cause XY's deliberate harm so why not?" and at the same time happen to think that XL marginally approved of TSJ as well, even if that marginal approval wasn't necessarily an important driving factor behind XL's actions.
AH :
I know lots of people love that TJC chose to play XL more expressively, and that the drama has added more lines and scenes where XL's emotions are externalized in less subtle ways. I acknowledge that my preferences are in the minority here. ^^
I like characters across the spectrum of personalities, but I do have a preference for those who say little but do a lot. Pretty words and promises are cheap - show me your action. So the Mr. Darcys and XLs of the world totally do it for me.
I'm not too fond of drama's XL leaning into lovelorn territory and sometimes looking like a kicked puppy ̣(that entire scene in XY's bedroom was not XL at all ). XL, to me, is very dignified. He feels deeply, but he's restrained.
THIS!!!
Few words, big actions. Darcy. Dignity. Deep feelings internally vs. a restrained exterior.
All of that. 100%
What I like about TJC's XL is how he conveyed XL's internal conflict - he provides a visual presentation of what I'd imagined XL to be feeling had Tong Hua given us his POV in the novel. There were many moments where I could see how much TJC's XL wanted to confess, to take a chance and come what may, but then he would pull himself back and crack a heartbreaking smile as if reminding himself of why they could not be. TJC does such a good job at acting, that I can't help but like his XL. So while he's not totally the XL from the novel, I view him as a variation and go with it.
Agreed. Although I prefer the novel version of XL, I do think TJC does a great job of portraying his own version of XL the way he wanted to. And there are definitely benefits to that approach when portraying XL through a visual medium where the viewer doesn't have the benefit of getting to constantly read descriptions that clarify the dichotomy between XL's seemingly impassive exterior and all the feelings hidden behind that mask.
I tried to approach adaptations as an alternate version of the story. It makes watching easier, otherwise I would feel frustrated with the constant comparison. The Season 2 leaked script, though.... probably more than I can accept :-(
That's a good approach. I generally try to do the same, but don't always succeed.
But I find major plot point differences actually help with the mental separation, so all the changes in S2, as much as I don't like most of them, sort of help serve as a reminder that it's just not the same story so I shouldn't worry too much about details that don't feel "true" to the novel version of the story.
Neither XL nor CX would have done what Jing did - and it isn't because they love XY less than he does.
I agree with this.
Neither XL nor CX would have done what Jing did - and it isn't because they love XY less than he does. They would have fought and exhausted all possibilities; Jing just folded like a cheap house of cards. Lack of strength of character aside, it's also because Jing had made XY his reason for living which doesn't speak well for his character to me. I don't see this as romantic - throwing away honour, responsibilities, rhyme and reason for "love" just showed me that this person is not well-balanced and has issues.
When CX and his guards arrived at the kill maze after the flame sequence had started, CX wanted to run directly into the flames (throwing away rhyme and reason and responsibilities) to look for XY. To protect him from himself, his guards felt like they had to knock him out. So they did. He genuinely "folded like a cheap house of cards" and was carried away, unconscious, before his guards even found XY.
CX didn't transfer any of his own power to XY and tbh he didn't really contribute anything to saving XY's life beyond bringing his guards to XY's general vicinity and being delusional enough that his guards decided (without him telling them to do so) that they should keep transferring their own power to XY, even if doing so was useless.
Xiao Xiao and his guards were the ones who searched through the flames to find XY, they were the ones who got her out of the kill maze, and they were the ones who decided to transfer power to her continuously, and then did so. All while CX was unconscious. And when he woke up, he was delusional. He was convinced that XY wasn't dead (even after all the best doctors agreed that she was) specifically because he was convinced that she wouldn't leave him behind.
-----
Chapter 21:
By the time Zhuan Xu and Xiao Xiao arrived at the canyon it was already ablaze in towering flames.
Zhuan Xu wanted to rush in. “Xiao Yao is inside, Xiao Yao must be inside!”
Xiao Xiao stopped him. “Your highness, this is a kill maze and the maze has started. You can’t risk going in. We’ll go save the Princess.”
