H19279:
@Liddi
does it mean similar to the chapter tittle with this combination
误生死作相思 = 错将生死作相思after finishing Once Promised i also consider to read 步步惊心. However after hearing about the love motif which is sad, similar to LYF, I decided to skip.
Yeah... I guess this is probably more similar to the title than 免教生死作相思。
after finishing Once Promised i also consider to read 步步惊心. However after hearing about the love motif which is sad, similar to LYF, I decided to skip.
Please read 步步惊心。It was her first novel (and my introduction to her works) and the drama is exactly what an adaptation should be - true to the source material in every way that matters. It is brutal, and I would argue perhaps even more heartbreaking than 长相思 - with its pervading sense of futility and ultimately, despair, even more heartbreaking when seen in a strong, decisive and prudent character like Ruoxi. The two lines in the poem perfectly encapsulates her mindset towards the end:
第一最好不相见，如此便可不相恋
第二最好不相知，如此便可不相思
First, it is best not to have met each other, so that we would not fall in love
Second, it is best not to have known each other, so that we would not miss each other
Same, same. I've been finding solace in fan fiction. Unfortunately, with the leak script, I have not been feeling too kindly towards Xiao Yao so can't even use fanfiction right now. Boo! Have you seen this gif from Elise? It's a little bit of silliness to remind us that it's just fiction :-)HeadInTheClouds:
Funnily enough, my sadness has never really been solely due to the drama itself, though TJC is the definitive Xiang Liu for me. I went in accepting the novel ending and thought I would be able to handle it. But the in-depth discussions here as we unearth more and more gems, angles, and hidden lines (@windiaaa041293 pretty much started that part of it with her sharing of articles about the mysterious "snake in grass, line on dust" technique which took me such a long time to finally figure out what it was!) end up triggering new pain, just when I thought I am well past that stage.
Fishmonger Xiang Liu is the new coping mechanism for my daughter and myself (she has it downloaded on her phone for posterity). I kindly offered to go to all the local wet markets armed with a megaphone, and do a roll-call for all fishmongers with "Liu" in their name, long white hair, a propensity for white flowing clothes, their personal plane, boat or submarine. Not sure why she was not particularly impressed with that suggestion.
But the in-depth discussions here as we unearth more and more gems, angles, and hidden lines (@windiaaa041293 pretty much started that part of it with her sharing of articles about the mysterious "snake in grass, line on dust" technique which took me such a long time to finally figure out what it was!) end up triggering new pain, just when I thought I am well past that stage.liddi:
why has it made you more pain or triggered new pain?
I think many reader feel sorry for XL because of his selfless love and because many thought XY never knew what he had done for her, how much he loved her. The more traces that we found from "snake in grass, line on dust) the more it shows deep love and longing from XY for him.
It's pity that both people who loved each other so much could not be together. However, knowing XY's feeling (by the readers, or maybe XL could understood her mind too), it is a kind of comfort for him that he was loved and he made the best choice within his ability to fullfil the wishes of the one who he loved and loved him too.
So far, I don't like drama XY so much. She seems to be too emotional to Jing (much more than my comprehension from the novel. I can understand because the drama aims to have kind of Jing-Yao 1:1). I feel more sympathy with novel XY.
why has it made you more pain or triggered new pain?
In the past, I always knew Xiao Yao loved Xiang Liu - this was obvious from the lovers bug and its lack of retaliation over 130 years, her mute appeal through the crystal globe, her refusal to answer that last question, the tenderness and intimacy in her interactions with him, especially after the 37 years. Still, the extent of Xiao Yao's feelings remained far more obscure for me, because we see her obvious affectionate, openly verbal interactions with Jing, as opposed to Xiang Liu. However, the symbolism of the moon, the realisation whom she was really waiting for at Jade Mountain as she absently plucked the peach blossoms while staring out at Jade Lake, the significance of Lie Yang's similarity in appearance through her disappointment after waking up, and crying together while getting drunk on her wedding day, even the simple fact that they rode on one winged mount after the 37 years as opposed to individual mounts before... All this and more just twists the knife in that much deeper, because it drives home that their love was true and unchanging, and yet, fate would not let them be together, and he would still do his best to ensure that she never found out the extent of everything he did for her.
