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Analysis, Insights & Info Thread *SPOILERS*

MusicalVeggies

Some users here have been posting interesting comments about this complex and layered show and I thought it would be such a shame to lose them if they eventually get buried under various comments so I'm consolidating them under this thread. 

From @Kino-san:

"Now that some users are able to view the movie, I can maybe start posting some translations of interviews and tibits from the director that explains some scenes in the movie. Because there's a lot of hidden meanings in these scenes of the movie.

In one scene Imagase is watching a very old french movie by by himself before Kyouichi comes home the name of this movie is Jean Cocteau’s movie “Orpheus” (1950). Here's an interview I roughly translated from the movie booklet v1 (which is rare and cost me a lot of money to get my hands on it) to which director Yukisada Isao explains why he decided to include this movie in the scene.

https://kino-san.tumblr.com/post/640298863633268736/the-cornered-mouse-dreams-of-cheese-from-the 

I mean if anyone is interested in reading it might give some context to the scene, I do it to get better at Japanese but I did this translation a while ago before I watched the movie so it may not be 100% correct."

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MusicalVeggies

From @Ximy:

"I had to read the two volumes of the manga again, to make sure i get a good grasp of what can happen/or could not happen in the time between scenes that the movie couldn't show, because the manga series is so long, even by making a sequel after this movie is not enough to adapt everything that happens in the manga. But adapting the manga faithfully is not needed most of the time.
In some way, it will get to predictable to watch for the manga fans, and will not necessary make for a better viewing experience, because some things, cute, fluffly moments or irealistic fights will not be that easy to adapt in a movie/or appear too cringy, if they are not changed to be added in a context a bit more serious or some scenes being toned town. And for the viewers who didn't read the manga, the movie will not make sense or not be able to be fully understod if some filling or to realistic scenes are not cut and some new scenes that can bound the continuity of the scenes are not added.


I'm writing as a huge fan of asian bl and lgbt movies and series for many years, i watched so many non-bl asian movies/ series soo many years that at some point i couldn't enjoy them anymore at the same level than before, and then many years ago i stumbled over asian bl movies, that was my starting point, and for then on i couldn't help myself but watch more and more, and i was so disapointed over and over by the quality of some movies/dramas produced or the superficial writing of the relationships, that it's impossible not to become picky over what i chose to watch nowadays.


What i want to say is, i'm sure that this movie will let very different impressions in people, based of how long they are exposed to Japan bl/lgbt movies over the years, and what experiences they have for watching bl movies from othe countries, and for the viewers who are part of the lgbtq community.


In my perspective, this movie is the best made bl/lgbt japanese movie made until now. It has almost everything that the others movies didn't dare to show or exagerate about the lifestyle of gay people. It shows how much the lifestyle and past experiences as a gay man impacted Imagase , and show us how much he struggles between the part of him that is trying to trust Kyouchi when he finally gives in to him, or when it appears to him that he wants to get serious with him and the part that wants to go away, because even if Kyouchi is saying he wants them to be serious this time and even move together if i heard right, he just told him before that he wanted to get married to his girlfriend, it's normally that he freaked out, and left for a while. Even through the movie didn't end with them being reunited like in the manga, even in the manga Imagase left, he didn't trust that Kyoichi love for him is strong enough to break up with his girlfriend. Even when i read the manga, Imagase has a lot of things to work on and i tought that Kyoichi had'it too easily. This ending is more realistic and it ended with the strong resolution of Kyoichi that the next time when Imagase will return to him, he will make sure that he will not hurt Imagase like before, and will making up for what he did. Both the characters where so messed up in their own way in the manga, and the movie despicted very well the insecure and low confidence that Imagase has when it comes to his relationship with Kyouichi.


The movie showed everything, from how Imagase knows that part of his insecurity comes from the fact that Kyoichi is being able to have sex, love and marry a woman, and how from his experience the majority of gay man or who wants to experience with men, will never chose a man over a woman, and especially because Kyoichi showed him with his actions many times, to only be content by being with him sometimes, nothing more. The pressure Imagase has over his shoulders is huge, and Kyoichi hurt him over and over again with big and small gestures, and Kyoichi knows that, he knows that he is a big part of the reason why Imagase left, so i think it's only right that it's his turn to break up to his fiancee, and have no other options while waiting for Imagase, to prove to viewers and him that, from now on he will do things right.