Zhuan Xu paid her no heed and rushed forward while screaming, “Xiao Yao, Xiao Yao……”
Xiao Xiao summoned all her power and hit Zhuan Xu hard on the back of neck and he fainted.
Xiao Xiao ordered the two guards, “Protect His highness!”
She led four more guards into the fiery inferno with one final order, “If we’re not back in half an hour that means we’re all dead. You two take his highness back to Sheng Nong Mountain immediately. After he calms down, he will forgive you.”
The flames licked them from all sides and they could only use all their power to hold off the flames and at most they could withstand only half an hour inside. Other than the red flames they could only see other so they searched and called, “Princess, Princess….”
As the time passed the guards with lower power already had charred skin but they didn’t stop and continued searching and calling.
...
They surrounded the man and extinguished the flames and Xiao Xiao recognized him as Tu Shan Jing. She ordered “I’ll take the Princess, you guys help Master Jing.”
They wanted to carry Jing but his arms were in a death grip around Xiao Yao and they couldn’t separate them. Xiao Xiao had no time to lose. “Take them together and we can deal with it later.”
A wood power guard created a stretcher and they placed Xiao Yao and Jing on it before carrying them out of the inferno.
They were all highly trained powerful warriors so they easily found their way out of the maze and escaped in no time. Zhuan Xu was still passed out and Xiao Xiao inspected Jing and Xiao Yao’s pulses and her face fell. “Master Jing is still alive but the Princess…..she has no pulse.”
Xiao Xiao put her hand on Xiao Yao’s back and said to the guards, “Back to Sheng Nong Mountain immediately. Even if its useless, from now on we have to keep transferring power to the Princess. Tell Miss Xing Yue that the Princess is gravely injured and to bring us the best doctors in the Middle Plains but seal all the information.”
Back at Sheng Nong Mountain, Zhuan Xu bolted upright the moment he woke up. “Xiao Yao!”
Xiao Xiao reported “We brought the Princess back from the inferno.” She didn’t dare say save, she could only say bring back.
Zhuan Xu was elated “Where is Xiao Yao?”
Jin Xuan cautiously led Zhuan Xu to see Xiao Yao. After the efforts of the guards, they finally separated Jing from Xiao Yao and she was placed on a special water jade pallet which was used by the Flame Emperor to heal because the water jade could collect all the spiritual power to protect the body. The guards took turns sitting at the head of the pallet and placing their hands on the water jade to transfer power to Xiao Yao.
...
Zhuan Xu asked, “How is she?”
Doctor Yin was a mute and studied medicine from childhood so wasn’t very adept at social conversing so he signed directly, “She’s dead.”
Zhuan Xu glared at Doctor Yin as if he was a thundering beast about to attack and Yin never felt such fear before and quickly kneeled down.
...
Zhuan Xu gently touched Xiao Yao’s forehead. “I know you’re very brave and you’ll make it through this. You’ve endured being left behind and I know you won’t leave me behind. I’ve planted the phoenix tree on Zhi Jin Summit and in tens of years it’ll grow tall. You promised me that you’ll be with me to watch the phoenix flowers bloom all over Sheng Nong Mountain.”
-----
As for TSJ, IMO, he did all that he could have done in the circumstances. He didn't have a bug connection with XY that he could use, or extra lives, or a retinue of guards with him.
Thanks to the calamity-sensing power he inherited from the nine-tailed fox and his tracking abilities (and simple luck in being fairly close to her location geographically), he was able to get to XY very quickly. When he found her, he continuously transferred power to her. When that didn't produce any response and he still couldn't detect a heartbeat, TSJ thought she was truly dead. Normally being dead is a permanent thing, and once it occurs, raging against it is an unhelpful, futile act of denial.
Despite believing that XY was dead, TSJ still transferred power to XY continuously. Even after he passed out, he continued to hold her tightly, transferred power to her and protected her body from the flames while his own body was burned. He continued holding XY and transferring power to her until CX guards took over continuously transferring power to her.
-----
Chapter 21:
Jing went to feel for her pulse but felt nothing. His entire body was shaking and he tightly embraced Xiao Yao and tried to use his body warmth to warm her icy cold body.