So far, I don't like drama XY so much. She seems to be too emotional to Jing (much more than my comprehension from the novel. I can understand because the drama aims to have kind of Jing-Yao 1:1). I feel more sympathy with novel XY
Agreed. Xiao Yao's reactions in the drama are less sympathetic. To this day, I still hate watching the scene with Fangfeng Bei in her chambers, because we know from the novel how that scene should have played out, one that showed the extent of Xiao Yao's feelings for him, not to mention them sleeping together, a decision Xiao Yao consciously made, rather than just being conveniently unconscious at the time.
I went in accepting the novel ending and thought I would be able to handle it. But the in-depth discussions here as we unearth more and more gems, angles, and hidden lines (@windiaaa041293 pretty much started that part of it with her sharing of articles about the mysterious "snake in grass, line on dust" technique which took me such a long time to finally figure out what it was!) end up triggering new pain, just when I thought I am well past that stage.
All this and more just twists the knife in that much deeper, because it drives home that their love was true and unchanging, and yet, fate would not let them be together, and he would still do his best to ensure that she never found out the extent of everything he did for her.
It's the same for me. Loved this character from way back, but the in-depth discussion here unearths new angles and brings a deeper appreciation and liking for the character. I think discovering details that there was genuine love on both sides makes the loss of what could have been that much more bitter. Not to mention how much suffering and sacrifice he made.
For example, the 37 years that he spent healing her would have taken a massive toll on him. Stabbing himself in the heart every month to feed her his blood while still having to take care of the resistance army and all of the other responsibilities. The novel described nights when Xiao Yao couldn't detect his breathing, suggesting that he was probably in a state of hibernation to heal from whatever injuries he sustained :-( (And Jing slept all the while, of course).
All of this means I feel more protective of him - this is rare for me. The more protective I feel towards him, the less patience I have for Xiao Yao (unfair, I know, since she also suffered) although I stick by my original stance that I don't blame her for the outcome of their relationship. My feeling for Xiao Yao is a combination of annoyance and pity. Annoyance because she didn't dare to face her heart and pity for the very same reason :-).
Fishmonger Xiang Liu is the new coping mechanism for my daughter and myself (she has it downloaded on her phone for posterity). I kindly offered to go to all the local wet markets armed with a megaphone, and do a roll-call for all fishmongers with "Liu" in their name, long white hair, a propensity for white flowing clothes, their personal plane, boat or submarine. Not sure why she was not particularly impressed with that suggestion.
It's nice that you guys are bonding over the shared pain of Xiang Liu's ending. I can imagine her shooting daggers at you for that suggestion :-)
To this day, I still hate watching the scene with Fangfeng Bei in her chambers, because we know from the novel how that scene should have played out, one that showed the extent of Xiao Yao's feelings for him, not to mention them sleeping together, a decision Xiao Yao consciously made, rather than just being conveniently unconscious at the time.
Hate this entire scene in the drama. Her attitude, his reaction. Everything was off. It sends vibes that he loves her and she doesn't give a toss. I know you don't agree that the script is pushing for Xiang Liu's feelings to be coded as unrequited, but I can't agree with that when scenes like this exist + all of the other changes.
why has it made you more pain or triggered new pain?
I think many reader feel sorry for XL because of his selfless love and because many thought XY never knew what he had done for her, how much he loved her. The more traces that we found from "snake in grass, line on dust) the more it shows deep love and longing from XY for him.
It's pity that both people who loved each other so much could not be together. However, knowing XY's feeling (by the readers, or maybe XL could understood her mind too), it is a kind of comfort for him that he was loved and he made the best choice within his ability to fullfil the wishes of the one who he loved and loved him too.
For me, all of this is a double-edged sword. Like I mentioned above it brought with it extra bitterness and regret for what could have been. However, the confirmation of her deep love for him also brings comfort. This is why the changes in the leaked script don't sit well with me.
So far, I don't like drama XY so much. She seems to be too emotional to Jing (much more than my comprehension from the novel. I can understand because the drama aims to have kind of Jing-Yao 1:1). I feel more sympathy with novel XY.
Agreed. Xiao Yao's reactions in the drama are less sympathetic.