Those who watched other bl japanese movies knows that this movie showed many things that other movies until now did not dare to show in depth, or superficially showed, like :


- a man who can go a long way to love another man , and chosing him over a woman, and to make the matter more serious, the woman here is a fiancee who he already meet his parents. Until now, the movies didn't dare touching this subject so well, it gives hopes to the lgbt community and a feeling of awe and admiration , happines for Imagase, you did well, all you did was worth it.


-how hard it is for gay people to feel secure in a relationship, to create a home together, how it takes much more time, effort and problems to resolve, things to think through. I think this movie showed that, much better than other jap bl movie until now.


-it touched the matter of how some gay men are so used of treating men as a one night stand, or meeting other people only for sex, than is not easy to become open again or have the confidence that their partner loves them enough to not be abandoned again for another man or because they could get married. The reality is probably much more harsh, than what is showed here. I felt for Imagase everytime that he showed sorrow because be knew that is falling harder with every moment he spent more with Kyoushi, and even through he tried to prepare his heart, he knew he can do nothing than to expect the hurt that will be coming.


Even through the movie adapted the story for the manga quite faithfully, by making some change in the behaviour of the characters and omitting somecute, exagerated scenes from the manga, it's the only movie adapted from a manga, that managed to make the character as being real life persons, that i wish i could meet someday. From the bl movies/series made last year, only this movie, and the movie Restart After Come Back Home made me feel this way, for Cherry Magic!, the characters are too well written, almost without big flaws, so it felt a bit unrealistic some time to watch.


The character of Imagase is more memorable, because he is the one that has more complexity, and the actor Narita, is the actor who is more expressive, i felt that the movie would not be half as good if it was another actor casted, he is the character that adds the most charm to the movie. But i liked the portrayal of Kyoichi the same or even a bit more than Imagase, because i like the actor more, and he is very good when he plays this type of character, he managed to touch me with the emotion in his eyes, if looked closely, we can see in the subtle expressions and in his eyes what he s feeling, especially in that conversation after they have sex for the second time, i can feel how hard it was to him to tell his real feelings to Imagase, we can see he got emotional when he told Imagase that he will be with him from now on, and break up with his fiancee. He looked so defeated, like he realised he can't help it anymore,and he has to express his feelings to Imagasi, he has to accept him completely in his life.


The chemistry between the characters is so good, like i'm serious, i watched almost all the bl movies from Japan, and those kisses and sex scenes are one of the most natural ones, it's only a bit awkward at the beginning until Kyoichi become comfortable with being intimate with Imagase. And those intimacy scenes are very well done, in the way that it showing how the fellings between them are changing, in every new sexual scene they are more eager, and are showed wanting each other in a new level. Japanese movies are in general good when it comes with detail like this.
I appreciated a lot the details from the manga, that were added to the movie, like; it was raining when they have sex for the same time, that chair that was used mostly by Imagase( even through it was not from the manga), and the ashtray.


I wish other bl fans will become a bit more pretentious and not accept happily, everything that asian countries is producing every year, we should expect that the stories adapted/scripts made are more and more diverse and the production quality improves, not staying the same or going backwards, and i hope i see that being expressed in comments too, we shouldn't be too easy to please."

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MusicalVeggies

Q from a user: Why they have to separate though first they didn't have someone in the way?

From @Ximy:

"I will try to explain to you a bit more. For the prople who read the manga this question will never come to our mind because it gives much more insight of their relationship, and we can easily deduce why he left. So, he left because of various reasons, it's not an easy question to answer.
First, because Imagase didn't felt that until that moment(that night), Kyoichi has showed him that he love him enough, that he will be willing to seriously want to be together with him. He didn't think he will really break up with Tamaki, even if he told him he will, and he wanted to give him a way out by leaving, so if he didn't really mean'it to break up with her, then he can put the blame on him, when he will chose her.


Basically, he didn't trust him enough, i mean, imediately after they break up, he got together with Tamaki, then when he wanted to come back to his life, initialy he told him that he will not accept him as his lover, because he don't want to cheat on Tamaki, but after some time, he still accept him back and cheated Tamaki by geting together with him, he was still washywashy like always. When Kyouchi made'up his mind, Imagase accepted to only be the person he will sleep some time, it took him by surprise by what he said, it give him hope again, after he desperately tried to kill that hope and any expectation he had of Kyouchi.


The second reason is because his confidence in the fact that Kyouchi will come to love him was crushed repeatedly by him in the past, he didnt felt he has enough to offer or that he was good enough for Kyouchi to chose to be him. In conclusion, like the person who replied before said, he was his own enemy, and who can blame him, he had his heart hurt a lot by Kyouchi."