He put his hand on her back and continued to push spiritual power into her. “Xiao Yao, Xiao Yao, Xiao Yao……”
...
No matter how much power he transferred to her, her pulse never started again.
...
The flames rushed forward and burned Jing’s clothes and his skin was in pain but he continued to hold Xiao Yao tightly in his arms and allowed the flames to engulf them together.
...
The five rushed over and saw a man holding a woman tightly in the center of the flames, he was transferring power to her and her body was not scorched by the flames but he was completely burned to the point of passing out.
They surrounded the man and extinguished the flames and Xiao Xiao recognized him as Tu Shan Jing. She ordered, “I’ll take the Princess, you guys help Master Jing.”
They wanted to carry Jing but his arms were in a death grip around Xiao Yao and they couldn’t separate them.
...
Zhuan Xu was still passed out and Xiao Xiao inspected Jing and Xiao Yao’s pulses and her face fell. “Master Jing is still alive but the Princess…..she has no pulse.”
Xiao Xiao put her hand on Xiao Yao’s back and said to the guards. “Back to Sheng Nong Mountain immediately. Even if its useless, from now on we have to keep transferring power to the Princess. Tell Miss Xing Yue that the Princess is gravely injured and to bring us the best doctors in the Middle Plains but seal all the information.”
...
After the efforts of the guards, they finally separated Jing from Xiao Yao and she was placed on a special water jade pallet which was used by the Flame Emperor to heal because the water jade could collect all the spiritual power to protect the body. The guards took turns sitting at the head of the pallet and placing their hands on the water jade to transfer power to Xiao Yao.
----
I will note, for the record, that I find TSJ repeatedly kissing XY's lifeless body in this scene to be rather creepy and off-putting.
I can't agree with the second sentence at all. One, he thought she was dead, so what was the purpose of his action really (besides a plot device)? To keep her corpse pretty for the funeral parade? Two, his act of protecting XY's body was utterly redundant because by not trying to get XY out of there, Jing essentially would have condemned XY to death. If CX's people hadn't come in time there would have been 2 corpses.
TSJ's thoughts showed that he believed XY was dead. Continuing to transfer his power to her was seemingly futile. But he continued to do it anyway. IMO, that's what saved her.
I acknowledge that TSJ got lucky. Since he focused on continuously transferring power to her instead of trying to save himself or trying to get both of them out of the kill maze (which likely would have prevented him from continuing to transfer power to XY, at least temporarily), he unknowingly succeeded in keeping XY alive. And then CX's guards found the two of them in time. As you mentioned, TSJ presumably would not have been able to protect XY's body from the flames indefinitely.
I don't hate Jing. What I feel for him is impatience and contempt. Jing is not someone that I can respect, and I cannot love a partner that I can't respect. So as a love interest, he doesn't work for me. Yes, he works for XY because of her particular set of issues, but I cannot see ending up with such a man as a good thing. Particularly as I don't think that he has shown convincing changes by the end of the novel.
This view makes sense to me.
My opinion on this character definitely stemmed from personal values and experiences with the Jings of the world. They suck you in at first because they're not bad people - they can be nice, kind and smart etc. But once they "unintentionally" screwed you over a few times due to their "willing, but unable" incompetence, you start to see that being "not bad people" is the bare minimum and you should set your bar higher.
I feel rather lucky. I can't think of anyone in my life who fits this description. Maybe that's why his ineptitude doesn't bother me quite as much?
On the topic of zhiji. language is dynamic and it changes with time. Reading through what you posted, I get the sense that the term zhiji has been adopted and used more casually in modern times.
AH :
” wei wuxian, realizing that he and lan wangji have had the same thoughts about the situation, goes, “哟，知己啊”, which basically means “hey, we’re 知己!” if i really wanted to capture the tone of this little interjection, i would say the mood is closest to something like: “yo, we totally vibe/we’re on the same wavelength/you get me/samesies!”
This exchange in particular strikes me as a modern author applying this modern usage in her writing. The original meaning of the word has essentially been lost when used in this way. And in this scene as well, there's this jesting tone - kinda like "OMG, we're totally vibing on this, we should be besties". But we know that it takes more than that to be "best friends". I see it as a throw-away comment that is not meant to be taken seriously. As the rest of your quoted text said, eventually, the term zhiji became more serious, more in line with what it actually means in subsequent mentions. I don't know if I'm making sense here.