I agree with your feelings about novel vs. drama Xiao Yao. Novel Xiao Yao is extra pitiful with all the details that we uncovered in our in-depth discussion. I feel like Tong Hua is very cruel to Xiao Yao. She put Xiao Yao through the ringer and didn't even give her a true happy ending. That "not a tragedy" line is just a mask. Xiao Yao has to deal with the dead weight that is Jing (I did a 180 with this character on re-read), while also having to deal with her yearning and regret for Xiang Liu. As we mentioned previously, it's like Tong Hua is punishing her for not having the courage to face her heart.
Novel Xiao Yao also has some depth, which the drama removed by eliminating all the internal conflict between her fear of being abandoned/alone and the pull of her heart in their effort to push for the YaoJing pairing as 1:1. The result is that I don't have much sympathy for drama Xiao Yao. I find her shallow and thoughtless. Watching the scene of her fawning all over the sleeping Jing after coming back from 37 years under the sea, just makes me think that she's flighty and faithless.
Xiao Yao's meeting with Ah Heng at the end of the novel is interesting. My impression was that Ah Heng didn't care for Jing, Ah Heng had experienced a strong and passionate love, and could probably sense that Xiao Yao's feelings for him were not what they should be. What kind of question is "Is there no one else that treats you well?" when you've just been introduced to your daughter's fiancee? One gets the feeling, that what Ah Heng left unsaid was "Is there no one else that treats you well, whom you love?" However, what can Ah Heng say when she was the one who inadvertently created this psychological wound in Xiao Yao that led her to be fearful of abandonment, resulting in settling for a companion who won't ever leave her?
I wondered about that question from her mom Ah Heng also. Like you said, it doesn't sound exactly like she's impressed with Jing ... or maybe the vibe from XY in her interactions with Jing. I mean, I still can't believe she wanted to wait 40+ years to marry until she finished with her medical stuff.
The most damaging aspect was the complete lack of female companionships in the novel. No mother or aunty. Ah Nian was too immature. Xing Yue wasn't a true, close friend that Xiao Yao could confide in. The remaining women are servants. Is it any wonder that Xiao Yao followed Tian Er's relationship philosophy when she was the only female Xiao Yao talked to about male/female relationships?
This is so true! But then again, she spent most of her time before meeting XL as a man. And she did have men friends ... or maybe companions, like Lau Mu. And surely she had friends from before then. And didn't she actually live at a casino for a while?
Poor girl really didn't have anyone to talk to or give her guidance about the matter of the heart.
Xiao Yao spent her early life fending for survival, whatever emotional development she had was minimal. All she knew was to fulfil the most basic needs for security and safety - food, shelter and companionship. So when she experiences the stirring of romantic love, it is foreign and confusing and she doesn't know how to manage it. particularly with the extra dimension of "forbidden love".
I agree with this take ... but isn't Xiang Liu in the same boat? True he doesn't have abandonment issues, but he has his own set of issues. Is this just a matter of difference of personalities?
I mean, I still can't believe she wanted to wait 40+ years to marry until she finished with her medical stuff.Kokuto:
This is quite telling about her feelings for Jing, isn't it? The other aspect that careful reading of the novel suggested, was that she was trying to get over Xiang Liu during this 40 years delay.
This is so true! But then again, she spent most of her time before meeting XL as a man. And she did have men friends ... or maybe companions, like Lau Mu. And surely she had friends from before then. And didn't she actually live at a casino for a while?
She spent most of her life as a man in other male company which means that her exposure to female companionships was highly restricted so her development in this arena was even more stunted. Men and women experience life very differently and their view and approach to relationships are different as well. Do you remember her conversation with one of her "adopted" brothers about the purpose of a wife? Wen Xiao Liu put it down to the crudest, most basic need of fulfilling sexual urges.
This reminded me of the exchange between her and Jing outside the Bone Prison after her meeting with Xiang Liu and refusing to "kiss" him. She basically said that all men want to do is take women to bed and take their clothes off. Did she sees Xiang Liu insistence on "kissing" her in that light, and want to confirm this with Jing?
Xiao Yao may be more comfortable as Wen Xiao Liu because being a man was something that she had a lot of experience in, but once she returned to being a woman, I wonder if that required adjustment.