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MusicalVeggies

Now here comes my own contributions to this Discussion thread...

I found some of the subtle symbolisms in this show fascinating. One of them is clothes. It's interesting how Imagase likes to wear Ootomo's clothes. It's like his way of trying to get close to, and belong to, Ootomo.

E.g. underwear

  Pyjamas

Later, after Ootomo accepted Imagase (after their first sex), they even wore each other's jackets out. I thought it was a clever way to show Ootomo mirroring/ reciprocating Imagase here. 

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MusicalVeggies

Another thing that interested me was the body language or behavioural cues:

E.g. I found it very telling how Ootomo chose to sit right next to Imagase at the restaurant, and not next to Natsuki. It was a subconscious way of saying that he was already aligning himself with Imagase; and by sitting opposite Natsuki, it gave off minor confrontational/ opposing vibes. Natsuki should have taken the hint here if she had paid attention. 


- After their first sex, Ootomo bought Imagase expensive wine in addition to making dinner reservations. At the beginning of the movie when one of Ootomo's colleagues asked him what he would normally get his wife for a wedding anniversary, Ootomo replied that he would book a table at a restaurant she liked (Imagase: tick) and maybe a small present too (but Imagase got a Big and Expensive present: double tick). Ootomo was serious about the relationship - more serious about it than when he was married.


- The first time Ootomo found Imagase looking through his phone, he was very angry over the invasion of privacy but after their first sex, I found it interesting how when he found Imagase snooping through his phone again, he just chose to lie back down and let Imagase do whatever he wanted. It's almost like Ootomo was saying: "It's fine, I know you're paranoid so I'll let you look because I've got nothing to hide. I hope you'll feel more at ease after going through my phone and finding nothing."

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MusicalVeggies

The sex positions were also very telling:

- The 1st time it was Imagase taking the lead and Ootomo giving in to him. Ootomo had decided to finally accept this relationship with Imagase and so by letting Imagase top him, it was a subtle sign of submission and acceptance. 


- But the 2nd time, it was Ootomo who took the lead and topped Imagase. You could see Ootomo's proactiveness, desperation and hunger for Imagase in this scene. One could see his driving need to possess Imagase and that finger lacing bit right at the end... how much he wanted to knit Imagase to him. 

I wasn't surprised to later see Ootomo quickly decide to break off with Tamaki when Imagase asked him to. It was so obvious that Ootomo had already decided that the person he wanted in his life was Imagase. From a passive Ootomo, he's now become the active pursuer. I love how we can see his change in character and mindset. 

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MusicalVeggies

The gay bar scene:

I LOVED this scene. It wasn't in the manga but I loved how they included it here because it literally screams Ootomo's desperation.

The thing is, Ootomo has always been very conscious of the fact that he's not gay, unlike Imagase. He mentioned in an earlier restaurant scene that his world (the non-gay world) is different from Imagase's world (the gay world) and how Imagase's ex-boyfriend would be a better fit for Imagase because they were both gays. But despite knowing that he (Ootomo) does not belong to Imagase's world, he (Ootomo) still chose to be with Imagase and have a proper relationship with him (hence their first sex). But after Imagase told Ootomo that Ootomo was not right for him and that he (Imagase) was not right for Ootomo, Ootomo realised that even if he tried to make the relationship work, it still wouldn't work out because they were from different worlds. He could not satisfy Imagase the way a proper gay man might and this ate at him.

So... you have that trip to the gay bar where I think Ootomo decided to try and see what Imagase's gay world was like and if he could become part of it. But after being there, Ootomo soon realised that he really didn't belong there. He wasn't a gay man and he couldn't be part of Imagase's world. That was why he broke down into tears and wept. He realised that even if he wanted to, he couldn't enter Imagase's world and be like him and satisfy him, no matter how much he might want to. The fact that Ootomo wasn't gay and couldn't meet Imagase's needs made him realise that Imagase was right - they weren't suitable for each other.

One can see just how desperate Ootomo was to want to be able to meet Imagase on equal terms, and how upset he was when he thought it was not possible. This was why afterwards he then decided to try and move on by starting a new life on the non-gay track i.e. by getting engaged to Tamaki and hoping that after a while the gaping hole Imagase left behind would slowly be filled. 

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Ximmich

Q:  What is the ending in the manga?? 