I'm not a Mandarin speaker and I'm not a student of ancient Chinese texts. I can only form a tentative view on this topic based on what I've read from people who are qualified to write about it. But Hunxi and Cyan seem to agree that thinking that 知己 should always be translated to a term with an inherent weight (like "best friends") doesn't really work because 知己 doesn't have an inherent weight now and never has. Its weight is flexible. Just as the weight of "understanding" and "knowing" has always been flexible in English. The fact that these terms might typically be used in a context where they have more weight does not mean that it is incorrect to use them in a context where they have less weight, or that doing so somehow undermines its potential to convey more profound meaning in contexts where it is intended to have more weight.
I feel like it's worth noting that Hunxi very much wants people to understand how profound the term can be, despite all that emphasis on its flexibility in the post I quoted from earlier, and she also makes a point of not incorrectly applying modern meanings to words when they are used in an ancient context.
In addition to her post about the flexibility of its weight, she also wrote:
I’ve seen various translations of the phrase “畢生知己” as “lifelong confidante” or “soulmate,” and I’m always so torn because these are both fine translations but like, not quite there
okay so first we gotta start with the word 知 zhi in Classical/Literary Chinese, which bridges the English valences of knowing and understanding and recognizing another person. 知 zhi knowing someone is a big-ass deal, because the action of knowing someone usually has political ramifications as well as personal. I think we, as Western viewers, immediately made the connection from 知己 zhiji as, literally, “the one who knows me” to “the mortifying ordeal of being known” and from there to “romance!!! soulmates!!!! omg!!!!” which is like
totally valid
but not quite accurate?
Bear with my armchair etymology for a bit, there isn’t really a good word for ‘love’ in the romantic sense in Classical Chinese (I’m talking ancient, not medieval, for any roving Sinologists out there). The character we read as ‘love’ today – 愛 ai – back then didn’t mean love so much as it meant to begrudge, to be unwilling to give up.
(you can see how it later takes on the valence of romantic love, but I had it absolutely hammered into my brain during my intro literary course that 愛 ai did NOT mean love and translating it as such was reading its modern definition into an ancient context, which, no, don’t do that)
There’s a famous passage in the 《孟子·梁惠王》/ Mencius where Mengzi is remonstrating with King Hui of Liang, and they discuss the king’s 愛 ai of an ox sent to sacrifice. The king is not, in fact, having romantic or carnal relationships with this ox; the way 愛 ai is used in this passage is almost purely economic – the king is seen as begrudging the expenditure of the ox for the sacrifice. There’s no ‘love’ in the modern sense involved at all.
The point I’m trying to make here is that we, in the 21st century, in the Western Hemisphere, tend to assume that a relationship of love is the highest form of relationship, the one in which the most complete knowing of another person can occur.
It was definitely not so in ancient China. So instead of 愛 ai being the basis of the strongest possible relationship between two people, it’s instead 知 zhi – that is, knowing.
Anna Shields, in One Who Knows Me: Friendship and Literary Culture in Mid-Tang China, does an excellent trace of the complexity of 知 zhi / knowing; she points out that the knowing of others is a critical skill for a ruler to have, because it allows the ruler to “assess others’ skills and use them appropriately,” and the best rulers go down in history (and pre-history, and pseudo-history) as the ones who were able to recognize the hidden merit of a man-of-service/minister and elevate them to the appropriate position.
...
In my brief sweep of pre-Han/Han Dynasty texts (I categorically refuse to go past 250 CE for personal reasons), the term 知己 zhiji is primarily an action – that is, the knowing of oneself (insert tangent into 孫子兵法 / Sunzi’s Art of War here). Refracted sideways from this usage, the most notable usage of 知己 zhiji as a term to refer to an actual person gets us to this famous quote from 司馬遷 Sima Qian’s 《史記·刺客列傳》/ Records of the Grand Historian, “Biographies of the Assassin-Retainers” :
“士為知己者死，女為悅己者容” / Men of service die for those who know them; women beautify themselves for those who delight in them.