I agree with this take ... but isn't Xiang Liu in the same boat? True he doesn't have abandonment issues, but he has his own set of issues. Is this just a matter of difference of personalities?
Personality differences is one of the factors. Another difference between them that might have resulted in their different approach is that Xiang Liu was born and grew up with nothing. So whatever he received he treasured, and he isn't so fearful of losing because he already been there and knew that he will be able to deal with it. His personality plays a role here as well, since others in the same circumstances might have been even more fearful of losing what they've gained.
Xiao Yao, on the other hand, experienced loss in her childhood so she operates from a loss-minimization framework - always worrying that she will once again lose what she gain. Xiao Yao also has no confident that she will able to deal with her losses and come out on the otherside.
Their differences are evidence in two exchanges: 1) For Xiang Liu as long as there are beautiful sights, life is worth living. For Xiao Yao, that's not enough. She needs to have someone to share those sights with. 2) Xiang Liu mentioned that Xiao Yao placed too much importance on gains and losses. This hampered her ability at archery, but it could also be applied to her life at large. Weighing up the gains and losses, needing absolute certainty before making a decision. Life doesn't work like that, Your decisions will get made for you in the time that it took you to decide on one.
In short, Xiang Liu find joy in the simplest things without conditions attached, whereas Xiao Yao needs certain conditions to be met. This probably applies to their relationship as well. Xiang Liu might have been content with a short, tempory union before heading to his ultimate outcome, while for Xiao Yao, that's not enough. And the result is what we got.
You mentioned that XY needed that extra assurance to walk towards him. What extra assurance can he provide when he already showed the ultimate commitment by than willing tied his fate to her, a useless low spiritual level good. She might not know that part at the start due to fate but she definitely knew that he basically stabbed himself in the heart over 400 times for her, and this was before she thought it was a transaction. I don't think it was him holding her back. If she persisted, I doubt he would push her away. She just wanted the easy safe road. For that reason I don't pity her much.MengXiang:
I wrote about who out of the two of them was "responsible" for the outcome of their relationship here
What extra reassurance does Xiao Yao need? Who knows. She engaged in a lot of willful ignorance and self-deception as forms of self-protection. She is very fearful and "cowardly" in the matter of the heart. A part of her wants to take steps towards him, but she's looking for confirmation from him - through conversation and that crystal ball. When he doesn't give her the response that she's looking for. she back off (usually back to Jing). Would an "I love you, let's be together" from him be enough? Maybe. But like I said in the linked post above. Once that obstacle is removed, she will have to deal with the bigger obstacles of their separate loyalty and his ultimate ending.
A lot of us are probably the same. If we are making a big decision that we're unsure of, we'll go to our sounding board - the group of people that we know and trust to talk things through and get support for our decision. Xiao Yao didn't have that. She had no support system when it came to her feelings for Xiang Liu. So it's up to her to make the decision, and unfortunately, with her psychological wounds, she's incapable of it. So she looked to Xiang Liu for reassurance and confirmation. And when he didn't give them to her, she backed off. Poor girl.
I truly believe the story is a tragedy as no one truly got what they actually wanted, just what they thought they wanted. It's more a cautionary tale.
Yes, this is my take on the story as well. It's a cautionary tale that unless you face your fears and appropriately deal with them, you will live in a state of uncertainty and insecurity - that's XY all through LYF. Ultimately, it might lead to many regrets - Xiao Yao at the end of LYF. As I said, the novel Xiao Yao is quite pitiful.
windiaaa041293:
@liddi
Maybe this will add to the long list of pain from being stabbed by a knife multiple times if @liddi believes his analysis:Jing's hair, shampoo, hibiscus leaves, hibiscus flowers, and Cao Aoling.
˚‧º·(˚ ˃̣̣̥᷄⌓˂̣̣̥᷅ )‧º·˚
I remember the theory that she started paying attention to hibiscus flowers because it reminded her of the dye Xiang Liu used as Fangfeng Bei. Cao Ao summit - that would be where she washed Jing's hair with shampoo created from hibiscus leaves soaked in water. I am not very convinced yet by this theory... but certainly, every new detail we learn just snowballs to make the pain worse than ever.
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