In the manga, after the conversation in the middle of the night between Kyoichi and Imagase, after they have sex for the second time , in the next morning they wake up together, they talk some more, and after Kyochi is telling Imagase again that he will go break up with Tamaki, he tells him to wait for him for him to come back until he will finish  to talk with Tamaki. 

While Kyoichi is breaking up with Tamaki, at first Imagase is waiting at the apartment, but he is getting anxious and is losing more and more confidence that Kyoichi will really have the strength to break up with Tamaki because of him, he throws the ashtray in the trash can and leaves ( it was related to Kyouchi too, because he was taking too long to come back, not only he encountered a traffic jam, the talk with Tamaki too much longer that he tought). 

Then, when Kyoichi returns to the apartment he don't find Imagase there, but it implied that he manages to see Kyouchi at the nearby bus stop from their apartment window, and he rushes to meet him. In the manga, Imagase left as well, but only until the bus stop, so he let him a way out to come to him when he comes back to the apartment. When they meet at the bus stop, they have another long  talk.  and here  or now is when they take the decision to move in together.  

The conversation that happens in the movie at night, include parts of conversation that in the manga took place not only in the night, but  in the morning, and at the bus stop too, this part is the one that many changes were made. In the manga,the conversation at the bus stop, when they are showed really ending up together is much more detailed and touching.

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MusicalVeggies

The final scene:

"If you truly love a person, they become your only exception."

Ootomo, a non-gay straight man, is willing to wait for his gay lover to return to him while forsaking all other heterosexual relationships. Imagase is Ootomo's only exception, which goes to show just how much Ootomo loves Imagase.

I love this last shot with all its symbolism. The ugly blue curtains are gone, the old curtains from his time with Imagase is back. The ashtray is cleaned and ready, sitting in central position on the coffee table indicating its primary importance and significance in the whole setup (it is not the ashtray itself that is important, it is what the ashtray represents that make it important). 

Ootomo sitting on Imagase's high chair is a throwback/ mirror to Imagase and his penchant for wearing Ootomo's clothes - occupying/ wearing a lover's belongings is a subconscious way of saying how much they want to be close to that person, to be a part of them, to be inside them. 

I already knew Ootomo was serious about Imagase after their first sex but here he takes his commitment and his resolute determination up another level:- the drifting samurai who used to be easily seduced by women is now a man who has made up his mind that he will have no one else but his one life's only exception. Even if the road ahead would be difficult and hard because he does not belong to Imagase's gay world, Ootomo is determined to do all in his power to make it work and build a bridge to cross both worlds. His silent waiting is a testament to the strength of his determination and resolution.

I personally found this last scene to be more impactful and powerful than the closing scene and conversations in the manga simply because Ootomo's firm conviction was so much more vividly displayed here. This is like a knock-out punch to the gut. 

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BraveAppointment1

Thank you for pulling together this compilation.   I have really conflicting feelings about this movie, and it was great to read the thoughtful perspectives in this thread.   (And you are completely right that I missed most of these perspectives from the general comments section, because they got buried.)  So thanks!

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Jmb19909

This is what I need after a movie like thissss!!!! Side note I’m not sure I agree 100 on it being hard fo OK cuz he didn’t fit in the gay world n that is what he ment by even if it’s hard he will stay. I think it had more to do with their personal flaws like not trusting each other and the fear of really connecting with your lover cuz he not really great at that and that’s what I feel was hurting Im the most. That he was not getting the love and attention/Reassurance that he needed and also that he was being pushed away. I think the bar was hard for him cuz it was a shock to the system. As a gay guy I can attest that the clubs can be a shock for anyone (the way the guys were acting towards him honestly I would’ve been uncomfortable  too and I’m very comfortable with my sexuality) let alone someone that is coming to terms with a new part of their sexuality or a part they may even suppressed.  But yeah I love u for all of this that u did!!! It gave me what I needed! Like a sig after a great grown up session LOL. I’m gonna look to see if u have more of these also I’ll be checking out the other movie u mentioned, restart I think it’s called

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Ximmich

@Jmb19909 , it was my pleasure. I am  the user named ximy before. I  want people to not underestimate this movie, because it`s really much better than all others movies Japan has made until now. I am   grateful that MusicalVeggies  initiated the ideea to start making this thread discussion, otherwise my comments would have been buried under the comment section.

In my opinion one of the most realistic  bl and lgbtq movies are made in Japan followed by South Korea. Japan is really on their element when they come to making as realistic movies and dramas as possible when they want to. 