Setting aside yikes gender things for now, there are some exciting things to note here:
- the attachment of the 者 particle to 知己 turns it into a person! i.e., “the one who knows/understands/recognizes me” as opposed to simply “the act of knowing oneself”
- the relationship between a man-of-service and his patron (or a minister and his lord) is actively likened to the romantic relationship between men and women
- this becomes, like, a thing in the Chinese poetic tradition, but we don’t have the time for that now
- this relationship of knowing is one that is worth dying for
...
WHAT I’M TRYING TO SAY is that calling someone your 知己 zhiji is more than saying that they’re your best friend, or confidante, or uwu soulmate – they’re your patron, your benefactor, the mirror to your soul, your self. They know you so well that your movements are in concert, your words synchronized, your actions unified. At the peak of the 知己 zhiji relationship in the “Biographies of the Assassin-Retainers,” patron and assassin don’t even have to speak to each other to carry out each other’s will. In the biography of 專諸 Zhuan Zhu, 公子光 Prince Guang gets down on his knees and bows his head to the floor before his assassin, declaring 光之身，子之身也 / my self is as yours. Even the grammar of his declaration reinforces the interchangeability of the two of them – 公子光 Prince Guang is 專諸 Zhuan Zhu, 專諸 Zhuan Zhu is 公子光 Prince Guang.
that is the 知己 zhiji relationship
so yeah, I can see why people would translate it as true friend. I can see why people would translate it as confidante. I can see why people would translate it as soulmate. But it’s somehow even more personal and more intimate than that; it’s a term that carries with it blood, and debt, and devotion; of romance, of selfhood, of loyalty.
The person who wrote the particular post that I mentioned very much means this term in the traditional sense of the word, and I strongly disagree with applying this particular term with its original seriousness to the relationship between Jing and Xiang Liu.
I agree that it doesn't seem right to view Jing and Xiang Liu as zhi ji in the more profound sense.
My issue with Jing has never been about his inability to put Xiao Yao's needs first above all other things. To me, Xiao Yao's insistence on always being first is unreasonable and unhealthy and is very much a manifestation of her trauma. So for Jing to go along with it, for him to abandon his child to cater to Xiao Yao is not a positive indicator of his character. It's just the opposite. It shows me that he's a weak man who can not tell right from wrong, who is so addled by "love" that he would do such a ludicrous and irresponsible thing. It tells me that he's a very sick man for whom Xiao Yao is still his reason for living - whatever growth there was, is so minuscule as to be non-existence. Actual character growth would have been the opposite.
Sometimes it seems to me like, in the eyes of some readers / viewers, TSJ was always damned if he did and damned if he didn't. That's not to say that I think he always made good choices and was wrongly vilified for them, but IMO it feels like if he had two choices available to him, his critics would criticize him no matter which option he chose.
If he puts XY first above his responsibilities as clan leader (past, present or future), above his family members, and above other considerations of some might view as objectively right or wrong behaviour, he's a weak man who lets his feelings for XY dictate his actions. He's irresponsible, messed up, and selfish.
If he prioritizes his responsibilities as clan leader, isn't unfilial and ruthless towards his family, or cares about maintaining his status (which was something he needed in order to be with XY in her current identity, which she was not capable of escaping from at the time, and which enabled him to help XY and CX) even when that means not breaking his engagement as he promised, he's an incompetent person who fails to follow through and is selfishly willing to trap and hurt XY.
The specter of another "correct" option where he selflessly releases XY from her promise, ends their relationship himself and completely lets go of all hope of being with her (or, at the end of the novel, where he chooses to be TSZ's father and completely lets XY go in a similar way) seems like an illusion to me. The reality of XY's mindset and issues meant that she didn't want that. IMO, she would have felt abandoned and hurt and it would not have been this great fix that sent her down a path of healing that ultimately led her to resolve her issues. It would have been a case of noble idiocy that left both of them miserable.
Any man or woman who would abandon their child for their partner are shi**y parent and human being and should seriously consider never having kids. So XY and Jing's act of abandonment at the end of the novel reflects very badly on their characters. It just tells me that these two have not achieved much growth and their relationship is an unhealthy co-dependent mess born out of their traumas.
I'm repeating myself here I think, but my view is that, on the one hand, it is objectively a sad and lamentable thing that TSZ is left to live out the rest of his childhood (and adulthood) without a proper parental figure when TSJ was still alive and capable of filling that role, but chooses not to. On the other hand, there are a lot of factors that lead me to sympathize with TSZ and XY's decision. I don't view it in such black and white terms.
This is maybe opening a can of worms, but maybe an XL related example can help give a sense of how I feel about nuance.
When XL breaks the branch that WXL was holding in chapter 4 and intentionally causes her to fall out of a tall tree, resulting in her legs being badly injured, that is objectively Not Good behaviour. But many readers / viewers are able to watch that scene and take contextual factors into consideration (e.g., WXL provoked XL and requested this meeting with the intent of diffusing his temper, expected to receive some kind of retaliation, and was satisfied with the outcome) in order to reach the conclusion that XL shouldn't be written off completely for that objectively Not Good behaviour. Those readers / viewers choose not to view the scene in black and white terms.
Framing Jing's failure to address the situation with Hou and his grandmother and FFYY as hardhearted vs. soft/kind-hearted is myopic and distorted. Xiao Yao's judgement here is not trustworthy and very much comes from her psychological deficiencies. Setting boundaries is not being hard-hearted. Calling people out on their bad behaviour is not hard-hearted. Holding people accountable for their wrong-doings is not hard-hearted.
IMO, TSJ did set some boundaries. But he wasn't willing to take ruthless measures against his family.
He directly opposed his grandmother's wishes and outright refused to proceed with the wedding to FFYY until he was trapped by FFYY and his grandmother with the fake rape and pregnancy, at which point XY chose to leave him.
Later, he worked with XY to expose FFYY and TSH's affair and to have them punished, but wasn't willing to see either of them killed for it.
Later still, he clipped TSH's wings (which, as XL explains to XY, would have been a sufficient option if CX hadn't gotten involved) instead of killing him.
Only for someone like Xiao Yao with her abandonment issues, insecurity of her inherent worthiness and her sensitivity to rejection would fail to see these things or see them as negative. So instead of seeing his failure to address these issues for what it is - a glaring character weakness and or incompetence, in her warped thinking it's seen as positive because it is a confirmation that no-matter what she does, he will also be able to forgive her.
I do agree with this. XY pretty much tells CX this.
AH :
I'll also add that if TSJ had reclaimed his position as Tushan Clan leader until Tushan Zhen was old enough to take on that role, and therefore forced XY to stay in Dahuang and to live as the Tushan Clan leader's wife during that time, I feel like we would all blame him for being overly softhearted towards family again and not being considerate enough of XY's feelings.
I can't speak for other readers/viewers. For me, this is absolutely not the case. My ideal ending is for XY to head off by herself, and for Jing to stay behind and carry out his responsibility with the door open for their reconciliation down the road once they've both done their healing and maturing.
This take makes sense to me. It reminds me a bit of the ending for The Imperial Doctress, which I did like.
Although if the novel had ended like this, I think I would have found XY and TSJ's sudden self-awareness and rational thinking to be very jarring / inconsistent with their previous behaviour, on top of being unrealistic and (I'll admit) a bit boring.
I also tend to get annoyed with most (although I can think of a few exceptions) endings where the leads choose to separate for years and then reconnect at the very end of the drama / novel. And if TSJ's lifespan really was shortened to the point where his time left could be construed as limited, the decision to separate for a long time would probably frustrate me / feel like they were choosing to waste his limited time left.
Sometimes it seems to me like, in the eyes of some readers / viewers, TSJ was always damned if he did and damned if he didn't. That's not to say that I think he always made good choices and was wrongly vilified for them, but IMO it feels like if he had two choices available to him, his critics would criticize him no matter which option he chose.AH :
Probably because Jing started the show with a crappy choice, and keeps making crappy, selfish choices which lead to more crappy choices. If he hadn't extracted the 15 Year Promise, he wouldn't be faced with these bad choices. Plus he is such a ... flawed, ineffective character, and yet, we have people telling us he's perfect, a saint, the greenest of flags, and worse, we have Tong Hua rewarding only this... passive goober, out of all the characters in the book.