So that`s why i want to recommend you some really realistic quality  movies and dramas  made by those countries, as they aren`t many.

From JAPAN, it has apart from The cornered mouse dreams of cheese:

- Life Sejou no bokura- it has a director cut version too.

-His (2020)- i didn`t really enjoyed it as i expected,  because of the actors, i wish they casted someone else, one of the main actors  is really not a good actor.

- Restart after come back home

- Pornographer  and Moon indigo. Pornographer should be watched first, even through is sort of a sequel, but it makes more sense this way. And the movie Pornographer playback that was released in Japan recently, but it will be available to international fans after at least 4 months for now

-  Seo No Gekiyaku- a brilliant movie from how  daring and psychological it is,  for people who don`t mind the forceful  acts at at the beginning of the movie, that is similarly with BDSM.

- No touching at all aka Doushitemo Furetakunai - this is one of the oldest made, the story can be a bit cliche, but is still worth watching in my opinion, as it can give people a nostalgic feeling. Is at realistic as it could be considering the story.

From  SOUTH KOREA

- the classic No Regret- It`s a really pity that Korea hadn`t made anything from those years back. Only recently they have started making again bl  web dramas, not all are in par with the ones from other countries, but is something.

-  To my star - this is the most realistic web drama Korea has made until now, i`m so proud of this country for doing this drama, after all these years.

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Jmb19909

Yeah I knew Japan was on another vibe when I saw No geki!!! Was blown away and that was one of the first movies like that I ever saw. Instant hit! I feel like the men my father loved was really good too never seen anything else like that. I’ve seen most of the ones u suggest but the ones I haven’t I will be checking out ASAP. I did like his just for the story alone n the relationships n growth everyone had. Very needed in real life. I even watched the mini show n thought that was good too. Both it n the movie just felt real not to flashy very believable n connected to how the world and the way “family” isn’t always what ppl think it should be. I’ve seen my star n really dug it n the relationships n interaction between the characters. I think other then getting to see good gay stuff I really like how Asian bl show the relationships of the characters and the interactions that they have and how they coexist with each other. I feel like it’s much more spiritual or deeper then what I’m used to in the USA. I feel here is very superficial and I rarely cry but with bl omg!!! The river of tears and I’m not a crier lol. Thanks for the suggestions I’ll definitely check them out

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Jmb19909

@ximmich I realized that I have watched no regret n the amount of yelling I did at the tv!!!! I wasn’t sad it made me upset n ready to fight back!! I’m so happy that the gay kids although they struggled n it was very hard on them fought back!!! I hate that it has to come to that but glad it did!!! Some  times u just have to show ppl that enough is enough n I won’t just let u abuse me! I’ll stand up for myself n the ones I love!!! FIGHT THE POWER!!! Lol

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Ximmich

@Jmb19909  Yes, you`re right. I remember i had a period  a lot of years back when i watched non-asian movies, a lot of them. But  i got tired easily of them and from then on i only watched asian bl movies and dramas. They were very similar, like the same formula used over and over and the majority of them depicted coming out stories, that it`s to be expected to resemble each other. Some of the movies that i remember now that i watched  is Watercolors and Geography club. Almost all of them explore the relationship between the characters  very superficially. And yes it definitely don`t make you cry, it`s just impossible, they are not that touching. 

 I almost cried while watching The cornered mouse dreams of cheese, i was so close, but i stoped myself. I remember SEI NO GEKIYAKU did make me cry and Life sejou no bokura and To my star was close, they definitely give me goosebumps hahaha. I really rarely cry when i watch movies and drama, so they have to be really good when i get goosepums, i`m about to cry or really manage to make me cry.

No my regret was one of the first asian movies i saw, and i remember i cried a lot, and it make me angry a lot, and anxious too, especially at the end when it looked it won`t end good. It was really good, but  i wouldn`t be able to rewatch it again, it was too angsty, while i do feel i can rewatch Cornered  mouse dream of cheese many times. I really like the actors in Cornered mouse, they are well known and acknowledged actors in japanese acting industry, if it wasn`t for their performance and how the film was shot, is just wonderful, i wouldn`t like the movie as much as i actually like it.  Restart after come back home has also popular and well known actors, and is a  good movie. Life sejou no bokura as well, is just really  realistic in the last eps, don`t mind the first ep, it gets better,  it  also has  good acting, and more importantly a high rewatch value.

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