If he puts XY first above his responsibilities as clan leader (past, present or future), above his family members, and above other considerations of some might view as objectively right or wrong behaviour, he's a weak man who lets his feelings for XY dictate his actions. He's irresponsible, messed up, and selfish.
That criticism is probably influenced by culture. In the West, it would have been mostly seen as the right romantic choice. In the East, it's seen as the selfish wrong choice. Regardless, at least it would have been honoring a commitment he made to XY. Folks could argue the choice, just as folks argue about XL's choice to die with his men instead of going off with XY. But instead, Jing tries to do both at the same time, knowing both choices are wrong. Every character in the book recognizes that what he is doing is scummy and not how it should be done.
If he prioritizes his responsibilities as clan leader, isn't unfilial and ruthless towards his family, or cares about maintaining his status (which was something he needed in order to be with XY in her current identity, which she was not capable of escaping from at the time, and which enabled him to help XY and CX) even when that means not breaking his engagement as he promised, he's an incompetent person who fails to follow through and is selfishly willing to trap and hurt XY.
That's not exactly true, as it's only what Jing thought he needed and he decided it that on his own. XY never asked him for that and specifically told him she wanted 17. And yes, he gets flack because he (and everyone else but XY, apparently) KNOWS what his situation is, which is why he asked for so much time in the Dragonbone Prison. And this isn't even the first time he pulled this crap. I'm not joking when I say that XY keeps testing him, because he keeps failing. Jing keeps making promises that he KNOWS he probably can't keep, from the very beginning. I mean, WHY would he tell WXL that he'd back him up, when he KNOWS that it is conflict with someone who can recognize him??? He should have told WXL no, or only under certain circumstances. And he kept doing the exact same thing repeatedly. It's beyond ironic that he's the one that XY is supposed to rely on, when he's proven the most unreliable character in the book... except maybe for TS Hou.
The specter of another "correct" option where he selflessly releases XY from her promise, ends their relationship himself and completely lets go of all hope of being with her (or, at the end of the novel, where he chooses to be TSZ's father and completely lets XY go in a similar way) seems like an illusion to me. The reality of XY's mindset and issues meant that she didn't want that. IMO, she would have felt abandoned and hurt and it would not have been this great fix that sent her down a path of healing that ultimately led her to resolve her issues. It would have been a case of noble idiocy that left both of them miserable.
The "correct" option was to never extract the promise in the first place. It's not like he didn't know the situation or his grandmother.
I'm repeating myself here I think, but my view is that, on the one hand, it is objectively a sad and lamentable thing that TSZ is left to live out the rest of his childhood (and adulthood) without a proper parental figure when TSJ was still alive and capable of filling that role, but chooses not to. On the other hand, there are a lot of factors that lead me to sympathize with TSZ and XY's decision. I don't view it in such black and white terms.
This is maybe opening a can of worms, but maybe an XL related example can help give a sense of how I feel about nuance.
When XL breaks the branch that WXL was holding in chapter 4 and intentionally causes her to fall out of a tall tree, resulting in her legs being badly injured, that is objectively Not Good behaviour. But many readers / viewers are able to watch that scene and take contextual factors into consideration (e.g., WXL provoked XL and requested this meeting with the intent of diffusing his temper, expected to receive some kind of retaliation, and was satisfied with the outcome) in order to reach the conclusion that XL shouldn't be written off completely for that objectively Not Good behaviour. Those readers / viewers choose not to view the scene in black and white terms.
Those hardly compare -- XL wasn't selfishly sacrificing an innocent. And the story itself shows us that Jing abandoning his nephew / son for selfish reasons (and XY going along with it) is bad. Neither CX or XY wouldn't have experienced their trauma if CX's mother hadn't abandoned him by selfishly killing herself for love.
IMO, TSJ did set some boundaries. But he wasn't willing to take ruthless measures against his family.
Again. The first boundary he should have set was around himself and his desires. He wouldn't be in this situation if he hadn't extracted the prison promise. Being ruthless doesn't mean killing any one. Jing is supposed to be extremely smart and the best at getting a deal, and yet he couldn't figure out a way to get out of this mess? He could have just renounced everything and gone back to being 17, or at least threatened to do so.
So, this is one of the posters for the show. I love the little red "bean" -- reminds me of the discussion about that thing was and all the botany research. :)
For some reason I ignored the text the first time I saw it. So, I tried to translate the part that wasn't in characters...
Àn xiāngsī wú chù shuō
暗相思无处说
Secret lovesickness has nowhere to say.
I wonder if they mean, 'nothing' instead of 'nowhere' ? Also, I'm not sure what the rest of the text says.
So, this is one of the posters for the show. I love the little red "bean" -- reminds me of the discussion about that thing was and all the botany research. :)
For some reason I ignored the text the first time I saw it. So, I tried to translate the part that wasn't in characters...
Àn xiāngsī wú chù shuō暗相思无处说
Secret lovesickness has nowhere to say.
I wonder if they mean, 'nothing' instead of 'nowhere' ? Also, I'm not sure what the rest of the text says.
Secret lovesickness, nowhere to say it, melancholy comes in the misty moon at night. ——Wei Zhuang's "Ying Tianchang·Bie Lai Half Year Old Music Book Jue"
So, this is one of the posters for the show. I love the little red "bean" -- reminds me of the discussion about that thing was and all the botany research. :)
For some reason I ignored the text the first time I saw it. So, I tried to translate the part that wasn't in characters...
Àn xiāngsī wú chù shuō暗相思无处说
Secret lovesickness has nowhere to say.
I wonder if they mean, 'nothing' instead of 'nowhere' ? Also, I'm not sure what the rest of the text says.
暗相思，无处说，惆怅夜来烟月。
Àn xiāngsī, wú chù shuō, chóuchàng yèlái yān yuè.
Secretly feeling lovesickness, but having nowhere to say it. I feel melancholy in the misty moonlight at night.
唐韦庄的《应天长·别来半岁音书绝》
It's a quote from Wei Zhuang (韦庄). He was a poet from the Tang Dynasty and he wrote this book of songs, I think: "Ying Tianchang Bie Lai Ban Sui Yin Shu Jue"
And they jingger always say xy and Jing is love from start to finish. If it is love, then all of TH's statements are inconsistent regarding the framework of the novel Lost you forever.
"in this world, love is soul-stirring, but it is not everything in life. Family, friendship, ideals, responsibilities... People have all kinds of ties in the world, and there is also a lot of happiness that does not come from love."
Honestly, I don't expect Tong Hua to be absolutely consistent in interviews and appearances across a decade. That said, this quote definitely is examined throughout the book, which remained consistent, even with the revision, I believe.
If xy and Jing is love, xy shouldn't fight for it(yaojing), because TH said that love isn't everything, that means she has to give up that love for another more important bond, right? So love is not suitable for yaojing..it is a deep bond that is other than romantic love. I think..^^
Hmmmm. I'm not sure.
About XY leaving TSZ in the end, it also doesn't match TH's statement. but at least xy once said it, if she had children she would never leave them.hmmm...maybe because Tsz wasn't her biological child? And Jing is not the beloved husband who was said to have died? please don't take it seriously ^^
XY says a lot of things ... that aren't necessarily true. But yes, apparently it's only her children that she's concerned about.
And they jingger always say xy and Jing is love from start to finish.
They probably can't understand some lines when she decided to bin him, realizing that she could not rely on anyone or wait for anyone. And she told CX that at that time she did not know that falling could required only one party but living together needed both. Haha, who was the "1 party", who fell in love with whom? Did she fall in the same pit?
And then they said that she was forced to make poison for XL because he threatened her and she feared of him. Haha:she was probably so scared that she put her thought, her emotion into each poison she made for him. She even asked her "beloved" boyfriend - Jing to draw butterfly nicely so that she could made poison in the shape of butterfly which is considered to represent for her. :D and then sent it to him for consuming
And Jingers interpreted her thought of XL stemmed from missing her mother etc...
EDIT
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